The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

[Rory 7]

O'Neill at United? Seriously? Regarding mclaren there is a say in my area which describe that situation. Its called dodging a bullet. Hence why so many aren't happy of us handling such role out of pure nepotism

Yeah seriously. I think O'Neill is hugely under-rated. Never will happen now but yeah I've no problem admitting I think that highly of him.

 

[Revan]

And how does he do that? By bringing Subderland mid-table and winning the league cup? By winning things abroad? None of that proves a damn thing. His situation at unique now is unique. Either we embrace what the club appear to be planning or we spend the next few years crying for one of the usual suspects.

By getting a small club and doing well, which would give him the oppurtunity of getting a bigger club and then doing there incredibly well (UCL regular qualifications, Europa League win and a couple of FA cups or so). You know, similarily how every manager does.

Mourinho, Ancelotti, Klopp, SImeone didn't just got their big jobs. They did the exact same road that we are saying Giggs should do.

 

[Rory 7]

Which can be formulated to: I want us to get a top proven manager, while you want to gamble with the post and give it to Giggs who is relatively unexperienced?

Something that I mentioned to the Giggs-camp yesterday but unsurprisingly no-one replied: if you are forced to bet your yearly wages (the number is not important, what is important is that assuming that you lose, you will struggle to provide food and other stuff for you and your family) on Giggs or Pep/Mourinho/Ancelotti on being a success at United (and assuming that after the bet you can see the results, going a bit all sci-fi here), which one would you have chosen?

I think this question will be asked at United board? A terrible appointment would feck the club, especially if Van Gaal doesn't win the league/UCL this or next season. 4 years without important trophies, the next appointment would be very important. I would guess that the position of board members, including Ed would be dependent on it.

A long term success?

 

[Rory 7]

By getting a small club and doing well, which would give him the oppurtunity of getting a bigger club and then doing there incredibly well (UCL regular qualifications, Europa League win and a couple of FA cups or so). You know, similarily how every manager does.

Mourinho, Ancelotti, Klopp, SImeone didn't just got their big jobs. They did the exact same road that we are saying Giggs should do.

Mourinho's first job was Benfica. Simeone's first was Estudiantes one of Argentina's biggest clubs. Each of those four have followed a completely different trajectory to one another.

 

[devilish]

Mourinho's first job was Benfica. Simeone's first was Estudiantes one of Argentina's biggest clubs. Each of those four have followed a completely different trajectory to one another.

None of them are even near to us

 

[Rory 7]

None of them are even near to us

Yeah one is in Portugal the other is in Argentina.

 

[Crossie]

To me it is a lot harder to be the manager of the team than be one of the senior member of the board, manager or head coaches is a very solitary and difficult job.

Agree. Klinsmann and his unsuccessful and therefore short spell aside, I can't recall a single manager of Bayern's 1st team who was a former Bayern player from the last decade. Perhaps not even an assistant to the 1st team's manager, Bayern fans will know better than me. I only remember Mehmet Scholl who became one of their lower teams' managers for a while, and Stefan Effenberg who got an offer for their amateurs or youth (?) but declined.

 

[jojojo]

Yeah one is in Portugal the other is in Argentina.

Estudiantes hadn't won the league for 20 years. Mourinho took over as caretaker manager at Benfica with the season underway.

 

[Rory 7]

Estudiantes hadn't won the league for 20 years. Mourinho took over as caretaker manager at Benfica with the season underway.

Are they top clubs in their respective countries? Did both managers get the job with no prior 1st team management experience at a lower level? The answer is yes to both of these questions.

 

[Rory 7]

Agree. Klinsmann and his unsuccessful and therefore short spell aside, I can't recall a single manager of Bayern's 1st team who was a former Bayern player from the last decade. Perhaps not even an assistant to the 1st team's manager, Bayern fans will know better than me. I only remember Mehmet Scholl who became one of their lower teams' managers for a while, and Stefan Effenberg who got an offer for their amateurs or youth (?) but declined.

You have to go back further to Bekenbauer's two reigns as first team coach. Bayern do however promote legends to senior roles. Sammer is the director of football for example despite not exactly setting he works alight in his time as manager at Dortmund and Stuttgart.

