The Euro Draft - QF - Team EAP vs Raees

[Gio]

Let's focus on our strengths and weaknesses:

• EAP is playing a narrow 4-3-3 with no proper width. We counter that by cancelling him out through the middle, creating oceans of space down the flanks.
• EAP has a shit hot front three. Just as well we've got an equally impressive defensive set-up - Kohler, Beckenbauer, Zebec - supported by Facchetti and Amoros on the flanks, tucking in when required, and midfield reinforcement for Rijkaard and Lerby. It's just a shame that EAP's main strength is countered by our own.
• The worst player on the park is Durkovic. He was a wing-back operating as a full-back here, desperately trying to come to terms with a Thierry Henry who made a laughing stock out of Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro and Paulo Maldini. And who is overlapping in support - only Giacinto Facchetti, perhaps the greatest wing-back of all time. That screams goals.

 

[antohan]

3) He's being played between Beckenbauer in a libero and Facchetti in a wing back role.

It's too big an ask from him here, esp with a prime Gullit there.

That's actually a very good point. With Facchetti and Beckenbauer at their best you wouldn't want that role to be makeshift, let alone against Gullit.

 

[antohan]

I'm pretty sure the no5 shirt he wore for Yugoslavia from the age of around 27 onwards was for the centre of defence. He has Central European International Cup and Euros experience and was widely regarded as a world-class centre-half . He was a left-sided monster, much like Facchetti, so is a perfect fit for the left side of a back three. Zebec is very quick, tall and excellent in the air - negating Gullit's strengths. Unfortunately for Gullit, it's another physically exceptional athlete he has to face which will nullify some of his qualities. We also have Facchetti tucking in as and when required, an even more impressive athlete than either Zebec or Gullit, and one who has plenty of experience playing centrally if required. Fantastic player Ruud Gullit, but stuck in an extremely tough battle here.

The number 5 is traditionally the centre-half/DM, not the centre of a three man defence (let alone the left).

I don't think anyone questions prime Zebec's ability to play there, the question is how he played at the Euros and the evidence that he would perform to the standard required is flimsy at best.

 

[coolredwine]

The worst player on the park is Durkovic. He was a wing-back operating as a full-back here, desperately trying to come to terms with a Thierry Henry who made a laughing stock out of Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro and Paulo Maldini. And who is overlapping in support - only Giacinto Facchetti, perhaps the greatest wing-back of all time. That screams goals.

 

[Gio]

That's actually a very good point. With Facchetti and Beckenbauer at their best you wouldn't want that role to be makeshift, let alone against Gullit.

There's nothing makeshift about it. Zebec largely played for Yugoslavia in the centre of defence from his late 20s. He was a revelation when he made the shift and has the Central European International Cup and Euros experience there to back it up.

And the key of all this is how he fits into that role. As I said earlier:

He was a left-sided monster, much like Facchetti, so is a perfect fit for the left side of a back three. Zebec is very quick, tall and excellent in the air - negating Gullit's strengths. Unfortunately for Gullit, it's another physically exceptional athlete he has to face which will nullify some of his qualities. We also have Facchetti tucking in as and when required, an even more impressive athlete than either Zebec or Gullit, and one who has plenty of experience playing centrally if required. Fantastic player Ruud Gullit, but stuck in an extremely tough battle here.

 

[Gio]

The number 5 is traditionally the centre-half/DM, not the centre of a three man defence (let alone the left).

I don't think anyone questions prime Zebec's ability to play there, the question is how he played at the Euros and the evidence that he would perform to the standard required is flimsy at best.

That's Yugoslavia's set-up. Miladinovic is the number 5 here. In the official video footage of the final they have a similar graphic, with the centre of defence occupied by the number 5 shirt.

 

[antohan]

That's Yugoslavia's set-up. Miladinovic is the number 5 here. In the official video footage of the final they have a similar graphic, with the centre of defence occupied by the number 5 shirt.

I trust Kicker more than I trust wiki tbh.

In any case, as I said on my very first post, I don't think it's miles off and I certainly do know he could play that role.

