The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield

luke511 said:
Bollocks it would, it would’ve been the perfect combination to having a 10 like Bruno in your side. Caicedo is a much more consistent version of Fred, that excels at everything he does and can also play as a 6. He was exactly what our midfield needs.
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Nah.

As I said, it's not a coincidence that both Chelsea and Liverpool were looking for him to be their actual DM, not to play alongside another DM. That's his role in a top side. Similarly, it's also not a coincidence that Casemiro flourished alongside Kroos/Modric profile players, neither of whom are remotely as defensive as Caicedo. You can claim that very conservative Casemiro/Caicedo pairing would have been a great fit all you like, but it's self-evidently true that few top sides are interested in setting up like that, because we can see that they don't.

Caicedo wouldn't even be the most natural pairing for Casemiro among current Chelsea midfielders, Enzo would be the more natural profile fit.
 
Caicedo went for £115 million! so it is pointless even mentioning his name.

As if the Glazers would have sanction that! haha
 
sullydnl said:
Nah.

As I said, it's not a coincidence that both Chelsea and Liverpool were looking for him to be their actual DM, not to play alongside another DM. That's his role in a top side. Similarly, it's also not a coincidence that Casemiro flourished alongside Kroos/Modric profile players, neither of whom are remotely as defensive as Caicedo. You can claim that very conservative Casemiro/Caicedo pairing would have been a great fit all you like, but it's self-evidently true that few top sides are interested in setting up like that, because we can see that they don't.

Caicedo wouldn't even be the most natural pairing for Casemiro among current Chelsea midfielders, Enzo would be the more natural profile fit.
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I have to spell it out to you? Caicedo would’ve been our long term 6, short term 6 cover and Casemiro partner in the away games, you know, the games we had a really hard time with last season. Caicedo and Casemiro would’ve alternated between being the 6 and 8, as they’re both all rounded midfielders. It would’ve been a treat to watch. Caicedo has the passing ability to be the destroyer and passer in midfield, that’s what makes him so valuable.

To add, the top sides you’re thinking of don’t have a volatile player like Bruno as a 10 or forwards Like Rashford that can give away possession a lot, extra protection behind them is needed because of this.
 
RuudTom83 said:
Caicedo went for £115 million! so it is pointless even mentioning his name.

As if the Glazers would have sanction that! haha
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We’ve spent way over that already, and we still desperately need a midfielder. If you factor in the money from sales that should’ve gone through by now, it was definitely possible. The club should’ve put all their energy into signing him after he dominated our midfield game after game.
 
luke511 said:
We’ve spent way over that already, and we still desperately need a midfielder. If you factor in the money from sales that should’ve gone through by now, it was definitely possible. The club should’ve put all their energy into signing him after he dominated our midfield game after game.
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Tell that to the Glazers...sadly it would fall on deaf ears.
 
dinostar77 said:
For me its simple, a midfield trio should be Creator: Bruno, Destroyer: Casemiro and Passer: ?????

Thats where Mount doesnt fit in for me. Hes not a creator, not a destroyer, not a passer. He just runs around alot and presses.

Get the right player, maybe amrabat in, then you have your passer and the midfield trident should work.

Its a shame we dont have a eriksen of 5 years ago. He doesnt have the legs for 90mins.
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my feeling exactly and Amrabat would seem to be an obvious choice given budget and his ability

We probably should have bit the bullet and paid over the odds for Rice

Our squad building is poor. Next Summer we will likely be forking out to replace Casemiro/Ericksen/A CB/CF

that could be a huge outlay
 
RuudTom83 said:
Tell that to the Glazers...sadly it would fall on deaf ears.
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The Glazers have little to do with it really (sadly). It's down to Ten Hag's preferences on what he wanted to spend the budget on, with Murtough nodding along like the brainless yes man he is.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
They are both big. The sad part is we’ve already bought players to address both problems
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Our attack was never gonna get sorted by one signing unless that signing was Kane. Since we decided on a young and inexperienced player we have to get another proven goalscorer if we want to do anything

As for the midfield we probably signed the wrong profile in Mount but don't want to write him off just yet. Mainoo injury didn't help as he looked potentially ready for proper minutes
 
JB08 said:
Didn't take long did it :lol:

At least give them a few games to gel together? fecking hell
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In a few games we could have lost a meaningful number of points. Time is needed for them to gel as with any new midfield, but for it to be this much of a problem is a huge concern.

