The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield

Idxomer said:
Shouldn't have sold Fred.

He is seriously a better midfielder than anyone remaining in the squad bar Casemiro if he gets fit.
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Shouldn't have sold Fred without having a replacement brought in immediately. You can't just ship off players who racked up ~40 appearances per season and give a manager nothing in replacement.
 
groovyalbert said:
Shouldn't have sold Fred without having a replacement brought in immediately. You can't just ship off players who racked up ~40 appearances per season and give a manager nothing in replacement.
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It was 56 appearances last season. Alarm bells were there as soon as we sold him as it meant ETH saw Mount as the replacement
 
Overhaul FC said:
Maybe Mount and Sancho should start the next game instead of Garnacho and Antony on the wings.

They've been poor for two games in a row now. No harm in postponing the Mount in CM experiment for later in the season when things are going better for the team.
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There's also no harm in never trying it again due to it being an awful and suicidal idea.

What exactly is the plan when Casemiro gets injured or suspended?

ETH built up a lot of trust in him last season to the point it shouldn't be possible to tear it down in 2 games, but it's like he's gone completely bonkers. It's like he doesn't understand that opponents having physicality or athleticism, or the ability to occasionally play through a half hearted press, is a possibility.
 
noodlehair said:
There's also no harm in never trying it again due to it being an awful and suicidal idea.

What exactly is the plan when Casemiro gets injured or suspended?

ETH built up a lot of trust in him last season to the point it shouldn't be possible to tear it down in 2 games, but it's like he's gone completely bonkers. It's like he doesn't understand that opponents having physicality or athleticism, or the ability to occasionally play through a half hearted press, is a possibility.
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It's been said many times, McTominay is his sub and if he would have been sold, Amrabat* was first choice to replace him.
 
It's hard to know exactly what the problem is. It could be Casemiro losing a (dozen) step(s), or Bruno struggling to do the basics, or it could be Mount looking like he's dropped off to the same extent as Dele Alli. I think though, that it's a lack of coaching. They don't seem to know what to do, what each other are doing, or what the actual plan is. Scary to say, but the team overall looks terribly coached this season. Like they have become even less of a team and have no idea what they're supposed to be doing so they all just play as individuals hoping to make something happen.
 
I think we need to go to 4-2-3-1. SMT (until we get better...) alongside Casimero. Rashford playing as the left attacking midfielder, alongside Bruno and Mount. Rasmus up front.
 
Selling Fred and replacing him with - so it seems - Mount is a monumental feck up. The guy simply isn't a CM. Fred for all his faults is three times the player in the middle of the park and at least gave us some kind of balance. Now we are all over the place.
 
I'm sure Erik is still expecting us replace Fred, and probably thought it would have been already. Mount has nothing to do with it.
 
Bruno has never been a possession player, we all know how often he gives the ball away. It's what you have to accept in order to get the bits of genius though. Casemiro looks unfit and incapable of being the sole holding MF, and Mount looks pretty lost right now.
 
When you make a mistake as a manager, particularly if it is an expensive one, how long to you persist with that mistake before admitting you got it wrong? I guess we're about to find out.
 
I think it’ll click and work, it looked better yesterday than against wolves (although a pretty low bar). I’m not panicking yet, early days yet

The problem for me is they all go at once and neither sits when we’re attacking. I think Casemiro should sit in as a DM even when we’re attacking, it will help him because he hasn’t got the legs to get back, and if ever he does go, Mount has to sit.

If we’re playing Mount then Casemiro has to sit deeper than he did last season, and not enter the final third. I’ve said it a few times but I can’t understand why he commits so easily, Maddison skinned him yesterday and had so much space to run into because he’d committed, can’t understand why he does jockey him, could be a pace/legs thing.

Erik will sort it.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Really wanna know why ETH chose Mount ahead of the likes of Tonali.
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Because he wants to play with two AMs, as that's the current tactical trend in top level football. Once you accept that, signing a player like Tonali over Mount makes zero sense. It's not a coincidence all these managers have moved in that direction, can hardly blame ETH for being in tune with that.

The problem is what's needed around that midfield set-up to make it work. Comparing us to Arsenal for example, who also moved towards that double AM set up with Havertz/Odegaard, they have:

1) Defenders better suited to inverting into midfield.
2) Thomas Partey still knocking around, able to come into the team for a change of set up in big games (as against City), play as the nominal RB but actually spend most of the game inverted in midfield (as against Forest) or just provide cover to Rice.

Whereas in our case I'm not convinced by our defenders' ability to support Casemiro and we don't have that Partey-style extra CM to cover Casemiro or allow us to divert from Plan A as needed.
 
Works on FIFA, PES, FM and even on paper. In reality it let's any PL midfield have a field day against us. I just can't believe ETH didn't learn from the Wolves game.
 
sullydnl said:
Because he wants to play with two AMs, as that's the current tactical trend in top level football. Once you accept that, signing a player like Tonali over Mount makes zero sense. It's not a coincidence all these managers have moved in that direction, can hardly blame ETH for being in tune with that.
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I dont disagree with this, but if you look at the profile of our midfield, we lack players who can keep possession under pressure, or players who can dribble out of pressure. It shows in imbalance in our profiles, and that's why we look so clueless against a deep defense.