There's a performance question-mark though, a very large one, particularly for someone dealing with Gullit and flanked by a libero and attacking fullback.

I would agree it's as dangerous at the other end with Henry and Durkovic. I wouldn't be too worried with Blanc on that side, but it's Campbell. EAP has his CBs the wrong way around and that's the most monumental feckup I see on the pitch.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Given that he played in a WM kind of formation, he would have been a half back akin to a modern defensive mid if he was wearing that shirt.

In a 3-2-2-3 (the W-M, as you state as your example) the number five would've been worn by the centre half – that is, a player who was primarily a defender, but who could operate as either a CB (or a sweeper/libero/whathaveya) or a DM of sorts in modern parlance.

However, you can't pin down a particular player's actual role simply by looking at his number – that should go without saying, unless he sported a “1” on his back.

A CH in a W-M could be ultra defensive or more of a modern DM – depending on what sort of player he was and, of course, depending on what sort of opposition he faced.

But I'll give you this: Sporting a “5” clearly indicates that the player in question was not a fullback – that is, he probably (but it's impossible to say for sure) didn't operate as a left fullback (which Zebec did at times elsewhere) in either a 2-3-5 or a W-M.

To me, however, it seems as though the main purpose of this questioning is to cast doubt on Zebec's suitability for the role he has been given here, in this particular team – suggesting that he wasn't actually a CB, but rather a midfielder, for Yugoslavia in the Euro context, which is relevant here.

And that suggestion has no merit. If he played as a CH in the old W-M system you can't conclude that he was a midfielder and not a defender – that simply isn't the case. He may have operated as a hybrid CB/DM (in modern parlance), but how much he actually was A or B would have depended entirely on the circumstances.

 

[antohan]

The funny thing is Rijkaard is not supposed to be in midfield and Zebec in defence. Easy, swap them.

I'm joking

 

[coolredwine]

EAP has his CBs the wrong way around and that's the most monumental feckup I see on the pitch.

A monumental feck up of playing the players in their actual position, compared to the opposing team?

 

[Raees]

The funny thing is Rijkaard is not supposed to be in midfield and Zebec in defence. Easy, swap them.

I'm joking

Harms has already posted a pic, I have posted a match video of Rijkaard in midfield. Why should we swap?

Fecks sake

 

[Joga Bonito]

who made a laughing stock out of Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro and Paulo Maldini.

Nesta and Cannavaro yes. Not Maldini.

 

[Raees]

Nesta and Cannavaro yes. Not Maldini.

In the first minute he takes Maldini by surprise and hits the post from outside the box, and in the first minute he keeps drifting into the LB spot where Maldini is nowhere to be found.. seems to not want anything to do with him.

That said he does not come out of it as bad as the other two, not by a long shot.

 

[antohan]

A monumental feck up of playing the players in their actual position, compared to the opposing team?

A monumental feckup of playing them the wrong way around. Campbell is better suited to deal with Ibrahimovic and Blanc is better suited to be on that more dangerous side.

I don't give a rats about the silly claims that Blanc would struggle with pace, it's just painting Blanc to be the same that played for us well past his peak.

It's rather simple, Raees/Gio's most dangerous flank is his left (i.e. your right). Amoros won't trouble you too much and Campbell is good for dealing with Ibra. Your problem is Facchetti/Henry potentially doubling up on Durkovic, a battle he will lose regularly. Who the hell do you wan't on that side? "I am Sol Campbell" or a masterful reader of the game like Blanc?

The critical role in your defence is that right CB, he is the one who will defuse or catalyse dangerous situations through his decision-making. You want Blanc there, no two ways about it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm pretty sure the no5 shirt he wore for Yugoslavia from the age of around 27 onwards was for the centre of defence. He has Central European International Cup and Euros experience and was widely regarded as a world-class centre-half . He was a left-sided monster, much like Facchetti, so is a perfect fit for the left side of a back three. Zebec is very quick, tall and excellent in the air - negating Gullit's strengths. Unfortunately for Gullit, it's another physically exceptional athlete he has to face which will nullify some of his qualities. We also have Facchetti tucking in as and when required, an even more impressive athlete than either Zebec or Gullit, and one who has plenty of experience playing centrally if required. Fantastic player Ruud Gullit, but stuck in an extremely tough battle here.

