The beginning of the end... (the original board vetoed Mourinho's transfer wish list thread)

[12OunceEpilogue]

Maybe they spent £35m on a center back last season that hasn't looked anywhere near good enough and resent buying another one based on Mourinho's previous decisions. Thankfully, even Woodward isn't stupid enough to waste £70m on Willian.

You're like Mourinho, it's always easy to spend somebody else's money.

I have sympathy with this fundamental argument, but that sympathy can't extend to a board who gave the bloke a new contract eight months ago. At that point if you have reservations about Jose's transfer ideas wouldn't you bring it up before a pen were put to paper? Why wasn't there discussion, proper discussion, about the future transfer policy so that we could avoid the situation where the board 'vetoing' the manager's shortlist is the talk of the town?

It could be such a discussion did take place, Jose agreed to relinquish all input into our transfer business and his moaning, his shortlist and these stories are a complete load of bollocks propagated by Jose. I choose not to believe this, because I imagine Jose would have sought assurances as to the future direction of the recruitment policy and would not have signed up to such an arrangement. Whichever way you look at it the board have mismanaged this; if you don't like his recruitment ideas after Lindelof you propose a deal where he's out of that particular loop or you part company, if you are happy for him to have input on recruitment you discuss his ideas in detail to check they chime with your preferred direction before you offer him a new contract and you back him in the next transfer window. In the space of eight months our board have given Jose a new contract then reportedly refused to pursue his preferred signing, which can't be right regardless of where you stand on recruitment policy.

 

[Patrick08]

Pep doesn't work in the same type of framework which was my point. He is an head coach, he has a DOF and a CEO that knows him and do the job that we(United) expect from the manager. It's a different world.

That's my point as well. Woodward and the glazers have hijacked the power corridors at Man utd post Fergie and gill. They dint have the audacity to overpower Sir Alex's judgements.

Typical case of mismanagement in an super successful organization after a super successful powerful figure steps down and hungry for power people wanting to have a say in working matters of the organization takes control.

And Woodward is not a footballing person and neither the character to understand the dynamics of footballing world.

 

[AndyJ1985]

Absolutely no need to respond to them immediately. If Woodward felt an absolutely burning desire to cover his arse (and I don't see why he couldn't take the moral high-ground and keep his trap shut, for the good of the club) then he could have waited until after our season opener or, ideally, the international break. Throwing the manager under the bus the evening before our season opener - with a badly under-cooked squad - is tantamount to sabotage. An unforgivable decision.

It's no worse than the things Jose says about the players. He's happy to throw them under the bus, so feck him

 

[Ban]

Club is a hostage of a feud between Jose and Ed right now. Not to mention having Ed deciding on football matters is a disaster in the long run.

 

[mancan92]

Yes but again, if this was the case, it would have been discussed with Mourinho, and different targets would have been identified. And that would have happened fairly early on in proceedings...and Jose wouldn't have been banging on about some list of names he handed over back at the end of May. So if you believe all this you are forced to believe that no one bothered to tell Mourinho at any point...the manager of the team, which simply isn't going to be the case because the mere idea of it is so fecking stupid.

We also have no evidence that Alderweireld would have been £65m as apparently, if you believe what's come out, we never made a bid, or even had a discussion with Tottenham about it. Yet somehow concluded he was too expensive.

Or you believe mourinho is a stubborn man who spent the summer complaining the moment the club voetoed his list. I can easily believe this.

 

[Adisa]

There's an upside for the martial clan though.

If Woodward is vetoing deals like this he is probably also vetoing Mourinho’s efforts to replace martial with Perisic. Looking out for the future manager.

The report clearly states this is the case.

 

[Mainoldo]

I mean...if he doesn't trust Mourinho's vision for the club, then giving him a contract extension quite clearly isn't a good idea? I get that the board are going to want to critique a manager and won't have absolute blind faith in him, but if they genuinely don't trust him to make signings then I'm baffled as to why he's still here.

Did you ignore my point of a pay rise? He was doing a good job, we didn’t end the season how we started off did we. If we didn’t give him and extension and he fizzled off the PSG after getting us a league title can you imagine the reverse histeria on the CAF. Woody would have been hung again for not giving ‘the best manager on the planet’ a new contract and leaving it too late. He was very risk adverse in doing what he did and it’s showing it’s fruition right now. If Mourinho fails we pay him off for a year. If he succeeds win win.

