The Double Draft

Pat_Mustard said:
Let the invisible hand of the market and the muppetry of the managers thrash it all out. That's the fun part about auctions. I don't like the idea of fixed tiers anyway, as it pretty much kills any impetus to reassess the relative merits of players.
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Yeah, this is the charm of the auction process.

Some will get 3-4 Goats per round against 1 or 2 for the others.
 
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Well, the top level GOATs are pretty much set in stone, who they are, I mean - I don't see that changing any time soon. And those are the ones you'd want to stop people from picking up for next to nothing. The rest of it can be pure market and mayhem.

I just think that sometimes the actual bidding game becomes (even) less interesting when you have these bargain GOATs in the mix. No risk involved, really, for those who end up getting 'em - which is nice for them but boring for everyone else.
 
I don't understand people bothered about Goats going cheap but don't bid on them?
 
P-Nut0712 said:
I don't understand people bothered about Goats going cheap but don't bid on them?
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You're not going to spend money on players in positions you don't need to fill - or upgrade. If people are bothered by it, they're bothered by the fact that other managers get to upgrade - significantly - very easily. And by the fact that it's often enough completely arbitrary whether you benefit from this - or the opposite.

But bothered...I'm not bothered by it myself. I think it's a flaw of sorts in the system, though - for the reason stated above: It's not very interesting, in short. It doesn't add much spice to the game - in my opinion, that is.
 
Don't see the rationale behind tiered lists, for this particular draft, at this stage - give that it's a crap-shoot from start to finish. If you're gonna give managers randomly assigned players, and ban random assigned players - atleast let them make their own luck in auction - where the playing field is relatively level - as in everyone can bid for player A, B or C at any given time, or block another manager from getting a player he desperately wants.

With tiered auction, the ones with GOATs (3 in particular, even from within that select group - 1 Brazilian and 2 Argies - who are beyond reproach and solid bets for winning the whole thing) just won't lose once they form a decent nucleus (unless their drafting is shambolic - in which case they shouldn't be enabled by straightforward tier picking for the competition where the opponents aren't allowed to catch up to them), since the other managers can't make up for bad luck (like getting lower rung DoF picks - Henry or Lahm, or losing Beckenbauer/Eusébio to Tevezbola) by doing well in auction.

Don't wanna put an X mark upon any specific manager, but eg. Enigma is already looking unbeatable, and runaway favorite - Figueroa, Bergomi, Pelé, Nilton etc etc. and the next couple targets are fairly obvious. If he gets a certain someone in the next round, the draft is essentially dead - no one can do crap against that, especially if there are tiers limiting them to a certain number of GOAT-ish players. But that's ok, since everything is random - and 1/2 big Hargrief blocks can ruin the entire balance of his team.

Wrt. say Cruyff, Skizzo and Pat got Henry is the DoF thing, and Kohler was blocked after R1 - so them getting Cruyff on the cheap isn't that bad - especially since they had to part with 80m for Cabrini, and could've easy gone out in R1 because of a lack of starpower and oomph up front.
 
@Edgar Allan Pillow Scrapping the max nomination limit might speed things up here.

I've got one nomination left - but have absolutely no reason to make it. In fact, common sense says that I obviously will not make said nomination until it's absolutely necessary: If I nominate a player now and some cowboy outbids me, I'm essentially fecked. Or - not fecked - but I end up having to buy a player I probably don't want, and possibly can't even use.

I can see several managers playing that sort of waiting game here. If you let people nominate freely, the obvious targets will be listed right away, the bidding wars done - and we can wrap this up sooner.
 


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Chesterlestreet said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow Scrapping the max nomination limit might speed things up here.

I've got one nomination left - but have absolutely no reason to make it. In fact, common sense says that I obviously will not make said nomination until it's absolutely necessary: If I nominate a player now and some cowboy outbids me, I'm essentially fecked. Or - not fecked - but I end up having to buy a player I probably don't want, and possibly can't even use.

I can see several managers playing that sort of waiting game here. If you let people nominate freely, the obvious targets will be listed right away, the bidding wars done - and we can wrap this up sooner.
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Agreed.. its pissing me off.
 
Invictus said:
Don't see the rationale behind tiered lists, for this particular draft, at this stage - give that it's a crap-shoot from start to finish.
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Yes, I'd agree with that. It's more of a general point with regard to auction drafts (i.e. pure auction drafts).
 
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - Raees - 16:49 - 28m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)

@harms
 
Invictus said:
Don't see the rationale behind tiered lists, for this particular draft, at this stage - give that it's a crap-shoot from start to finish. If you're gonna give managers randomly assigned players, and ban random assigned players - atleast let them make their own luck in auction - where the playing field is relatively level - as in everyone can bid for player A, B or C at any given time, or block another manager from getting a player he desperately wants.