 

[Revan]

Mourinho's first job was Benfica. Simeone's first was Estudiantes one of Argentina's biggest clubs. Each of those four have followed a completely different trajectory to one another.

Mourinho's job to Benfica was similar to Giggs in 13-14 season. He lead them for a few weeks and it was known from the beginning that he won't continue there. Then he got Uniao when he overachieved, and that got him the Porto job. He overachieved there again, which got him Chelsea job. He needed to do well there, and then overachieve with Inter in order to get the Madrid job (which is at-least comparable with United job). That is obviously after he was assistant manager to Robson and Van Gaal.


Simeone started with Racing at Spain (a small club), before he got the Estudiantes job (and let's be fair here, clubs in Argentina nowadays are several levels below European counterparts). He did very well there, which have him River Plate job, when he again did very well. After that, he had to go to Catania and Racing (again). You see, after doing well in tope Argentinian clubs, he had to go to small European clubs. Only after a very good job in these clubs, he got the Atletico job which was more comparable with Spurs than United job. His next job will be a big one, but that is because he overachieved with Atletico.

I don't expect Giggs to do a Simeone and Mourinho (win the league or UCL despite not being near the favorites). But he should be able to do at-least some good job in smaller clubs (an European league trophy, an FA/Carling Cup or European equivalents, maybe a league title in some smaller league like Holland or Portugal) before he should be considered for the United job. Even there he would be a disadvantage (all those achievements I mentioned are far below what Simeone/Klopp have done, let alone Mourinho/Pep/Ancelotti) but him being Giggs should compensate for that. But as it is, him being Giggs compensates for everything. His CV isn't comparable even with the likes of McLaren and Queiroz, let alone with the very top managers.

A long term success?

Who cares? You can be very succesful without a long term manager. Barca has won in the last decade more than we have won in the last 40 years. Real are more succesful (and thus) have a greater pull than us. Same for Bayern.

You don't choose the manager in basis of how long he'll be here. Well, we did that with Moyes and it should be used as a case study on how to not do things. You choose the manager and his actual ability, and then if things go right, there is a high chance that he'll stay for long.

 

[JPRouve]

You have to go back further to Bekenbauer's two reigns as first team coach. Bayern do however promote legends to senior roles. Sammer is the director of football for example despite not exactly setting he works alight in his time as manager at Dortmund and Stuttgart.

Beckenbauer won the world cup with Germany.

 

[Rory 7]

Mourinho's job to Benfica was similar to Giggs in 13-14 season. He lead them for a few weeks and it was known from the beginning that he won't continue there. Then he got Uniao when he overachieved, and that got him the Porto job. He overachieved there again, which got him Chelsea job. He needed to do well there, and then overachieve with Inter in order to get the Madrid job (which is at-least comparable with United job). That is obviously after he was assistant manager to Robson and Van Gaal.


Simeone started with Racing at Spain (a small club), before he got the Estudiantes job (and let's be fair here, clubs in Argentina nowadays are several levels below European counterparts). He did very well there, which have him River Plate job, when he again did very well. After that, he had to go to Catania and Racing (again). You see, after doing well in tope Argentinian clubs, he had to go to small European clubs. Only after a very good job in these clubs, he got the Atletico job which was more comparable with Spurs than United job. His next job will be a big one, but that is because he overachieved with Atletico.

I don't expect Giggs to do a Simeone and Mourinho (win the league or UCL despite not being near the favorites). But he should be able to do at-least some good job in smaller clubs (an European league trophy, an FA/Carling Cup or European equivalents, maybe a league title in some smaller league like Holland or Portugal) before he should be considered for the United job. Even there he would be a disadvantage (all those achievements I mentioned are far below what Simeone/Klopp have done, let alone Mourinho/Pep/Ancelotti) but him being Giggs should compensate for that. But as it is, him being Giggs compensates for everything. His CV isn't comparable even with the likes of McLaren and Queiroz, let alone with the very top managers.