 

[VanGaalyTime]

Maybe they spent £35m on a center back last season that hasn't looked anywhere near good enough and resent buying another one based on Mourinho's previous decisions. Thankfully, even Woodward isn't stupid enough to waste £70m on Willian.

You're like Mourinho, it's always easy to spend somebody else's money.

Speaking of spending someone else's money: Maybe the fans resent the owners having taken nearly a billion pounds out of the club and saying 3 percent of that is too much money.

 

[Cheesy]

Did you ignore my point of a pay rise? He was doing a good job, we didn’t end the season how we started off did we. If we didn’t give him and extension and he fizzled off the PSG after getting us a league title can you imagine the reverse histeria on the CAF. Woody would have been hung again for not giving ‘the best manager on the planet’ a new contract and leaving it too late. He was very risk adverse in doing what he did and it’s showing it’s fruition right now. If Mourinho fails we pay him off for a year. If he succeeds win win.

We spent most of the season comfortably behind City in 2nd. Due to how dominant they were the title was effectively gone early on.

I maintain my point - if he genuinely doesn't trust Mourinho's transfers then Mourinho shouldn't be here, and keeping him on for another season thus becomes a poor decision.

 

[cyberman]

Neither Bailly nor Lindelof were first choice last season, behind Jones. Thats who Mourinho turned to in the push for 2nd place.

Alarm bells have to be ringing when you spent large amounts on CBs and none of them are currently first choice, but now you have to pay £70 million for a 3rd try that may fail. And with Toby if he came in and failed we'd get nothing for him due to his age after just 1 season

Lindelof was eased in and played better as the season went on while Bailly was simply injured for large periods.
Just sell Jones and Rojo to give Jose what he wants, why are they so untouchable?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's no worse than the things Jose says about the players. He's happy to throw them under the bus, so feck him

Brilliant. The manager they hired behaves like a prick so the board should do the same. Hell of a way to run a football club. Makes me proud to be a Manchester United fan.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yet they were apparently fine with signing 32 year old Diego Godin. Go figure.

If that’s the case what is your problem? We would have gave the manager what he wanted, not for the first time either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We spent most of the season comfortably behind City in 2nd. Due to how dominant they were the title was effectively gone early on.

I maintain my point - if he genuinely doesn't trust Mourinho's transfers then Mourinho shouldn't be here, and keeping him on for another season thus becomes a poor decision.

Precisely.

 

[villain]

We couldn't get 25m for him now.

So we probably won't get that much for him next year. Particularly given he be on lower wages if he moves which he will be reluctant to do. No club will pay a full fee and high wages for him to match what he's on.

There's no way you can say that as if it's fact.
We sold Blind for Just shy of £20m and his contract was winding down, why would we not be able to sell Rojo for £25m?

Yes but again, if this was the case, it would have been discussed with Mourinho, and different targets would have been identified. And that would have happened fairly early on in proceedings...and Jose wouldn't have been banging on about some list of names he handed over back at the end of May. So if you believe all this you are forced to believe that no one bothered to tell Mourinho at any point...the manager of the team, which simply isn't going to be the case because the mere idea of it is so fecking stupid.

We also have no evidence that Alderweireld would have been £65m as apparently, if you believe what's come out, we never made a bid, or even had a discussion with Tottenham about it. Yet somehow concluded he was too expensive.

Just because it may have been discussed with Mourinho doesn't mean that he would've changed his targets though. It's just as likely that Mourinho was set on one of the players on his list, and the club tried to negotiate a reasonable fee for those players. Once it was clear that either party weren't going to shift then Mourinho's annoyance grew.

Surely depends on the return you get from them? I'd argue we'd have been paying over the odds for both, but if either really made the difference throughout the season and won us the league you could argue going slightly over what was needed would then be justified.

It absolutely does, I said on the other page that someone like RVP who helped us win the league is absolutely the standard we should be looking at if we're going to buy older players.
Toby wouldn't have won us the league, we conceded one more goal than City, and our problem was in attack.
Willian is harder to gauge, he definitely would've helped us on the RW, but is he enough to win us the league? I don't think so.