Not saying it's all down to though, forwards look crap.
 
luke511 said:
The Glazers have little to do with it really (sadly). It's down to Ten Hag's preferences on what he wanted to spend the budget on, with Murtough nodding along like the brainless yes man he is.
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Not sure I can agree that the owner of the club have little to do with it...but we can disagree on that.

But if we look at what has actually been spend this summer...£166.2 million on £55 Mount, £47.2 Onana and £64 Hojlund

Then in an alternate world United instead went for £115 Caicedo, that would leave £51 million for a GK and CF :/

Not sure which scenario would result in a higher league finish at the end of the season myself.
 
dinostar77 said:
For me its simple, a midfield trio should be Creator: Bruno, Destroyer: Casemiro and Passer: ?????

Thats where Mount doesnt fit in for me. Hes not a creator, not a destroyer, not a passer. He just runs around alot and presses.

Get the right player, maybe amrabat in, then you have your passer and the midfield trident should work.

Its a shame we dont have a eriksen of 5 years ago. He doesnt have the legs for 90mins.
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well said. In other words, there should be a #6, #8 and #10. We went all in for a #10 in Mount despite having Bruno. Who is doing the link up to the front? No one. Eriksen did it last year well before he got injured. Mount is not that kind of player. Against Spurs, he pressed a lot in the first half, but almost did nothing going forward. Against Wolves, he drifted a lot to the front (same as Bruno) we were left with lots of space for Casemiro to cover; that’s why we seemed lost in midfield.

whose fault is it? ETH for sure (that’s the first time I feel he screwed up - hope I’m wrong). The signing of Mount doesn’t seem reasonable for me. Would’ve spent this cash on a #8. Currently we are stuck; playing 433 leaves us with uncovered space in midfield while playing 4231 leaves us with playing our 70 million signing out of position.
 
RuudTom83 said:
Not sure I can agree that the owner of the club have little to do with it...but we can disagree on that.

But if we look at what has actually been spend this summer...£166.2 million on £55 Mount, £47.2 Onana and £64 Hojlund

Then in an alternate world United instead went for £115 Caicedo, that would leave £51 million for a GK and CF :/

Not sure which scenario would result in a higher league finish at the end of the season myself.
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If you include the money we should have from McTominay and Maguire, £60 (or £50 million factoring in Maguire's contract) that leaves £100 million for a GK and CF. Sell Henderson at a discounted price to help fund players then even better.

Best case scenerio - Caicedo, Onana, Hojlund = £226 million
Mid case in case certain sales didn't go through - Caicedo, Onana, Orban = £192 million or Caicedo, Verbruggen, Hojlund = £196 million
Worse case - Caicedo, Verbruggen, Orban = £162 million
 
luke511 said:
If you include the money we should have from McTominay and Maguire, £60 (or £50 million factoring in Maguire's contract) that leaves £100 million for a GK and CF. Sell Henderson at a discounted price to help get it to £115 million then we're sorted.

Best case scenerio - Caicedo, Onana, Hojlund = £226 million
Mid case in case certain sales didn't go through - Caicedo, Onana, Orban = £192 million or Caicedo, Verbruggen, Hojlund = £196 million
Worse case - Caicedo, Verbruggen, Orban = £162 million
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Sadly you can't include money for sales that never happen.
 
Clearly not working. Mount is an out and out ETH signing. Wonder what was his thought process when getting him.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Obviously our midfield problem is a big issue but I think our goalscoring is an even bigger one
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Our midfield is the issue. How many balls has Rashford received? How much involvement have our advanced midfielders had?