@Raees

I'm not disputing with the kind of player Zebec is. The more I read about him, the more I'm awed.

But coming to this match:

- He had a 15 year career from 1945 till 1961 retirement. Which period do you consider his peak? Why?
- The CEIC in question went on for 5 years. Did his peak coincide with these 5 years? Which years were his CEIC peaks?
- Then lets take a look at matches he played in the Euro peak (must be 4-5 max) and see what position he played.

Alternatively, if you do not have those details, do you have any Awards, Team of the Tournament nominations etc that cover the same in generic terms?


Without clarity in any of the above, it's very difficult for me to argue. His role is very crucial to the whole match and I think it's critical we get this sorted out.

Tbh, I think this is a fair question from me. It is not meant to throw dirt or distract from your team.

 

[harms]

That's Yugoslavia's set-up. Miladinovic is the number 5 here. In the official video footage of the final they have a similar graphic, with the centre of defence occupied by the number 5 shirt.

I know that in USSR in 3-2-2-3, Netto was №6 and Voinov was №5 and they were half-backs, like here. It's a shit scheme, I see one mistake already - Ivanov and Metreveli should be swapped and Sekularac was arguably an outside-right in that game (that's Soviet media view, I failed to determine his position, they had a very fluid front unit). What's interesting - wiki lists Chokheli, Krutikov and Maslyonkin as defenders in USSR team, but only Jusifi and Durkovic as Yugoslavian (Miladinovic is a midfielder). Soviet media says that USSR is playing 1+3+2+5 (they count goalkeepers) and Yugoslavia as 3-3-4. Make of it what you want.

edit: ffs, there was a footage of 1960 final with Russian commentary and with better quality than what I watched earlier

 

[antohan]

Harms has already posted a pic, I have posted a match video of Rijkaard in midfield. Why should we swap?

Fecks sake

That pic is no use, it's the usual player profile done pre-tourno or that you get on sticker albums. Rijkaard played in midfield for Milan so it would be expected he would be listed as a midfielder, whatever his role in-game.

As said, his role in-game was a CB that pushed up and occasionally a DM that dropped into defence. Given you have linked that with Beckenbauer foraging forward I see no issue whatsoever there.

Where I do see an issue is in that four out of five defenders of yours were at their best transitioning to attack. Facchetti and Beckenbauer were obviously great defenders as well, but what made 4/5 of your defenders special was their execution of the transition from defence to attack. If you have them all playing to the best of their abilities I would worry about poor old Jurgen facing Puskas, Gullit and Kluivert. I would take Schwarzenbeck in that left CB role every day.

 

[Raees]

Spoiler: Alternative formation suggestion

@antohan .. thoughts? Zebec, Facchetti, Henry all down the same flank..

 

[coolredwine]

A monumental feckup of playing them the wrong way around. Campbell is better suited to deal with Ibrahimovic and Blanc is better suited to be on that more dangerous side.

I don't give a rats about the silly claims that Blanc would struggle with pace, it's just painting Blanc to be the same that played for us well past his peak.

It's rather simple, Raees/Gio's most dangerous flank is his left (i.e. your right). Amoros won't trouble you too much and Campbell is good for dealing with Ibra. Your problem is Facchetti/Henry potentially doubling up on Durkovic, a battle he will lose regularly. Who the hell do you wan't on that side? "I am Sol Campbell" or a masterful reader of the game like Blanc?

The critical role in your defence is that right CB, he is the one who will defuse or catalyse dangerous situations through his decision-making. You want Blanc there, no two ways about it.

Yes. Of course. But it's not as if Campbell is a mug either. He was a pretty good reader of the game himself. Plus, there are Schweinsteiger and Deschamps to help out as well. To avoid getting Durkovic doubled up. Not saying that I disagree with you, but it's too easy to say that Henry-Facchetti would double up and rip apart Durkovic without even giving them a chance.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

• The worst player on the park is Durkovic. He was a wing-back operating as a full-back here, desperately trying to come to terms with a Thierry Henry who made a laughing stock out of Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro and Paulo Maldini.