 

[SAred]

Well the media have been briefed, we didn't sign a CB because those above Mourinho didn't like his preferred list of targets, this'll surely be the beginning of the end because we know Jose won't take that lying down and when he gets in a fight with those above him we know it'll only end one way

Everyone feared the third season melt down, I was sure it wouldn't happen as long as the club backed him in the transfer window, they haven't....

The board have not backed him how do you figure that out, because he did not get his new defender. Its not has if the board have not backed him they have constantly backed him and where not prepared to pay over the odds for slight upgrades on what we already have available.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If that’s the case what is your problem? We would have gave the manager what he wanted, not for the first time either.

Eh? He didn't get what he wanted. That much is obvious. You seem to have missed my point which is this myth getting trotted about that Woodward didn't want Mourinho to sign a "short term fix" like Toby, while simultaneously sanctioning the signing of someone who is 2 years older!

 

[Cheesy]

Im still confused by all this. Wasnt our main problem last season that we didnt score/create enough goals. Defensively we were one of the best if not the best

We were mostly strong at the back, but it could be argued that was mostly down to Mourinho's qualities in organising a team at the back, and having DDG in goal. Our actual defensive personnel is meddling at best - on ability alone I'd argue Bailly is our best CB but he can be rash and has had his injury problems. Although as you say does leave questions as to whether it was a position we should've been focusing on improving.

 

[Litch]

Then lets dispense with the facade of having a manger in the first place, if the CEO knows best in all facets of the game, and just let Woodward have free license to shape policy at all levels. If the action of the veto is all that's necessary then Woodward should be able to manage the team by proxy in any capacity he pleases. No dout JS should do better with what's available, but I don't like an unqualified little briefing-junkie exploiting the situation when he uses the popularity ( or lack there of ) of a colleague to hide his own inadequacies

That's the broad of the brush response. Most of us are managed by someone who has less knowledge of what we do but the biggest influence on what we do. Not sure why anyone thinks this is different. The CEO doesn't shape policy, he agrees whether it's the right shape and how it influences others. Not sure why anyone thinks this is new, when it's always been the case. People seem to forget that the decisions made, need to be ratified by the board who the CEO is answerable to anyway and even then, ultimately it's down to the owners who sign the cheque.

 

[Mainoldo]

We spent most of the season comfortably behind City in 2nd. Due to how dominant they were the title was effectively gone early on.

I maintain my point - if he genuinely doesn't trust Mourinho's transfers then Mourinho shouldn't be here, and keeping him on for another season thus becomes a poor decision.

So you say but I could also point out if we never fluffed our line with a half time 1-1 score line and a crap Christmas we would have pressure them to the title and looked a lot more dangerous. But we never. We also played no one of real ilk and the champions league and got knocked out comfortably.

So it’s not like it didn’t go down hill from his new contract. Which yet again he use the fans and media to help secure.

 

[cyberman]

Fred and Dalot = £70m. Hardly peanuts. Why they didn't spend further has been briefed by the club. They don't think spending £60+ on 29 and 30 years old to be a good use of their money, and I'd agree with them.

50m net is what he was given. Less than what two of our rivals spent on goalkeepers this season.
We don't live in a vacuum here, we can't start quoting numbers like 60m on two defenders in 3 summers as if its a lot.
Our rivals have either 1 defender that cost more on his own, 2 clubs have goalkeepers that cost more while City have 2/3 defenders who cost slightly less separately

 

[Adisa]

It's no worse than the things Jose says about the players. He's happy to throw them under the bus, so feck him

I want Jose gone as well but can't you see what Ed has done here severlse harms the club? Especially with a manager known for meltingdown. Why would you potentially screw the club like that?

 

[SAred]

I disagree.
Jose arrived. He bought players. We won 2 trophies.
The next Summer, we bought more players. We got 2nd place.
This Summer, we needed one final surge of money, to push for 1st place....we didn't get it.
Year on year there is improvement, though I do agree the football style is boring and definitely needs work.

If Jose leaves and we end up with a "yes man", the board will be in charge of the footballing decisions and you can bet that any player which arrives, will be looked at purely from a financial perspective.

Ed was a disaster, these last 2 months. No sane individual would argue otherwise. Now the football begins and it's time for our manager and players to show their worth.
Let's start talking football.

And you know this how, how do you know one more push would of brought us first place. How people believe that the board has not accommodated the Princess One I never know. Well done Ed for given 2 fingers to Levy also a nice one from Aston Villa for that to.

