The Biden Presidency

Brwned said:
Why do you choose to be condescending on this issue when you know the legitimate grievances they have and can clearly acknowledge that your preference for moderation and belief in incremental progress is hardly the only legitimate position to take on these issues?
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It was nothing to do with progressive vs moderate. It was a response to Pogue's point about some (thankfully not many) people on the left not allowing themselves to experience joy at the defeat of an actual fascist American president.

Pogue's questions was: "I don’t know why even the most ardent Bernie bro couldn’t allow themselves any satisfaction at Trump’s demise."

It's like winning the league but refusing to celebrate because we didn't win the treble. Ok.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It was nothing to do with progressive vs moderate. It was a response to Pogue's point about some (thankfully not many) people on the left not allowing themselves to experience joy at the defeat of an actual fascist American president.

Pogue's questions was: "I don’t know why even the most ardent Bernie bro couldn’t allow themselves any satisfaction at Trump’s demise."

It's like winning the league but refusing to celebrate because we didn't win the treble. Ok.
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But you know this doesn't feel like winning the league to many Bernie Sanders supporters. That's just you projecting that opinion onto them, even after they have repeatedly said that isn't an accurate depiction of their views. It applies to some, and you apply it to all, or take no notice of the ones it doesn't.

It's more like not getting relegated than winning the league, for some. And getting relegated might well have brought in a change of ownership and set the ship on the right course, rather than on a course to continue the relegation fight for years to come. It's not unreasonable to believe in that scenario you will eventually end up relegated, just a few years down the line, in an even worse position for recovery.

The difference here is it is neither winning the league nor avoiding relegation, it's not an objective fact we can all agree on. Some people that think we won the league right now might assess the achievement differently 4 years later, as it's just an assumption about what comes next, and what the alternative would have been. People get both wrong all the time.
 
Brwned said:
But you know this doesn't feel like winning the league to many Bernie Sanders supporters. That's just you projecting that opinion onto them, even after they have repeatedly said that isn't an accurate depiction of their views. It applies to some, and you apply it to all, or take no notice of the ones it doesn't.

It's more like not getting relegated than winning the league, for some. And getting relegated might well have brought in a change of ownership and set the ship on the right course, rather than on a course to continue the relegation fight for years to come. It's not unreasonable to believe in that scenario you will eventually end up relegated, just a few years down the line, in an even worse position for recovery.

The difference here is it is neither winning the league nor avoiding relegation, it's not an objective fact we can all agree on. Some people that think we won the league right now might assess the achievement differently 4 years later, as it's just an assumption about what comes next, and what the alternative would have been. People get both wrong all the time.
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Can a loss be a win?

(By the way, I think your analogy is actually decent.)
 
It's fairly clear the next divide will actually be within the Democratic base. Suddenly the left will have served their purpose and will no longer be allies but the opposition. It's already quite evident.

I struggle to believe that people don't understand why the lefts celebrations might not be as strong. They'll celebrate real change not a move back to status quo neoliberalism.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Can a loss be a win?

(By the way, I think your analogy is actually decent.)
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That's the one!

Now history hasn't treated that particular question on this forum very kindly, but there are moments in political history that do tell us it's not a no brainer. I would imagine most Bernie Sanders voters are happy with this result, albeit tinged with obvious disappointment. Plenty will think of it like winning the league too, because Trump just was that bad. But that certainly isn't the only way to frame it.

If you do frame it as avoiding relegation then yeah, most people would still take avoiding relegation. But it's not a no brainer like celebrating winning the league, and it does depend on some assumptions about what comes next. There are clubs who have avoided relegation, stacked on debt, chipped away at the fundamentals that had kept that club steady and in the end, driven themselves into oblivion. Most people didn't predict that because it's a very bleak analysis based on a lot of unknowns, but it was a legitimate possibility in the end, and the consequences were so severe that celebrating that one year of survival probably papered over the cracks.

Some people celebrated Aurelian reuniting the Roman empire, some saw it as too little, too late, the empire was crumbling and going back to the old ways was not going to fix that. It was crumbling because the people couldn't go on living that way. Whether that was the right view to take depends on your historical perspective, it's not self-explanatory.
 
Smores said:
It's fairly clear the next divide will actually be within the Democratic base. Suddenly the left will have served their purpose and will no longer be allies but the opposition. It's already quite evident.
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If the Democrats don't flip the senate by winning the run-offs in Georgia, then it becomes irrelevant. The only way to pass legislation will be through compromise with the GOP and by definition some kind of bipartisan centrism.

If the Dems do flip the senate, then yeah, it'll be a real fight over how to change America. And that will be a good thing!
 
Smores said:
It's fairly clear the next divide will actually be within the Democratic base. Suddenly the left will have served their purpose and will no longer be allies but the opposition. It's already quite evident.
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This will only be mended by the old guard retiring imo. And this probably means as soon as they're dead. Corrupt, I'm sorry, Corporate artifacts like Feinstein and Pelosi will seemingly never leave until they've carked it.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
The only way to pass legislation will be through compromise with the GOP and by definition some kind of bipartisan centrism.
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MikeUpNorth said:
actual fascist American president.
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sullydnl said:


Was a good little speech tbf.
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Is this before or after he put his fingers in his campaign workers vagina without her permission. It is difficult to find anyone to admire in politics but US politics really takes the biscuit. That he is the best between him and Trump I would not argue with and life is about enjoying the little victories. Calibrating your moral compass on Joe Biden's is a terrible idea though.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Can a loss be a win?