You can compensate for that if you have an amazing DM who is comfortable on the ball and CBs/FBs who are midfielder-esque in possesion. We dont.

Like you said, getting a #6/#8 like Amrabat would help, as would getting a CB/RB like Pavard/Todibo.
 
M Bison said:
I think it’ll click and work, it looked better yesterday than against wolves (although a pretty low bar). I’m not panicking yet, early days yet

The problem for me is they all go at once and neither sits when we’re attacking. I think Casemiro should sit in as a DM even when we’re attacking, it will help him because he hasn’t got the legs to get back, and if ever he does go, Mount has to sit.

If we’re playing Mount then Casemiro has to sit deeper than he did last season, and not enter the final third. I’ve said it a few times but I can’t understand why he commits so easily, Maddison skinned him yesterday and had so much space to run into because he’d committed, can’t understand why he does jockey him, could be a pace/legs thing.

Erik will sort it.
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I thought our pressing was much better in the first half, we created enough chance to take 2-0 lead at half time. And that's not even counting the blatant penalty that's turned down.
The disappointing issue for me was the team absolutely collapsed after conceding and instead of keep trying the good things that enable them to create chances in the first half, they panicked and try to launched the ball forward at the slightest opportunity. Also, Martinez was poor last night, no authority whatsoever, looks very different to the way he played in the first season.
 
Overhaul FC said:
Maybe Mount and Sancho should start the next game instead of Garnacho and Antony on the wings.

They've been poor for two games in a row now. No harm in postponing the Mount in CM experiment for later in the season when things are going better for the team.
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I think mount out wide couple work. He will have far more responsibility to get forward and cutting inside is not going to be a concern. Think he has the touch and composure to be make a good partnership with shaw.
 
reelworld said:
I thought our pressing was much better in the first half, we created enough chance to take 2-0 lead at half time. And that's not even counting the blatant penalty that's turned down.
The disappointing issue for me was the team absolutely collapsed after conceding and instead of keep trying the good things that enable them to create chances in the first half, they panicked and try to launched the ball forward at the slightest opportunity. Also, Martinez was poor last night, no authority whatsoever, looks very different to the way he played in the first season.
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Agree.

People are focusing on the midfield/Mount again, but in the first half it functioned okay and Mount was okay too, even if I have reservations about how it will work for us over the season with the current personnel.

The bigger problem yesterday was something we've seen in any set-up we've tried in recent times, which is a tendency for our players to seemingly lose their heads once things go wrong. And in a lot of ways that's more worrying.
 
sullydnl said:
Because he wants to play with two AMs, as that's the current tactical trend in top level football. Once you accept that, signing a player like Tonali over Mount makes zero sense. It's not a coincidence all these managers have moved in that direction, can hardly blame ETH for being in tune with that.

The problem is what's needed around that midfield set-up to make it work. Comparing us to Arsenal for example, who also moved towards that double AM set up with Havertz/Odegaard, they have:

1) Defenders better suited to inverting into midfield.
2) Thomas Partey still knocking around, able to come into the team for a change of set up in big games (as against City), play as the nominal RB but actually spend most of the game inverted in midfield (as against Forest) or just provide cover to Rice.

Whereas in our case I'm not convinced by our defenders' ability to support Casemiro and we don't have that Partey-style extra CM to cover Casemiro or allow us to divert from Plan A as needed.
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Its not like everyone is playing two attacking midfielders though. City used that system at times last year but they pften had stones in cm, and sometimes gundogan pr de bruyne playing as more traditional central midfielders. Arsenal are trying to move to that system this year but who knows if it will work out. Newcastle and Brighton tended to use double pivots.

Even if that was the case it doesn't take much more than surface level analysis ro tell Bruno and casemiro might not be suited to it given Bruno gives away the ball so regularly and cssemiro is lacking mobility. And our full backs don't look particularly suited to inverting and coming into midfield. It's not too much to expect eth to come up with a plan that vaguely suits the players
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Seems like one of either Mount or Bruno need taken out and put in McT to at least get someone in there to help Cas. or take a winger out, go 2 up top and get Eriksen in to at least try and get some sort of control in midfield.

Because right now it just isn’t working. Just doesn’t have any balance to it.



Generally this is the crux of the situation we find ourselves in. Mount is not a better footballer than Eriksen but what he is, is a more athletic player.
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How much more athletic is he than Eriksen? He has more energy, certainly, but he seems just as weak as Eriksen is, without being as technically proficient. Is more energy really that useful if you're too weak to do anything useful with it?
 
sullydnl said:
Agree.

People are focusing on the midfield/Mount again, but in the first half it functioned okay and Mount was okay too, even if I have reservations about how it will work for us over the season with the current personnel.