 

[Mainoldo]

Eh? He didn't get what he wanted. That much is obvious. You seem to have missed my point which is this myth getting trotted about that Woodward didn't want Mourinho to sign a "short term fix" like Toby, while simultaneously sanctioning the signing of someone who is 2 years older!

He obviously didn’t want the short terms fix which is why we didn’t have one. But at the same time he was happy to give Mourinho what he wanted in the right circumstances. I don’t think short term or long term viewing fans would have had a problem with signing Godin. He would have been cheap whilst also a world class defender. Can we say that about the other ‘short term’ fixes?

 

[royboy16]

I think there has been friction lurking in the background a while between JM and the board and it has now reared its head if these reports are true.I think back to those PSG links and maybe they were more relevant than we thought and perhaps he signed that new contract with the promise of more signings who knows.

I see both parties arguments but at the end of the day Utd knew what they were getting,that's JMs style spending lots of money on young and old players but at the end of the day he has proved he wins stuff with this method and that's what made him successful.

 

[edgar allan]

Yet they were apparently fine with signing 32 year old Diego Godin. Go figure.

Logic and sense is thin on the ground.

 

[Handsome Devil]

Hey! Football is back tonight!!

Please United, just go out there and do the talking on the fecking pitch!

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

If we wanted Malcom, Dembele, Mbappe, Kluivert - and so many other RW's then I'm sure the board would have backed mourinho.

However Jose cuts the transfer list by half by an over indulgence of defensive ability. The fans who were shouting out for us to go after Dembele didn't understand this - Willian was the only one who was of any use for us & for 70 odd million then I'm with the boards side.

We need to focus on a better philosophy than one that purely focuses on hardworking older players a couple years away from retiring. The squad above us focus on possession football, techniques & young players whilst the squad below us focus on team work, speed & Gung ho football.

Glad we vetoed Willian.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He obviously didn’t want the short terms fix which is why we didn’t have one. But at the same time he was happy to give Mourinho what he wanted in the right circumstances. I don’t think short term or long term viewing fans would have had a problem with signing Godin. He would have been cheap whilst also a world class defender. Can we say that about the other ‘short term’ fixes?

Godin was the definition of a short term fix, at any price.

Every single other CB we were linked with would still be playing at more or less their current level in another 3 or 4 years time (much longer for some of them). With the turmoil at this club since Fergie retired that's as close as you get to long term!

 

[Cheesy]

So you say but I could also point out if we never fluffed our line with a half time 1-1 score line and a crap Christmas we would have pressure them to the title and looked a lot more dangerous. But we never. We also played no one of real ilk and the champions league and got knocked out comfortably.

So it’s not like it didn’t go down hill from his new contract. Which yet again he use the fans and media to help secure.

But Mourinho signed his new contract offer after all of this...didn't he? In January, from what I can recall, unless I've gotten it drastically wrong. By the time he signed it City were champions in all but name and were over 10 points clear. It was clear at that point we weren't mounting a sustained challenge. We didn't really collapse domestically in that regard.

 

[simplyared]

Have to say this is spot on. Was frustrated we didn’t get anymore but what was the point of buying Boateng (injury prone), Mina or Maguire when they’re too expensive and not that much of an upgrade on what we have now.

The market is insane. I still feel there were opportunities missed but that’s more the managers fault for looking at CM and CB as priority when most feel LB and RW are more pressing to deal with

I may be proved wrong and yes he's a bit of an unknown quantity, but I think it would have been worth the "gamble" getting Mina. Even with the buy back clause. Impressed me at the WC! Unlike you I think CB was top priority and now Everton have taken him and we've missed out and ended up with nothing.

 

[Litch]

Not, if she agreed with her ex to bring in 3 of the cars which are either always broken down or just not that great. It might suggest she's not the one who should be making decisions about cars anyway.

The point is, it's a partnership that both have to be comfortable with. Only in hindsight will we know whether it's the right decision or not. You don't need know about cars, you just know there's no room for another one for lots of other equally important reasons. Making decisions based on past negative relationships is always doomed for failure imo.

 

[Cassidy]

what?

Out of Mourinho's signing's who has been poor?