Who cares? You can be very succesful without a long term manager. Barca has won in the last decade more than we have won in the last 40 years. Real are more succesful (and thus) have a greater pull than us. Same for Bayern.

You don't choose the manager in basis of how long he'll be here. Well, we did that with Moyes and it should be used as a case study on how to not do things. You choose the manager and his actual ability, and then if things go right, there is a high chance that he'll stay for long.

So on that basis McClaren would have been in the running for you post-Boro? He ticked almost all those boxes.

 

[Rory 7]

Beckenbauer won the world cup with Germany.

That's right. In his first coaching job. Yes that's right. The World Cup.

 

[Crossie]

You have to go back further to Bekenbauer's two reigns as first team coach. Bayern do however promote legends to senior roles. Sammer is the director of football for example despite not exactly setting he works alight in his time as manager at Dortmund and Stuttgart.

Wasn't Beckenbauer first the coach of German's national team? Pretty sure he was (as Klinsmann), and that's my point: Get some experience first where you are truly held accountable for your work, not just an apprentenceship.

I'm not against promoting any legends to club positions per se, quite the opposite. But they must have proven their capabilities in a way, and nowhere is this of utmost importance than in the manager's position. Everything else is a big risk, and it depends on the actual position a club is in and its ambition if it's worthwhile taking that risk.

 

[JPRouve]

That's right. In his first coaching job. Yes that's right. The World Cup.

You can hire a novice as national manager, it's a light version of managing a club and provide a great experience.

 

[Rory 7]

Wasn't Beckenbauer first the coach of German's national team? Pretty sure he was (as Klinsmann), and that's my point: Get some experience first where you are truly held accountable for your work, not just an apprentenceship.

I'm not against promoting any legends to club positions per se, quite the opposite. But they must have proven their capabilities in a way, and nowhere is this of utmost importance than in the manager's position. Everything else is a big risk, and it depends on the actual position a club is in and its ambition if it's worthwhile taking that risk.

He won the World Cup! In his first job. Where did Beckenbauer 'prove' his capabilities?

 

[Revan]

So on that basis McClaren would have been in the running for you post-Boro? He ticked almost all those boxes.

He had a Carling Cup post-Boro. That doesn't make it, IMO.

I said an European League cup (or yesterday I mentioned to have qualified a midtable club regularily for UCL) in addition to other trophies like FA Cup or maybe a league title in some smaller league. Even then, he won't be comparable with Pep and Mourinho, but him being Giggs should compensate for that. McLaren wasn't Giggs of course, so in order for him to get the job in merit, eh should have had a similar CV to top managers.

If we divide managers in a few scales (not counting oldies like LVG, Wenger, Trappatoni etc, for obvious reasons):

- Level 1: Pep, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Simeone, Klopp
- Level 2: Enrique, Conte, Pellegrini, Benitez
- Level 3: Garcia, Emery, Blanc, De Bour, Tuchel, Moyes, Mazzari, Spalleti, Prandelli, Pochetino, Martinez
- Level 4: Bruce, McLaren, Allardyce, Pullis, O'Neal and the European counterparts (i.e mediocre managers from all the leagues)

Then in my opinion, Giggs should get the job only if his achievements are comparable with at-least upper half of level 3 managers (i.e the first four), but preferably with those in level 2. I don't expect him to be a level 1 manager in order to get the job, but currently he isn't even level 4 manager. He should at least surpass the likes of typical mediocre managers in England, and some bright young ones in level 3, to be considered.

Obvoiously, that list on levels is totally arbitrary and most likely I have forgot some managers that should be in second and third tier. You can make an another list.

 

[Rory 7]

You can hire a novice as national manager, it's a light version of managing a club and provide a great experience.

Oh I see. So I guess that's what England have been doing wrong since 1966.

 

[Rory 7]

He had a Carling Cup post-Boro. That doesn't make it, IMO.

I said an European cup (or yesterday I mentioned to have qualified a midtable club regularily for UCL) in addition to other trophies like FA Cup or maybe a league title in some smaller league. Even then, he won't be comparable with Pep and Mourinho, but him being Giggs should compensate for that. McLaren wasn't Giggs of course, so in order for him to get the job in merit, eh should have had a similar CV to top managers.