There is hardly any advancement across the lines. Our attack is through the wingers 1v1 and a cloud of dust, and out of possession is like a hot knife through butter, a 3v1 fast break with Casemiro’s head on a swivel.

Kane would’ve been either sitting high waiting for a pass with no involvement, or coming deeper to join in the lack of build up.

I think it’s time to bring in Amrabat to partner with Casemiro and play Mount on the right wing (Antony offers nothing). Bruno and Rashford need to be used in their former roles, and Martial, Sancho and Hojlund as strikers.
 
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windycityfan said:
Our midfield is the issue. How many balls has Rashford received? How much involvement have our advanced midfielders had?

There is hardly any advancement across the lines. Our attack is through the wingers 1v1 and a cloud of dust, and out of possession is like a hot knife through butter, a 3v1 fast break with Casemiro’s head on a swivel.

Kane would’ve been either sitting high waiting for a pass with no involvement, or coming deeper to join in the lack of build up.
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They're both an issue but our inability to put the ball in the back of the net is the biggest one at this point.

We are third in the league for big chances created, and have the 4th most shots in the league so far.

We've have created enough to score 4 or 5 goals but we just can't finish.

If we had a few players that actually converted our chances then yes Midfield would be a bigger issue.

Either way it's irrelevant as both need to be sorted
 
luke511 said:
And we have Murtough to thank for that, hence why it's a lot more on him than the Glazers.
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We will never know, but you hear stories that every transfer has to be approved by the Glazers...I just cannot imagine them giving the thumbs up to paying Maguire £6-£10 million to leave.

You blame the Arnold/Murtough, I blame the Glazers...we are going round in circles :devil:
 
Again we clearly weren't buying players from the top shelf so I guess that Mount was never the first choice but what we could realistically sign. Cant believe he first pick with no outstanding attributes.
 
That midfield will get ripped by most of them Premier League. Zero ball retention or passing between them. Mount is our CM and only is making only 14 passes. Not a central midfielder. Bruno who is always awful in possession, but is our best outlet for chance creation. Midfield of chaos. People saying it was good in the first half vs Spurs, but I think a team will higher quality finds a way to punish in the first half. the drop off in the second was all too similar to last season, I'm not seeing any evolution in the style of play, passing the moment.

We have no footballers withTechnical ability, good on the ball, comfortable with both feet.

We need to sign Two midfielders. I don't think we are to finish in top 6 with Mount and Bruno, selling Fred and thinking Mount can do his job. Ten Hag signings are getting worse. First Antony now, Mount.
 
Jig1234 said:
That midfield will get ripped by most of them Premier League. Zero ball retention or passing between them. Mount is our CM and only is making only 14 passes. Not a central midfielder. Bruno who is always awful in possession, but is our best outlet for chance creation. Midfield of chaos. People saying it was good in the first half vs Spurs, but I think a team will higher quality finds a way to punish in the first half. the drop off in the second was all too similar to last season, I'm not seeing any evolution in the style of play, passing the moment.

We have no footballers withTechnical ability, good on the ball, comfortable with both feet.

We need to sign Two midfielders. I don't think we are to finish in top 6 with Mount and Bruno, selling Fred and thinking Mount can do his job. Ten Hag signings are getting worse. First Antony now, Mount.
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Agree with this 100%.

To think we could’ve potentially had Amrabat and Pavard by pushing through with West Ham’s combo offer, not only didn’t we add quality where sorely needed, we took away from it as neither McTominay nor Maguire are featured nor offer value of substance. This one will sting for a long while.
 
sullydnl said:
Because he wants to play with two AMs, as that's the current tactical trend in top level football
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Is it though? I'm not convinced. Arsenal started both Partey and Rice against City; City themselves replaced Gundogan, a high volume passer with another one, Kovacic. Bayern don't play with two AMs and neither do Real Madrid.

Of course feel free to stretch the definition of 'AM' but so far only Liverpool seem to play with two AMs who are as "final-third-oriented" as Mount and Bruno, and they do it only because Chelsea keep signing their targets. Even for Arsenal, Odegaard is far more of a passer than Bruno or Mount.
 