The bigger problem yesterday was something we've seen in any set-up we've tried in recent times, which is a tendency for our players to seemingly lose their heads once things go wrong. And in a lot of ways that's more worrying.
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Yep, tbh I don't know how we would fix that. I thought having Case and Varane would help in that regard, but apparently not.
Ironically, conceding first and played much better afterwards was a staple of Ole early teams.

edit:
For what it's worth, I think the system Ten Hag want to implement requires a center forward who can be the focal point of attack and hold the ball up. It Ten Hag wants to keep playing Rashford as a striker, then, it would be better to switch back to double pivot and partner Case with someone else other than Mount to gain better control of the game
 
Bruno isn't going to change the way he plays, and Casemiro is in his 30's so not much he can do differently either.

Which puts the emphasis on Mount. But so far he doesn't seem to thrive in the centre of the pitch...he looks like he needs the extra time on the ball that playing wider gives you.

I hate saying it but the team needs a CF to be a focal point...but United's CF is a 2O year old kid. Aye aye aye :/
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Midfield gets torn apart by any ball carrying midfielder
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This. Nunes and Cunha from Wolves and Bissouma and Maddison from Tottenham carried the ball through our midfield so ridiculously easily.

I think Frenkie de Jong(or prime Modric, for example) could slalom like a skier from Barca's goal all the way through our goal the way how easy we are to cut and carry through midfield/center of the pitch.
 
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sullydnl said:
Agree.

People are focusing on the midfield/Mount again, but in the first half it functioned okay and Mount was okay too, even if I have reservations about how it will work for us over the season with the current personnel.

The bigger problem yesterday was something we've seen in any set-up we've tried in recent times, which is a tendency for our players to seemingly lose their heads once things go wrong. And in a lot of ways that's more worrying.
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Utd lose their heads when weaknesses are exploited, that’s been the case for god knows how long. Mount and Bruno in midfield combined with the lack of technical consistency throughout the side is a car crash of an idea and was painfully obvious. This is why almost everyone wanted a player like Caicedo instead, a very consistent player and a beast defensively, to help Casemiro clean up when things get tough.
 
I can't get my head around why Ten Hag had Mount, who I think is a decent player btw, over a holding midfielder.
He was desperate for De Jong last summer but why didnt he go for a similar player this year.

Most fans knew Casemiro needed some help in midfield alongside him.
 
luke511 said:
Utd lose their heads when weaknesses are exploited, that’s been the case for god knows how long. Mount and Bruno in midfield combined with the lack of technical consistency throughout the side is a car crash of an idea and was painfully obvious. This is why almost everyone wanted a player like Caicedo instead, a very consistent player and a beast defensively, to help Casemiro clean up when things get tough.
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There's also a reason the two teams who actually tried to sign Caicedo intended to use him as their most defensive midfielder, not alongside another nominal defensive behemoth like Casemiro.

A Casemiro/Caicedo midfield would have been overly defensive and unbalanced. If that's the set-up your team needs then there's either something fundamentally wrong with your team's set-up or your other DM isn't up to the job. Whether Mount was the right choice or not, pairing Caicedo with Casemiro would have been far from ideal, even if I liked the player indivually enough to compromise on it.
 
Who was that midfielder we were constantly linked with throughout Rangnik's period at the club ?
 
sullydnl said:
There's also a reason the two teams who actually tried to sign Caicedo intended to use him as their most defensive midfielder, not alongside another nominal defensive behemoth like Casemiro.

A Casemiro/Caicedo midfield would have been overly defensive and unbalanced. If that's the set-up your team needs then there's either something fundamentally wrong with your team's set-up or your other DM isn't up to the job. Whether Mount was the right choice or not, pairing Caicedo with Casemiro would have been far from ideal, even if I liked the player indivually enough to compromise on it.
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Bollocks it would, it would’ve been the perfect combination to having a 10 like Bruno in your side. Caicedo is a much more consistent version of Fred, that excels at everything he does and can also play as a 6. He was exactly what our midfield needs.
 
For all of his supposed flaws regarding stamina and defensive abilities I'd be starting Eriksen in the next game over either Mount or Fernandes
 
sullydnl said:
There's also a reason the two teams who actually tried to sign Caicedo intended to use him as their most defensive midfielder, not alongside another nominal defensive behemoth like Casemiro.

A Casemiro/Caicedo midfield would have been overly defensive and unbalanced. If that's the set-up your team needs then there's either something fundamentally wrong with your team's set-up or your other DM isn't up to the job. Whether Mount was the right choice or not, pairing Caicedo with Casemiro would have been far from ideal, even if I liked the player indivually enough to compromise on it.
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I'm not sure. Caicedo's energy and aggression is everything we always seem to lack. I don't think it would have made us too defensive.
 
For me its simple, a midfield trio should be Creator: Bruno, Destroyer: Casemiro and Passer: ?????

Thats where Mount doesnt fit in for me. Hes not a creator, not a destroyer, not a passer. He just runs around alot and presses.

Get the right player, maybe amrabat in, then you have your passer and the midfield trident should work.

Its a shame we dont have a eriksen of 5 years ago. He doesnt have the legs for 90mins.
 
Plus, last season we saw how effective Casemiro can actually be when he's given the license to be alittle more adventurous.
 
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