This is a bit much, my friend – surely?

I'll disregard the Henry praise (he was great in that final, but let's not go overboard either), but Durkovic portrayed as a wingback wrongly cast won't do. He was a fullback (back then) who liked to get forward – and who was good at it.

But he was primarily a defender – and a very good one at that. By current standards (for right backs) he was downright excellent. So – yeah: I simply ain't buying that one based on what I know about him (he played much the same role in '62, and he was anything but a shabby defender).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Spoiler: Alternative formation suggestion

@antohan .. thoughts? Zebec, Facchetti, Henry all down the same flank..

Can't do that. Either you substitute or don't. Can't get voter reactions first.

I got told off for doing the same last draft by crappy

 

[Joga Bonito]

and in the first minute he keeps drifting into the LB spot where Maldini is nowhere to be found.. seems to not want anything to do with him.

That's because Maldini was playing as LWB in a back 5 and Henry mostly played as an inside left of sorts for the opposition in that game...

Don't get me wrong, Henry was on fine form that day and Cannavaro and Nesta seemed to find it hard gain a handle on him. However, the rhetoric that Maldini was shat on by Henry is just not true. In that video you posted, I could only find 2 instances of their encounter. The first which was a weird shot from a bizarre angle by Henry and the next which was a great drag back by Henry to fool Maldini. Other than that there was nothing there, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I know that in USSR in 3-2-2-3, Netto was №6 and Voinov was №5 and they were half-backs, like here.

The correlation between number and actual position/role had started to vary immensely by the time we're talking about here.

What they did in England/Scotland varied from what they did on the continent – which again varied from what they did in various parts of South America.

And this is 1960 we're talking about – the fixed “meaning” of numbers had been dead for decades by then.

 

[coolredwine]

This is a bit much, my friend – surely?

I'll disregard the Henry praise (he was great in that final, but let's not go overboard either), but Durkovic portrayed as a wingback wrongly cast won't do. He was a fullback (back then) who liked to get forward – and who was good at it.

But he was primarily a defender – and a very good one at that. By current standards (for right backs) he was downright excellent. So – yeah: I simply ain't buying that one based on what I know about him (he played much the same role in '62, and he was anything but a shabby defender).

Anything to over hype Henry and the team.

 

[Raees]

Can't do that. Either you substitute or don't. Can't get voter reactions first.

I got told off for doing the same last draft by crappy

such a bitch .. too late haha

 

[antohan]

Spoiler: Alternative formation suggestion

@antohan .. thoughts?

You still have the issue of 4/5 being special as a result of their attacking instincts/transition. You really do need a second proper centreback for me to believe you will get the best out of Facchetti and Beckenbauer.

It does resolve the Euro credentials issue though and I'm sure Rijkaard would happily leave aside his attacking instincts to engage in an almighty battle with Gullit.

But I don't like the midfield. Not sure what Lerby has done to be dropped for Zebec or what Pirlo is contributing there that Beckenbauer won't be offering. You'll get run over. It's almost as if you deliberately choose to sit back and soak and try hit EAP on the break. It's paramount to an admission of inferiority and I think your team as it is is better than that.

Actually, looking at that just made me remember Masopust is on the pitch, he is getting criminally overlooked, not least when you are considering putting Andrea Pirlo on him.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Let's focus on our strengths and weaknesses:

• EAP is playing a narrow 4-3-3 with no proper width. We counter that by cancelling him out through the middle, creating oceans of space down the flanks.
• EAP has a shit hot front three. Just as well we've got an equally impressive defensive set-up - Kohler, Beckenbauer, Zebec - supported by Facchetti and Amoros on the flanks, tucking in when required, and midfield reinforcement for Rijkaard and Lerby. It's just a shame that EAP's main strength is countered by our own.
• The worst player on the park is Durkovic. He was a wing-back operating as a full-back here, desperately trying to come to terms with a Thierry Henry who made a laughing stock out of Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro and Paulo Maldini. And who is overlapping in support - only Giacinto Facchetti, perhaps the greatest wing-back of all time. That screams goals.

