So Poch isn't that? Bloody hell, by your standards who then in the whole world? Klopp, Pep and maybe Tuchel, right?
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
You know the answer and just because he's not good enough for you it doesn't mean he's not good enough in general, as this is a weird logic. "I personally don't like a proven manager, so he doesn't count, let's stick with the current failing manager instead".
Spot on for me. Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola are the only 2 coaches I see who can have the fastest impact at United. Also maybe Jose Mourinho (for no more than 2 seasons), but that ship has (thankfully) sailed.
The rest of them are just copy paste 'Let's hope for the best'.
Chances of us getting Klopp or Pep? ummm Nope.
Just going to break down the fallacies that are being peddled by the same names. Its as if they believe if they keep repeating the points they are making these will eventually become acceptable reasons to hammer Ole.
1/ Comparing Ole to Klopp
Please ask yourselves and answer truly. Why are you not taking into account the quality of the players that Klopp had available to him with those that Ole had when he took over Cardiff...?
Cardiff are streets and miles away from a club of Liverpools standing. You only have to compare the pull of such a historic club not to mention the difference in funds that are available to them.
How you are not taking into account such disproportionate differences between Cardiff and Liverpool when using Klopp as an example to beat Ole with the proverbial stick..?
As others have correctly insinuated, by the standards you are setting for Ole, Klopp should have been sacked at the end of the 2015/2016 season
2/ Comparing Ole to Pep
This is even more mind boggling then #1.
Again as many others have alluded to, City had been building their squad to Pep's specification for several years before he took over.
How you peeps can conveniently disregard this is way over my head with regards to critical thinking.
And still in his first full season in charge they manged to fortuitously scrape into 4th place.
3/ Using Leicester City as a 'measuring stick'
This is a team that won the Premier league three years ago and have added to a squad that was already reasonably well balanced.
They have also been able to field a consistant starting 11, bar one or two players for every Premier league game this season.
Those who understands football will recognise the significance in being able to play such a consistent line up along with a nucleus of players who have won the Premier League.
4/ "But we are Manchester United"
Again, as other posters have pointed out, there is no basis for this petulant arrogance.
We have no given right to monopolise the Premier League as our past achievements occurred in a period of time that is not comparable to the present time.
Not only do we have to compete with other teams who have either equal or more money to spend, we are having to do this at a time where no strategic long term planning had taken place since SAF retired.
And of course there is a price to pay for this (for those that understand) as we are seeing this in our NET spend these last few years as it is nowhere near what one would expect to see for a club of our size.
5/ We no longer are able to pay our players comparative wages to the 'biggest sporting' teams
These results were published the other day and our club is spending significantly less wages for its squad of players when compared to other giants in the game.
This obviously is going to have a knock on effect to the quality of player we are able to draw to Old Trafford.
6/ Comparing our performance against teams we are expected to beat, while conveniently down playing our achievements against the top 6.
Please tell me what are those 'lowly teams' record against the top six?
Of course, the Ole out brigade will never discuss this, its as if our results against the top 6 are of no significance but the result of the teams who are currently above us in the league table are used as a hammer to drive down these achievements.
Now onto Ole....
Yes, there is no doubt that any other manager with Ole CV would not have got the job as manager of Manchester United.
But with things being as they are there should be no reason why we should not allow Ole the time to grow with our club and implement the values that we associate with Manchester United.
That there are significant risks in allowing Ole to lead our team into a new direction, this is obvious, but as a legend of this club who has worked under the leadership of Sir Alex he should be allowed the time to do this.
Those of you who cannot understand the above points then you don't really understand the dynamics of football.
But not only that, you fail to understand the true essence of this club and that is to respect the manager and support the club.
1/ Comparing Ole to Klopp
Please ask yourselves and answer truly. Why are you not taking into account the quality of the players that Klopp had available to him with those that Ole had when he took over Cardiff...?
Cardiff are streets and miles away from a club of Liverpools standing. You only have to compare the pull of such a historic club not to mention the difference in funds that are available to them.
How you are not taking into account such disproportionate differences between Cardiff and Liverpool when using Klopp as an example to beat Ole with the proverbial stick..?
As others have correctly insinuated, by the standards you are setting for Ole, Klopp should have been sacked at the end of the 2015/2016 season
2/ Comparing Ole to Pep
This is even more mind boggling then #1.
Again as many others have alluded to, City had been building their squad to Pep's specification for several years before he took over.
How you peeps can conveniently disregard this is way over my head with regards to critical thinking.
And still in his first full season in charge they manged to fortuitously scrape into 4th place.
3/ Using Leicester City as a 'measuring stick'
This is a team that won the Premier league three years ago and have added to a squad that was already reasonably well balanced.
They have also been able to field a consistant starting 11, bar one or two players for every Premier league game this season.