Mount has been a passenger so far, dropping him in there has only increased the pressure and workload on Casemiro and Bruno. Bruno made six tackles in the Wolves game, Mount hasn't made a single one in both games.

Watched Mount yesterday and saw a guy trying to look busy but always finding himself away from the action.
 
............................................................Onana..................................................................

AWB.................................Varane.............................Martinez................................Shaw..

..........................................................Casemiro...............................................................
...............................Bruno....................................................Eriksen................................

...........Mount.....................................Højlund..........................................Rashford.......

That is how I would go as soon as Højlund is ready to go.

Casemiro-Bruno-Eriksen is still our best option despite all three having obvious weaknesses.
The midfield cannot compensate for the lack of good runs from the front three, who has been pretty abysmal. We have seemed somewhat more in control, when Eriksen has come in for Mount, who will need time to be comfortable in his new role. I would play him on the wing though. i trust in Mount, Rashy and Højlund to put the pressure on the opponent. Sancho seems to be in good form and Martial wille be needed as well. Garnacho seems off it at the moment.
 
Zico1982 said:
............................................................Onana..................................................................

AWB.................................Varane.............................Martinez................................Shaw..

..........................................................Casemiro...............................................................
...............................Bruno....................................................Eriksen................................

...........Mount.....................................Højlund..........................................Rashford.......

That is how I would go as soon as Højlund is ready to go.

Casemiro-Bruno-Eriksen is still our best option despite all three having obvious weaknesses.
The midfield cannot compensate for the lack of good runs from the front three, who has been pretty abysmal. We have seemed somewhat more in control, when Eriksen has come in for Mount, who will need time to be comfortable in his new role. I would play him on the wing though. i trust in Mount, Rashy and Højlund to put the pressure on the opponent. Sancho seems to be in good form and Martial wille be needed as well. Garnacho seems off it at the moment.
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Mount on the right is the true realization we've just repeated the Mata deal. Hell I would even throw Bruno on the left until Hojlund comes back and play

Casemiro
McTominay Eriksen
Mount Bruno
Rashford
​
Mount and Bruno can play as the wide attacking midfielders or move them in and have the fullbacks overlap more. I would have zero issues seeing Garnacho and Antony used as subs right now.

​
 
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I'd gladly sell Bruno (if anyone actually fancy him), Mount, and just get some midtable midfielder who can pass between them, even if they don't or incapable of pulling extraordinary skills every once in a while.

The percentages of having a functional midfielder trumps having Bruno. Our possession lost is atrociously bad for a supposedly big team

Bruno is a celebrated purple patch player, you really can't build a team on a player who can't keep possession
 
Zico1982 said:
............................................................Onana..................................................................

AWB.................................Varane.............................Martinez................................Shaw..

..........................................................Casemiro...............................................................
...............................Bruno....................................................Eriksen................................

...........Mount.....................................Højlund..........................................Rashford.......

That is how I would go as soon as Højlund is ready to go.

Casemiro-Bruno-Eriksen is still our best option despite all three having obvious weaknesses.
The midfield cannot compensate for the lack of good runs from the front three, who has been pretty abysmal. We have seemed somewhat more in control, when Eriksen has come in for Mount, who will need time to be comfortable in his new role. I would play him on the wing though. i trust in Mount, Rashy and Højlund to put the pressure on the opponent. Sancho seems to be in good form and Martial wille be needed as well. Garnacho seems off it at the moment.
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Fixed. Eriksen needs to play deeper, Bruno higher. And Martial or Sancho in until Hojlund shows he can be the featured striker.

............................................................Onana................................................................…

AWB.................................Varane.............................Martinez................................Shaw

...........................Casemiro....................................................Eriksen...............................

...........Mount.......................................Bruno….........................................Rashford.........

.........…………….......................….............Martial..................…....................…………………........
 