- I rate Kohler, but he is against Puskas here. Make it one to one and Puskas will come out on top eventually. Any one-to-one battle favours the striker mostly.
- Kluivert, the Golden Boot winner seems to be conveniently forgotten here. Kaizer will not have the luxury of being a libero full time here. I still rate Kluivert in Euro better than both your strikers.
- Dukrovic was a extremely good full back and cometant. He won the TotT at at time when it had meaning and was given only to 2 defenders in whole tournament. He's a weakness by no stretch.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

such a bitch .. too late haha

Damn

 

[antohan]

Yes. Of course. But it's not as if Campbell is a mug either. He was a pretty good reader of the game himself. Plus, there are Schweinsteiger and Deschamps to help out as well. To avoid getting Durkovic doubled up. Not saying that I disagree with you, but it's too easy to say that Henry-Facchetti would double up and rip apart Durkovic without even giving them a chance.

Your midfielders will help, of course, you need that but you will get beat on occasion. I'm not saying Campbell is a mug, just that he is better suited to be the one minding Ibra, that's where you need a stopper. The pivotal role in that defence, the cool head, the organiser and decision-maker has to be in that right CB role, he just has to, it's a pretty simple concept. You have the best player in the draft for that precise job and choose not to use him as such? Mental.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

• The worst player on the park is Durkovic. He was a wing-back operating as a full-back here, desperately trying to come to terms with a Thierry Henry who made a laughing stock out of Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro and Paulo Maldini.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Here's Durkovic playing the exact equivalent of the role he is being played here.

 

[crappycraperson]

Gio and Raees have gone a bit OTT with their team this time. Very unlike Gio in particular.

 

[Raees]

Gio and Raees have gone a bit OTT with their team this time. Very unlike Gio in particular.

To be fair Crappy, every claim you have made about where we went OTT.. we actually didn't.

You said Henry wasn't all that in that Euros when he clearly was, you're saying our defence isn't as great as we make out when it has Facchetti, Kohler, Beckenbauer... I mean what more can we do to improve it, add Scirea and Baresi too? considering the nationality restraints, you'll find few better.

So please do tell where we have gone OTT and deserve to be criticised. We have been the more measured team in this game and haven't resorted to mud slinging.

 

[antohan]

Gio and Raees have gone a bit OTT with their team this time. Very unlike Gio in particular.

I've proved before the best tactic against Gio is to rattle him and make him abandon his usual, very convincing style.

Make the whole discussion revolve around Nordahl (aka Zebec), that's the only way you can beat this in a first round:

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Spoiler: Alternative formation suggestion

@antohan .. thoughts? Zebec, Facchetti, Henry all down the same flank..

Can't say I would regard that as an improvement at all. Quite to the contrary.

Pirlo and Suarez? That ain't...organic for my money. Don't like it at all. And I don't see the point.

Zebec will be grand no matter where you play him – in theory. But you need to make your mind up. Zebec was a standout player in Yugoslavia's comeback against France in '60. Where did he play? He played in defence. He played his usual game, one might assume – as an intelligent and...blah fecking blah...what he's known for, a pretty complete footballer – as a defender. Not a midfielder – which he would clearly be with this change. If you had someone other than Suarez in that third slot – fine. Bring on Pirlo, let him orchestrate, let Zebec soldier on intelligently as a de-luxe version of Gattuso – excellent.

But you have Suarez on the pitch. Pirlo isn't needed here – and he weakens the overall set-up in my opinion.

Voting for you now – but that is based on you NOT making this substitution.

 

[Raees]

Can't say I would regard as an improvement at all. Quite to the contrary.

Pirlo and Suarez? That ain't...organic for my money. Don't like it at all. And I don't see the point.