If we divide managers in a few scales (not counting oldies like LVG, Wenger, Trappatoni etc, for obvious reasons):

- Level 1: Pep, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Simeone, Klopp
- Level 2: Enrique, Conte, Pellegrini, Benitez
- Level 3: Garcia, Emery, Blanc, De Bour, Tuchel, Moyes, Mazzari, Spalleti, Prandelli, Pochetino, Martinez
- Level 4: Bruce, McLaren, Allardyce, Pullis, O'Neal and the European counterparts (i.e mediocre managers from all the leagues)

Then in my opinion, Giggs should get the job only if his achievements are comparable with at-least upper half of level 3 managers (i.e the first four), but preferably with those in level 2. I don't expect him to be a level 1 manager in order to get the job, but currently he isn't even level 4 manager. He should at least surpass the likes of tupical mediocre managers in England, and some bright young ones in level 3, to be considered.

Obvoiously, that list on levels is totally arbitrary and most likely I have forgot some managers that should be in second and third tier. You can make an another list.

He won a league cup with Boro, brought team to a UEFA cup final and led them to their highest premier league finish. As a result he got the England job. So much for 'proving yourself' at a lower level.

 

[JPRouve]

He won the World Cup! In his first job. Where did Beckenbauer 'prove' his capabilities?

It's a national manager job, the expectations are totally different they solely rely on the quality of the player at your disposal and it's not a day to day job. At club level, the manager needs to be able to plan for the future, plan the present, deal with weekly injuries, improve his players.
You will often see a novice land a national job, Platini, Beckenbauer, Dunga but it's extremely rare at club level.

 

[Revan]

He won a league cup with Boro, brought team to a UEFA cup final and led them to their highest premier league finish. As a result he got the England job. So much for 'proving yourself' at a lower level.

Still it is less than what I think Giggs should win in order to qualify for United job. In that sentence, Giggs is the keyword because of his legendary status, him working with SAF and LVG, and him being groomed for the job.

For some other candidate, then it should have credentials comparable with Pep and Mourinho.

 

[Crossie]

He won the World Cup! In his first job. Where did Beckenbauer 'prove' his capabilities?

Let me ask you: Are you of the opinion that a national coach, manager, or "Team Chef" as the Germans named his position can be anyone without capabilities?

 

[Rory 7]

Still it is less than what I think Giggs should win in order to qualify for United job. In that sentence, Giggs is the keyword because of his legendary status, him working with SAF and LVG, and him being groomed for the job.

For some other candidate, then it should have credentials comparable with Pep and Mourinho.

That's because you want to chose our next manager from the usual suspects of Pep, Jose, Simeone or Ancellotti. God forbid the club tries to do something innovative.

 

[Rory 7]

Let me ask you: Are you of the opinion that a national coach, manager, or "Team Chef" as the Germans named his position can be anyone without capabilities?

Of course not. Are you of the opinion Giggs has no capability? Clearly you are. And using your judgement the Germans wouldn't have appointed Beckenbauer.

 

[JPRouve]

Of course not. Are you of the opinion Giggs has no capability? Clearly you are. And using your judgement the Germans wouldn't have appointed Beckenbauer.

Beckenbauer was a general on the field, his capabilities were obvious for everyone. Maybe Giggs has the same capabilities but they are not obvious, he wasn't the type of player who organized his teammates on the field. Players like Deschamps, Laurent Blanc, Pochettino, Schweinsteiger, Xavi, Beckenbauer, Guardiola or Cruyff have shown that characteristic, Giggs didn't.
Obviously it doesn't mean that he isn't a great coach and potentially a great manager but you have to admit that when he was playing from the outside you don't see a future great coach, Carrick looks like a future manager.

 

[Walrus]

Beckenbauer was a general on the field, his capabilities were obvious for everyone. Maybe Giggs has the same capabilities but they are not obvious,

Just because something is not apparent to us as fans, does not mean it cannot be apparent to those with far better knowledge of the situation. ie those inside the club.