With tiered auction, the ones with GOATs (3 in particular, even from within that select group - 1 Brazilian and 2 Argies - who are beyond reproach and solid bets for winning the whole thing) just won't lose once they form a decent nucleus (unless their drafting is shambolic - in which case they shouldn't be enabled by straightforward tier picking for the competition where the opponents aren't allowed to catch up to them), since the other managers can't make up for bad luck (like getting lower rung DoF picks - Henry or Lahm, or losing Beckenbauer/Eusébio to Tevezbola) by doing well in auction.

Don't wanna put an X mark upon any specific manager, but eg. Enigma is already looking unbeatable, and runaway favorite - Figueroa, Bergomi, Pelé, Nilton etc etc. and the next couple targets are fairly obvious. If he gets a certain someone in the next round, the draft is essentially dead - no one can do crap against that, especially if there are tiers limiting them to a certain number of GOAT-ish players. But that's ok, since everything is random - and 1/2 big Hargrief blocks can ruin the entire balance of his team.

Wrt. say Cruyff, Skizzo and Pat got Henry is the DoF thing, and Kohler was blocked after R1 - so them getting Cruyff on the cheap isn't that bad - especially since they had to part with 80m for Cabrini, and could've easy gone out in R1 because of a lack of starpower and oomph up front.
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Agreed. Given that the draft is essentially based around pot luck, it seems weird that anyone could find this reinforcement round problematic for being kinder to some managers than others.

On a more general note, isn't the luck element true of every draft format anyway? You're always at the mercy of the picking order in a snake draft, or good players in certain positions becoming available for the reinforcements. I don't see the auction format being in any way unique in this regard.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow Scrapping the max nomination limit might speed things up here.

I've got one nomination left - but have absolutely no reason to make it. In fact, common sense says that I obviously will not make said nomination until it's absolutely necessary: If I nominate a player now and some cowboy outbids me, I'm essentially fecked. Or - not fecked - but I end up having to buy a player I probably don't want, and possibly can't even use.

I can see several managers playing that sort of waiting game here. If you let people nominate freely, the obvious targets will be listed right away, the bidding wars done - and we can wrap this up sooner.
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I imagine that Edgar would put a deadline to submit players like in the first auction process which would speed things up.
Invictus said:
Don't wanna put an X mark upon any specific manager, but eg. Enigma is already looking unbeatable, and runaway favorite - Figueroa, Bergomi, Pelé, Nilton etc etc. and the next couple targets are fairly obvious. If he gets a certain someone in the next round, the draft is essentially dead - no one can do crap against that, especially if there are tiers limiting them to a certain number of GOAT-ish players. But that's ok, since everything is random - and 1/2 big Hargrief blocks can ruin the entire balance of his team.

Wrt. say Cruyff, Skizzo and Pat got Henry is the DoF thing, and Kohler was blocked after R1 - so them getting Cruyff on the cheap isn't that bad - especially since they had to part with 80m for Cabrini, and could've easy gone out in R1 because of a lack of starpower and oomph up front.
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Thanks for the kind words mate, but IMO @Downcast has the best team with no weak spot. Most likely he'll field a team with no real weak spot and has the biggest squad. Maradona, Scirea, Puskas and Matthaus to boot. Oh and forgot Romario as well.
 
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Chesterlestreet said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow Scrapping the max nomination limit might speed things up here.

I've got one nomination left - but have absolutely no reason to make it. In fact, common sense says that I obviously will not make said nomination until it's absolutely necessary: If I nominate a player now and some cowboy outbids me, I'm essentially fecked. Or - not fecked - but I end up having to buy a player I probably don't want, and possibly can't even use.

I can see several managers playing that sort of waiting game here. If you let people nominate freely, the obvious targets will be listed right away, the bidding wars done - and we can wrap this up sooner.
Click to expand...

I'm in the exact same position. I don't see much point in maintaining the nomination limit.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
I'm in the exact same position. I don't see much point in maintaining the nomination limit.
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There ain't one. Lest it be to reward people for not making nominations earlier on. Which would be weird.

Playing the waiting game under those restrictions will obviously pay off, sooner or later - at least it's very likely that it will.

But if everyone does it, we get nowhere.
 
Anyway, as I'm off to the airport now I have to play the waiting game whether I want to or not - will be unstable, connection wise, until ten-ish probably.

Till then.
 
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)

@Raees
 
Downcast said:
If you want war, less restrictions, no?
And the process will take more time with restrictions on the # of introduced players.
5 active bids sounds good
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Things turn out as expected.
 