Zebec will be grand no matter where you play him – in theory. But you need to make your mind up. Zebec was a standout player in Yugoslavia's comeback against France in '60. Where did he play? He played in defence. He played his usual game, one might assume – as an intelligent and...blah fecking blah...what he's known for, a pretty complete footballer – as a defender. Not a midfielder – which he would clearly be with this change. If you had someone other than Suarez in that third slot – fine. Bring on Pirlo, let him orchestrate, let Zebec soldier on intelligently as a de-luxe version of Gattuso – excellent.

But you have Suarez on the pitch. Pirlo isn't needed here – and he weakens the overall set-up in my opinion.

Voting for you now – but that is based on you NOT making this substitution.

We are not making the substitution, I was just getting EAP all wet with excitement.

 

[antohan]

Zebec was a standout player in Yugoslavia's comeback against France in '60. Where did he play? He played in defence. He played his usual game, one might assume – as an intelligent and...blah fecking blah...what he's known for, a pretty complete footballer – as a defender. Not a midfielder – which he would clearly be with this change.

TBH, we don't know yet whether he was a centreback or centrehalf in that game. Considering they shipped four goals, the defensive side isn't anything to write home about. What I do buy is him being instrumental to the comeback, that's exactly the sort of role I can see him excel in: executing the transition and overloading in attack, a box-to-box midfield role if you will. What I'm pretty clear is that his best (spearheading a comeback) is inconsistent with a Gullit-minding role.

In fact, that's my concern: Facchetti, Beckenbauer, Zebec, Amoros, all players that stood out for their ability to turn defence into attack. It's a great thing to have, but against Gullit-Puskas and Kluivert I would like to see a bit more basic/reliable defending in that mix.

 

[crappycraperson]

To be fair Crappy, every claim you have made about where we went OTT.. we actually didn't.

You said Henry wasn't all that in that Euros when he clearly was, you're saying our defence isn't as great as we make out when it has Facchetti, Kohler, Beckenbauer... I mean what more can we do to improve it, add Scirea and Baresi too? considering the nationality restraints, you'll find few better.

So please do tell where we have gone OTT and deserve to be criticised. We have been the more measured team in this game and haven't resorted to mud slinging.

It is not just me other folks have commented on it as well. Saying someone is superman or best of this/that, does not really add anything.

Henry's performance in that final has been blown out of proportion. For all the clips, he neither created or scored. The goals came from elsewhere.
Question marks about Rijkaard in midfield are valid- after all he did not even make the team of the tournament in 92. His peak Euro performance came in 88 Euros as a center back.
EAP's questions about Zebec are very valid as well.
Your defense is good but off the top of my head, Theon's in WC draft - Scirea, figueroa, Kohler (with Kaiser in MF to boot) was better.

As I said on balance, EAP's defense vs your attack and your defense vs EAP's attack is an even battle with an edge to EAP with Puskas in there as someone most likely to add that edge. So the game may be decided by Midfield after all

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Zebec will be grand no matter where you play him – in theory. But you need to make your mind up. Zebec was a standout player in Yugoslavia's comeback against France in '60. Where did he play? He played in defence. He played his usual game, one might assume – as an intelligent and...blah fecking blah...what he's known for, a pretty complete footballer – as a defender. Not a midfielder – which he would clearly be with this change.

My god, Chester

That Yugoslavia vs France was the only proven match where he played as a DM and not as a CB. Balu posted the lineup link in previous page and it was clear he played in middle of midfield 3 of a 2-3-5 formation, not even in the left. You yourself confirmed that it is better equated to a DM and not a CB role.

So why this vote?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

TBH, we don't know yet whether he was a centreback or centrehalf in that game.

Centrehalf/DM

That Yugoslavia vs France was the only proven match where he played as a DM and not as a CB. Balu posted the lineup link in previous page and it was clear he played in middle of midfield 3 of a 2-3-5 formation, not even in the left. You yourself confirmed that it is better equated to a DM and not a CB role.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Chesterlestreet it was one good game on 1960 a year before his retirement... and they leaked 4 goals. How is that comparable to 'Euro Peak'? And he was known for his part in 'offensive comeback' not for his defensive prowess. Positioned between Beckenbauer as libero and Facchetti as wingback, surely a attacking CB would unbalance the whole defence?