 

[Revan]

That's because you want to chose our next manager from the usual suspects of Pep, Jose, Simeone or Ancellotti. God forbid the club tries to do something innovative.

Gambling doesn't count as innovative. It has existed for centuries.

 

[JPRouve]

Just because something is not apparent to us as fans, does not mean it cannot be apparent to those with far better knowledge of the situation. ie those inside the club.

Which I said numerous times. And that's why I'm not categorically against it, I'm against the rationalization from fans based on Giggs career, that's a bs rationalization.
I wanted Giggs to be given a chance after Moyes, it was a time for a gamble. But now after two years of underachievement, we are putting ourselves on the right track, so there is no room for a gamble. If we really want to hire Giggs than it should be after a top manager and a little bit of success, for example we hire Ancelotti for three years with Giggs as his assistant and we hire Giggs after that on a 1 year contract.

 

[Balu]

You have to go back further to Bekenbauer's two reigns as first team coach. Bayern do however promote legends to senior roles. Sammer is the director of football for example despite not exactly setting he works alight in his time as manager at Dortmund and Stuttgart.

Sammer taking over at Dortmund shortly after he retired from playing would actually be a good example for your point. Sammer becoming director of football at Bayern is the exact opposite. After his spell as manager at Dortmund for 4 years, when he became the youngest Bundesliga winning manager ever, he worked for 6 years as the director of the German youth set-up during the most successful period of our youth nationalteams ever. When he took over at Bayern, he was the natural and perfect fit for the position because of his experience and success as a player, coach and director in football. And Sammer wasn't even promoted internally, he had no connection to Bayern prior to 2012.

Also Beckenbauer twice took over as interim manager for the rest of a season after we kicked out Ribbeck in 1992 and Rehagel in 1996, like Giggs was the manager until the end of the season after Moyes was fired. Hardly comparable to what you want from Giggs now. Beckenbauer actually never really was a manager. He never had a coaching license or anything like that, which is why we created an artificial position for him at the nationalteam. Without a license he wasn't allowed to be the official manager according to FIFA rules. He was an incredible inspirational figure who knew how to motivate his players and who was smart enough to leave the actual coaching and tactics to his assistants (first Köppel and later Osieck were the 'official' managers of the nationalteam between 84 and 90).

 

[Crossie]

Of course not. Are you of the opinion Giggs has no capability? Clearly you are. And using your judgement the Germans wouldn't have appointed Beckenbauer.

Beckenbauer was in fact a risk for the national team, and that's exactly why Germany's DFB appointed next to him in his role as Team Chef (he didn't have a manager's licence) very experienced assistent managers. Something which to me would be unthinkable at a club, but that may be old-school me.
Let's also not forget that in total, Beckenbauer served for about 5-6 years as Team Chef. He went to a French club then, if my memory serves me right, and returned to Bayern as president or so. He only had one or two interim manager spells at Bayern thereafter when their manager was sacked or left before the end of the season, but never for a full campaign. Bayern fans can prove me wrong but that's how I recall it on top of my head.

As your starting point was that Bayern promotes inexperienced legends into key positions which I responded to that bar Klinsmann I can't recall this for the key position of the manager - which is the only one that matters in the discussion whether Giggs should become next United manager or not - I update my response: Bar Klinsmann, even for an interim manager position at Bayern you're required to have proven some capabilities as a manager; Klinsmann's case actually proved how important it is to not get carried away by short-term "success".

I'm not saying that Giggs is incapable of being a manager. I do say, however, that I do not know how he has proven at least some capabilities. What exactly is he responsible for which he's held accountable for, which criteria are set?

 

[Walrus]

I wanted Giggs to be given a chance after Moyes, it was a time for a gamble. But now after two years of underachievement, we are putting ourselves on the right track, so there is no room for a gamble.

See I thought the opposite. After Ferguson, I thought we should have brought in Mourinho to steady the ship for a couple of years and handle the transition. Instead we had the Moyes disaster, and after that it was even more important to bring in a strong character for the same reasons. Mourinho obviously wasnt available, so LVG was arguably the next best thing for coming in and handling what was potentially a very problematic situation. At that stage, I think the job would have been too much to entrust to Giggs, and I dont think he would have had enough time as a coach/AM to make the jump successfully.