@Enigma_87

Thanks but too early to define the favourites because some managers are still in a position to acquire 4-5-6 new players!
 
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What happens if a manager can't recruit 3 players? @Edgar Allan Pillow I see harms on 60 already with 1 nomination left, would make sense to wait for the very last minute till he makes his.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I don't know about that, to be honest. Sure, you could do it without it looking like a complete clusterfeck, but it's not a well balanced team.

They're all players you ideally want to build the team around, so something has to give. The reason why Pelé + Messi sort of works, is that you can field them both in roles that do not require a pure playmaker - and then have someone like, say, Didi pull the strings from further back. Messi's used to that sort of thing - and Pelé would handle it well too.

For my money something like:

Garrincha - Pelé - Zagallo/Rivelino

Ronaldo
​
would be more functional and likelier to be deadly in an actual match than any combo you can come up with featuring more than one member of the quartet.

Again, you could do it without it looking positively hopeless, but it wouldn't look that good either. It would be an answer to the question "how can we squeeze as many of 'em in as possible?" and not "how can we build the best possible (and more or less realistic) team featuring great S-American players?"
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Well it's true playing two of them tends to a 352 formation but I think you have a couple options.

A 3-2-3-2

---------Pele------------Batistuta
Zagallo---------Maradona-----------Garrincha
----------Falcao----------Cerezo-----------
-------Marzolini--Figueroa---C. Alberto
-----------------Chilavert--------------------

A lopsided 4-3-3

------------------Ronaldo--------
---Orsi----------------------Messi
--------------ADS----Falcao---------
------------------Monti-----------------
Marzolini--Passarella--C.Alberto-Cafu
---------------Chilavert------------

I think these would be very dangerous sides
 
Enigma_87 said:
What happens if a manager can't recruit 3 players? @Edgar Allan Pillow I see harms on 60 already with 1 nomination left, would make sense to wait for the very last minute till he makes his.
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Yeah, if the rules stand as they are I will be truly fecked if someone outbids my last nomination :lol:
 
Personally think we should just remove this bids restriction, it is getting tiresome, is taking up the entire day and I don't really see an end in sight. It will still be super competitive even if this rule is relaxed.
 
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18:00 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Garrincha - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m


Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rumenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m


Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rumenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
D. Santos - P-Nut0712 - 18.42 - 10m
Gento - P-Nut0712 - 18.42 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Ah no worries will reconsider. Or is it a blocked pick. I can't remember what the rules say
 
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rumenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 10:05 - 22m

*Break*

D. Santos - P-Nut0712 - 18.42 - 10m
Gento - P-Nut0712 - 18.42 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rumenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 19:05 - 22m
Sammer - Raees - 19:10 - 10m


*Break*

D. Santos - P-Nut0712 - 18.42 - 10m
Gento - P-Nut0712 - 18.42 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rummenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 19:05 - 22m
Sammer - Raees - 19:10 - 10m
Cannavaro - harms - 19:14 - 10m


Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
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Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rummenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 19:05 - 22m
Sammer - Raees - 19:10 - 10m
Cannavaro - harms - 19:14 - 10m
Xavi - Enigma - 19:50 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rummenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 19:05 - 22m
Sammer - Raees - 19:10 - 10m
Cannavaro - harms - 19:14 - 10m
Xavi - Enigma - 19:50 - 10m
Ferrara - Downcast - 20:15 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rummenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 19:05 - 22m
Sammer - Raees - 19:10 - 10m
Cannavaro - harms - 19:14 - 10m
Xavi - Enigma - 19:50 - 10m
Ferrara - Downcast - 20:15 - 10m
Lahm - P-Nut0712 - 20:40 - 10m
H. Stoichkov - P-Nut0711 - 20:40 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 12.47 - 21m
G. Facchetti - Invictus - 13:47- 24m
N. Santos - Enigma - 14:52 - 22m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 15:15 - 28m
van Basten - harms - 17:09 - 30m
Nedved - Enigma - 18.00 - 10m
Zico - Raees - 18:02 - 10m
Rummenigge - Raees - 18:10 - 10m
Garrincha - Invictus - 19:05 - 22m
Sammer - Raees - 19:10 - 10m
Cannavaro - harms - 19:14 - 10m
Xavi - Enigma - 19:50 - 10m
Ferrara - Downcast - 20:15 - 10m
Lahm - P-Nut0712 - 20:40 - 10m
H. Stoichkov - P-Nut0711 - 20:40 - 10m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m) 3) Hierro (14m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m) 2) Romario (23m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)
Skizzo/Pat: 1) Cruyff (26m)
 
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