(By the way, I think your analogy is actually decent.)
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I think the relegation analogy is pretty crap actually. From a fan’s perspective there are loads of obvious upsides to your team going down. Cheaper ticket prices, the chance to actually watch your team win a few games etc etc There’s not a single upside to leaving the orange tyrant in power for another four years. And wilfully ignoring the really fecking obvious upsides to Biden (on hugely important stuff like climate change and covid) takes a peculiar kind of bloody-mindedness which does indeed come close to the wallowing in misery you’re accusing them of.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
If the Democrats don't flip the senate by winning the run-offs in Georgia, then it becomes irrelevant. The only way to pass legislation will be through compromise with the GOP and by definition some kind of bipartisan centrism.

If the Dems do flip the senate, then yeah, it'll be a real fight over how to change America. And that will be a good thing!
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I agree mostly but it won't be an irrelevance to those who actually need real action. Let's not forgot behind the policy divides are real people.

If Biden can't get changes through his tone will matter. I think he's on the right side of Covid and that will dominate for some time anyway.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Is this before or after he put his fingers in his campaign workers vagina without her permission. It is difficult to find anyone to admire in politics but US politics really takes the biscuit. That he is the best between him and Trump I would not argue with and life is about enjoying the little victories. Calibrating your moral compass on Joe Biden's is a terrible idea though.
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Just so we're clear that's an allegation which has been argued to death and by and large dismissed by an accuser with a recent history of actual criminal fraud. Throw the crime bill at him, throw Thomas hearings at him but imo don't throw that BS single accuser and state it as fact .
 
Hmm, given that Biden`s record is pretty average to bad from a progressive (European) POV I don`t expect much.

Potentially positive:
- Given that the desire to be the antithesis to Trump is high right now, there finally could be some movement on issues where the Dems were shocking before 2016 and where Trump just exposed terrible standards by endorsing them. ICE for example comes to mind.
- Potential for more green policies is there, again given that Trump proudly presented himself as the opposite. Although rejoining the Paris Agreement means shit, the hope is that Biden wants to align the US more to European states who have consideratly moved on since 2016 (gotta say, very wishful thinking).
- With Stacey Abrams and Georgia, the Dems might finally have woken up to tackle the issues of voter surpression and disenfranchisement and start installing some infrastructure.
- He might be a useful figure with whom a potential restructuring of the police begins given that the topic is hot right now. Not because he believs in it (far from it) but because the "Defund the police" hook from Republicans won`t hit him.

Potentially negative:
- All the above don`t take place because under the framing of "Finally all is back to normal" nothing is done.
- Given that he is neoliberal through and through progressive taxing and social reforms won`t take place. Combined with the Economic hit from Covid and Trumps trade wars poverty will rise and we might see a huge red nationalistic backlash worse than Trump in 2024/28.
- Dems will lose the narrative control on healthcare given that Biden does not support universal healthcare. Opportunity lost as the demand for medicare for all was popular even in heavy Republican regions.
- With the current Congress situation, Dems won`t get shit done and look more likely to start some proper infighting that has already begun with the targeting of progressive politicians.

Probably no change:
- Foreign policy. Public communication will obviously change with more words against Russia but despite Trump cozying up to Putin he never deviated much from Obamas line.
- With regard to the Middle East, Trump was obviously trash but apart from Iran relations I don`t see much change. Western countries topple over their feet when it comes to betraying the Kurds so another president wouldn`t have made much difference and no one gives a shit about e.g. Yemen either way.
 
Beachryan said:
Just so we're clear that's an allegation which has been argued to death and by and large dismissed by an accuser with a recent history of actual criminal fraud. Throw the crime bill at him, throw Thomas hearings at him but imo don't throw that BS single accuser and state it as fact .
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Fair enough, he is still a plagiarist and handsy personal space invading creepy old man I wouldn't leave in a room with any of my nieces.
 
As frustrating as it is, and it's f*cking infuriating, you can't ignore that the US is this divided. And Biden certainly can't. I totally empathise with those wishing he'd just come in and executive order his way to liberal nirvana, but the reality is that almost half of those he's been elected to govern don't want that.

Further, the fact the dems couldn't even take the Senate means he has to be bipartisan. There is no other route to meaningful legislation. And you know what? Before the GOP nihilists came to power that would have been a good thing. A diverse set of lawmakers representing diverse voters using negotiation and compromise to fashion something suitable. But Mitch f*cking McConnell (and Newt, to be fair) realised the easiest way to get his way is to do no governing, and then point how bad DC is at governing. That is the problem that needs surmounting. Not Biden's leftwing credentials.

The only other way of viewing this is that you know better than half the electorate, and they should should just be appreciative that you are pushing through laws because one day it will benefit them too, whether they realise it or not. That's a pretty gnarly road to go down, and if you need reminding it's precisely the road Trump took us on.