Now however, Giggs will have more years under his belt, a strong team left by LVG, an experienced backroom staff etc. All the pieces have been put in place, all the foundations laid out for him to be a success.

 

[Crossie]

@Balu
I was responding to the Bayern case that was made, with club legends being promoted into key positions. Sammer doesn't fit that bill.

 

[JPRouve]

See I thought the opposite. After Ferguson, I thought we should have brought in Mourinho to steady the ship for a couple of years and handle the transition. Instead we had the Moyes disaster, and after that it was even more important to bring in a strong character for the same reasons. Mourinho obviously wasnt available, so LVG was arguably the next best thing for coming in and handling what was potentially a very problematic situation. At that stage, I think the job would have been too much to entrust to Giggs, and I dont think he would have had enough time as a coach/AM to make the jump successfully.

Now however, Giggs will have more years under his belt, a strong team left by LVG, an experienced backroom staff etc. All the pieces have been put in place, all the foundations laid out for him to be a success.

And I don't think that all the pieces will be in place, after LVG you need a pragmatic and after the pragmatic you can do whatever you want.

 

[Crossie]

Now however, Giggs will have more years under his belt, a strong team left by LVG, an experienced backroom staff etc. All the pieces have been put in place, all the foundations laid out for him to be a success.

I'm asking this in curious and open way: What exactly is Giggs doing as assistant? For example, it's known from Klopp's assistant what they are doing. It's known for some other assistant managers in the Bundesliga. Has it ever been reported what Giggs' responsibilities are? Analyzing opponents?Liaising with scouts? Organizing particular parts of training? Does anybody know? Thanks.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm asking this in curious and open way: What exactly is Giggs doing as assistant? For example, it's known from Klopp's assistant what they are doing. It's known for some other assistant managers in the Bundesliga. Has it ever been reported what Giggs' responsibilities are? Analyzing opponents?Liaising with scouts? Organizing particular parts of training? Does anybody know? Thanks.

Analyzing opponents with Bout and some speaches.

 

[Crossie]

Analyzing opponents with Bout and some speaches.

I see, thanks. That's something to build upon if he's not just sitting on the sideline in that analysis exercise - but is it enough for taking over a club as ambitious as United? That's the key question. If I were owner or a board member, it would be a too big risk in such a competitive league as the EPL.

 

[Balu]

@Balu
I was responding to the Bayern case that was made, with club legends being promoted into key positions. Sammer doesn't fit that bill.

I know, but he would fit the bill if we look at his spell as manager at Dortmund. He had his peak years under Hitzfeld and then was co-manager under Lattek for a short spell, that's learning from the two greatest German managers of all time. He took over as manager full time in 2000 only 32 years old and less than 2 years after he tired from playing. And he lead Dortmund to a league title and an UEFA cup final within 2 years. I'm sure it was exciting for Dortmund fans to see their club legend in charge and being so successful.

 

[Walrus]

I'm asking this in curious and open way: What exactly is Giggs doing as assistant? For example, it's known from Klopp's assistant what they are doing. It's known for some other assistant managers in the Bundesliga. Has it ever been reported what Giggs' responsibilities are? Analyzing opponents?Liaising with scouts? Organizing particular parts of training? Does anybody know? Thanks.

Honestly I dont know the specifics. What we do know is that he is effectively being mentored and groomed for the role, and that LVG has said before that he (Giggs) has been taking on some managerial responsibilities. I take that as meaning that LVG is trying to prepare Giggs for the role, and his responsibilities and duties would reflect that.

 

[JPRouve]

Honestly I dont know the specifics. What we do know is that he is effectively being mentored and groomed for the role, and that LVG has said before that he (Giggs) has been taking on some managerial responsibilities. I take that as meaning that LVG is trying to prepare Giggs for the role, and his responsibilities and duties would reflect that.

The same thing can be said about Stuivenberg, we are probably seeing our next #1 and #2.