Poor outputs:

Bailly (mainly due to injuries though)
Lindelof (I still don't understand the signing, his place should have been taken by Tuanzebe if we wanted a backup player for the season to develop)
Mhikitaryan
Sanchez (so far, especially since he could have been signed for free in the summer, and we already had 2 players in his position)
Pogba (failing to settle, looking like he wants to leave, we don't seem to be able to get the best out of him after 2 seasons)

Good outputs:

Lukaku (Decent first season even if 16 league goals is on the low side)
Matic (this is with the caveat that I think his individually performances has been good, but the total outlay on midfield and the dysfunction we STILL have there maybe shows he may have not been the right option, possibly a more mobile partner for Pogba was required.)
Zlatan (I think on a free he did a good job and had a good season, unfortunate he got injured when he did)

We have just spent another 54m on CM after having spent 130m on CM previously and it still not looking like a functioning, settled area of the pitch.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Perisic is not a right winger first of all and we got Mourinho an even better player in Sanchez in January, who is a legitimate world class player and PL experienced to boot and Sanchez hardly improved us. What makes you so sure that Perisic would have improved us?

Apologies for suggesting Perisic is a right winger, he has played predominantly on the left but I like his versatility in being able to play across the front line, including as a second striker in a 352. He showed in the final he can cut onto his left foot to great effect, which could work for us coming in from the right.

 

[kouroux]

Precisely.

Extending his contract makes even less sense too. Why would you do that if you don't also agree to help him get the players he wants (regardless of how well he would have used them because that is another debate)

 

[VP89]

There's no way you can say that as if it's fact.
We sold Blind for Just shy of £20m and his contract was winding down, why would we not be able to sell Rojo for £25m?

Because it was reported by a few outlets (albeit not BBC at the time) that there was interest but wages were a big issue.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...arcos-rojo-man-utd-wage-demands-could-derail/

Blind is not comparable. He only had a 1 year extension on his contract. Rojo has a meaty 4 years at high wages. No club will pay a stupid £25m fee for a player we got for £16m and don't play whatsoever, plus match silly players wages for. Which is why we should have flogged him even if it meant bringing Alderwierald for £30m as you put it.

 

[Wumminator]

Talking about not living in a vacuum but don’t mention that the reason liverpool have spent so much is that they’ve consistently sold their best players.

We’ve given Jose more money than any other manager our club has ever had.

He’s had the highest net spent in the world behind City since he arrived (while they have got rid of a massive amount of players on their wagebill for free)

Mourinho has the most expensive outfield player in the prem and has already got two centre backs for roughly 70 million who look pretty bang average tbf.

Jose has been backed. Fact.

 

[Cassidy]

If they don't trust him then why is he still here? I could understand a debate between Mourinho and the board over certain players but if it's gotten to the point of genuine distrust I'm baffled as to why he remains as our manager. And I say as someone who advocates keeping him on at the moment.

Indeed I don't get it myself, you either back him of you find someone else

 

[JPRouve]

That's my point as well. Woodward and the glazers have hijacked the power corridors at Man utd post Fergie and gill. They dint have the audacity to overpower Sir Alex's judgements.

Typical case of mismanagement in an super successful organization after a super successful powerful figure steps down and hungry for power people wanting to have a say in working matters of the organization takes control.

And Woodward is not a footballing person and neither the character to understand the dynamics of footballing world.

That's not my point at all. I'm talking about competence and you are stuck in a dick swinging contest, when SAF left we lost a set of very special skills that are generally not possessed by a single person, we tried to find a new unicorn when we shouldn't have. Now that issue is totally on the board and I'm thinking about the Glazers not Woodward who is an employee, as long as they maintain this stupid structure we will see the same issues unless we miraculously stumble on a new SAF.

Just as a side note, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers have a GM and a Head Coach.

 

[Cheesy]

Talking about not living in a vacuum but don’t mention that the reason liverpool have spent so much is that they’ve consistently sold their best players.

We’ve given Jose more money than any other manager our club has ever had.

He’s had the highest net spent in the world behind City since he arrived (while they have got rid of a massive amount of players on their wagebill for free)

Mourinho has the most expensive outfield player in the prem and has already got two centre backs for roughly 70 million who look pretty bang average tbf.

Jose has been backed. Fact.

No one's disputing that he has been backed. It's whether he's still being backed, and if he isn't...why is he still here?

 

[simplyared]

Over what exactly? This team should was the floor with Leicester. Signings or not.

When you have a manager on a different page than the people who employed him, then it would be correct to say the club is in limbo imv.