A better world would undoubtedly be a US that supports the majority of AOC/Bernie policies because it appears they're the best for the future. But that's not what we have, and it's therefore hard to govern that way. Wishing it were otherwise is just going to get you pissed off.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the relegation analogy is pretty crap actually. From a fan’s perspective there are loads of obvious upsides to your team going down. Cheaper ticket prices, the chance to actually watch your team win a few games etc etc There’s not a single upside to leaving the orange tyrant in power for another four years. And wilfully ignoring the really fecking obvious upsides to Biden (on hugely important stuff like climate change and covid) takes a peculiar kind of bloody-mindedness which does indeed come close to the wallowing in misery you’re accusing them of.
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There is at least one obvious potential upside. Hilary liked a bit of war and many people speculated at the time that Trump's isolationist position to foreign policy and his stated desire to reduce that aspect of the military footprint would lead to him being a much smaller risk of starting or intensifying another war. That view is strengthened now, after 4 years.

Biden on the other hand played a significant role in Iraq, and that was a direct consequence of him striving for national unity, trying to reach across the aisle, and believing in Republican fairytales. Which is still something he embodies. So it's not at all unreasonable to suggest he is a bigger risk on that front. And there's good reason to think that matters a lot.

This is constantly overlooked by the people who go with the historical viewpoint that Iraq was just mishandled and a forgivable mistake, and so Biden's role in it should not be held too strongly against him. That tends to be suggested by people on the left who supported the idea at the time. That is obviously not the only historical viewpoint you could take. And Sanders embodies the opposite viewpoint.

You insisting there is only way to think about these things does not make it so. There are things that are worse about Biden than Trump. And different people value those things differently.

You also misinterpreted the relegation analogy. Presumably to make a point. It wasn't about how people would personally benefit, it was about how the club would manage. The people on the left who worry about Biden mostly do not do so because they think it won't benefit them personally.
 
sullydnl said:


Was a good little speech tbf.
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That was actually quite an inspiring speech. I really hope he's a good president, could do with some sanity.

Seems to be fairly pro drugs as well, wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of recreational drugs decriminalized under him.
 
The modern day Republican party has no interest in being bipartisan. They're never worried about upsetting liberals infact they spend most of their time purposefully upsetting liberals.
Universal healthcare, free public education, a living wage, decisive action on climate change, dismantling the military industrial complex are not some pie in the sky far fetched left looney ideas, they are ideas supported by a majority of Americans according to all the polls even the FOX News polls.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Is this before or after he put his fingers in his campaign workers vagina without her permission. It is difficult to find anyone to admire in politics but US politics really takes the biscuit. That he is the best between him and Trump I would not argue with and life is about enjoying the little victories. Calibrating your moral compass on Joe Biden's is a terrible idea though.
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Quit slandering people like a moron.

Biden in a 3 year sample of his political career has probably done more good than someone like you ever will your entire life.
 
Sweet Square said:
yassssss queen!


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Yeah she's a real piece of work.

I think once the jubilation of the giant wotsit leaving the WH dies down, we'll all come crashing down to reality once we realise that Biden and KH aren't the progressive bastions we'd hope they be. It's still progress in the short term, but we're essentially back at step one. Obama will have proven to be the most progressive President in most of our lifetimes, and even he's had his demons.
 
Smores said:
It's fairly clear the next divide will actually be within the Democratic base. Suddenly the left will have served their purpose and will no longer be allies but the opposition. It's already quite evident.

I struggle to believe that people don't understand why the lefts celebrations might not be as strong. They'll celebrate real change not a move back to status quo neoliberalism.
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It does appear that way, they just need to take things slow, it won't happen overnight, maybe not in the next decade. The progressives are making gains, they just need to keep doing what they are doing and more of the established dems will see which way the wind is blowing. They have the younger generations on their side.
 
shamans said:
Quit slandering people like a moron.

Biden in a 3 year sample of his political career has probably done more good than someone like you ever will your entire life.
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I have never raised the money to build a hospital to treat spinal injury either it doesn't mean Jimmy Savile had a better moral compass than me or you does it?

I just object to the don't question his morals or look how righteous he is bullshit because he isn't DJT, it doesn't mean he isn't guilty of nepotism, cronyism and lets not forget he says he isn't even going to try to get every US citizen free at the point of need health care.

Enjoy his election over the alternative but the mans a cnut, with a long and fully documented career of being a cnut.
 
shamans said:
Quit slandering people like a moron.

Biden in a 3 year sample of his political career has probably done more good than someone like you ever will your entire life.
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That’s an utterly ridiculous argument.
 
Is it possible to attain the office of the presidency without being a cnut? Genuine question.
 
Sweet Square said:
yassssss queen!


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Said it a million times, She’s a fcuking ghoul.

Trump would have done better to highlight the fact she’s as right wing as the Republicans on many policies.

That would have been closer to the truth than pretending she’s a communist / socialist / further left than Bernie.
 
I don't know enough about Carter's rise to the presidency (it was probably cutnish), but I think we can classify his post presidency as the most non-cutnish one in quite a while.
 
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