Sky1981 said:
I'd gladly sell Bruno (if anyone actually fancy him), Mount, and just get some midtable midfielder who can pass between them, even if they don't or incapable of pulling extraordinary skills every once in a while.

The percentages of having a functional midfielder trumps having Bruno. Our possession lost is atrociously bad for a supposedly big team

Bruno is a celebrated purple patch player, you really can't build a team on a player who can't keep possession
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Madness. Two wrongs don’t make one right. Bruno’s passing is the key that unlocks our chance creation. He shouldn’t be playing the possession game. He should be feeding our goal threats, including himself. The possession responsibilities should lie behind him.
 
Mount haven't had the impact we hoped for yet. I can see why he can work so I haven't given up yet. I am way more critical of Bruno's and Casemiro's performances so far.
 
We needed two new midfielders this summer.

Backup/understudy to Casemiro(Caicedo, Lavia, Ugarte...) and a progressive, press resistant ball carrier(Kouadio Kone, Khephren Thuram, Ryan Gravenberch, Matheus Nunes...) - Frenkie de Jong archetype. Introduction of seemingly excellent prospect in Kobbie Mainoo would also help. Instead we got the underwhelming Mason Mount.

McTominay, Van de Beek and Fred should've been sold - only Fred was sold. Bruno(and maybe Eriksen as well because of age) should be shifted or benched next summer with replacements found. I'm not a fan of Bruno's wild, erratic, chaotic football with no ball retention abilities.

And, here we are, unfortunately, in this Casemiro-Mount-Bruno Bermuda triangle of a mess. Midfield that cannot progress the ball effectively, has no ball retention and is defensively light/suspect.

Absolutely wonderful...
 
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philippexyz said:
We needed two new midfielders this summer.

Backup/understudy to Casemiro(Caicedo, Lavia, Ugarte...) and a progressive, press resistant ball carrier(Kouadio Kone, Khephren Thuram, Ryan Gravenberch, Matheus Nunes...) - Frenkie de Jong archetype. Introduction of seemingly excellent prospect in Kobbie Mainoo would also help. Instead we got the underwhelming Mason Mount.

McTominay, Van de Beek and Fred should've been sold - only Fred was sold. Bruno(and maybe Eriksen as well because of age) should've been shifted or benched next summer with replacements found. I'm not a fan of Bruno's wild, erratic, chaotic football with no ball retention abilities.

And, here we are, unfortunately, in this Casemiro-Mount-Bruno Bermuda triangle of a mess. Midfield that cannot progress the ball effectively, has no ball retention and is defensively light/suspect.

Absolutely wonderful...
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Frenkie de Jong archetype indeed. That’s who I thought would’ve been ETH’s main priority from the day he was hired. I have no idea why he deviated from that approach. It has been, is and will be the issue until he finds that type of player.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Personally I prefer to give 10/15 games to a new setup that makes sense on paper. The idea of pairing an agening Casemiro with Bruno and Mount does not make much sense. To me it is crazy. But here we are so let us hope and pray that it works. We also have the issues of an unproven no 9 and a poor right hand side. ETH must have some balls.
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100% agree
 
@windycityfan :
Højlund will play as soon as he is fit enough. It is simple. He provides the runs and the pressure that our midfield is so sorely missing. That will make the players on the wings more efficient. Same goes for the midfield. Rashford can run deep on the left and Mount was able to do so at Chelsea as well. Højlund is the missing piece at the moment. No deep forward runs means that the midfielders cannot play the transitions fast enough. We´ve seen the result. Bruno, Mount and Casemiro are losing posession way to often. Thus, we need to play Eriksen. Despite been really lacking defensively, he is still our best transition playmaker. He will thrive with proper targetplayers up front. Jaden Sancho is actually in good form, but he is no forward. Martial is probably a better finisher than Højlund at this point, but he lacks in every other department of our game. I prefer Casemiro at 6 and Bruno/Eriksen as double8. In the ETHs Ajax-system, Lisandro will help Case out in transition while one of the backs will go more central to cover for him. LvG developed those tactics, and ETH used them in Holland.
 
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