Those who understands football will recognise the significance in being able to play such a consistent line up along with a nucleus of players who have won the Premier League.
4/ "But we are Manchester United"
Again, as other posters have pointed out, there is no basis for this petulant arrogance.
We have no given right to monopolise the Premier League as our past achievements occurred in a period of time that is not comparable to the present time.
Not only do we have to compete with other teams who have either equal or more money to spend, we are having to do this at a time where no strategic long term planning had taken place since SAF retired.
And of course there is a price to pay for this (for those that understand) as we are seeing this in our NET spend these last few years as it is nowhere near what one would expect to see for a club of our size.
5/ We no longer are able to pay our players comparative wages to the 'biggest sporting' teams
These results were published the other day and our club is spending significantly less wages for its squad of players when compared to other giants in the game.
This obviously is going to have a knock on effect to the quality of player we are able to draw to Old Trafford.
6/ Comparing our performance against teams we are expected to beat, while conveniently down playing our achievements against the top 6.
Please tell me what are those 'lowly teams' record against the top six?
Of course, the Ole out brigade will never discuss this, its as if our results against the top 6 are of no significance but the result of the teams who are currently above us in the league table are used as a hammer to drive down these achievements.
Now onto Ole....
Yes, there is no doubt that any other manager with Ole CV would not have got the job as manager of Manchester United.
But with things being as they are there should be no reason why we should not allow Ole the time to grow with our club and implement the values that we associate with Manchester United.
That there are significant risks in allowing Ole to lead our team into a new direction, this is obvious, but as a legend of this club who has worked under the leadership of Sir Alex he should be allowed the time to do this.
Those of you who cannot understand the above points then you don't really understand the dynamics of football.
But not only that, you fail to understand the true essence of this club and that is to respect the manager and support the club.
He was also the master of fecking off parasites. Sorry mate but there’s a line with it all. Groups who are with you groups who can be managed to your way of thinking and groups who cannot and need to be rid of. Fergie was ruthless
Getting rid of both them was the right call. Neither wanted to be here. They wanted to get paid gross amounts of money and put in half a shift. That’s why they failed. He got rid of Fellaini as well. He bought well, he’s managed youth well. He’s got a lot right. Any one who’s ever managed a situation in any sort of industry knows sometimes you need to take a short term hit to get to where you need to be. I’ve done it personally.
Top 4 isn't a realistic target at the moment I think that's part of the OP post. We needed a rebuild since Ferguson left and it's only happening now . This January window is massive though
Answer me this.
Do you honestly believe that someone like Brendan Rodgers would have had the exact same results and have been where we are currently at Christmas with the squad we currently have?
I’m not expecting any manager to challenge with the squad we have, but to underperform the way we have is absolutely criminal.
If it was someone like Big Sam or Pardew in charge they’d have been sacked by now, because it’s Ole though I think people like yourself are looking for any excuse not to get rid.
Reality is, he’s out of his depth. He has one tactic and that’s to attack on the counter, when that doesn’t work the team falls apart.
I thought so at first too but halfway into the season I'm starting to get doubts as of how good his signings have actually been. Maguire has yet not had the impact most of us expected for such an ginormous fee. His passing was also supposed to be one of his main assets and from what I've seen so far it's been absolutely shambolic at times.
Dan James has some potential but never top quality potential, he's a squad player at best. AWB is a very talented defender but going forward he's on the verge of useless. Modern fullbacks need to have a balance between good defense and offence but even excelling in attack could at times be more useful than someone only capable of putting in a good shift defensively. Maybe even Aarons from Norwhich should have been someone looked at.
Either way my point is halfway into the season I think it's certainly arguable as of how "good" his signings have actually been because so far I'm not overly impressed...
This is a great post. Factual, realistic and balanced, none of the emotional blah-blah-blah
Why? Why should his past with us as a player allow him extra time and patience as a manager? And especially, why is his history with Sir Alex important in any way? Working under a great manager has nothing to do with becoming one.
My expectations this season were always low. I did not expect any achievements, I wasn't too bothered by the scores - because we were never going to have a great team this season. It was about building, and especially Solskjaer instilling a style of play that would not be perfect right now and would need more time, players and experience, but would be something to build on.
I'm not seeing that style. I'm not actually sure what his football is about other than counter attacks against the big sides. Talking about attacking football, high defence lines and pressing looks silly when you go on and sign a slow centerhalf and a right back who can't attack
Depends on the level of trust they would have had. Trust begets patience. There are many reasons why Ole has the trust to keep going, but you make it sound like it's blind faith and it is not!
I guarantee you - if Ole didn't win City game against Pep, the second best manager of our times, and Spurs game against our former manager - the most decorated current EPL manager, Ole would have been sacked already. He bought himself time, and he doesn't owe you anything. He earned it
He's not bought well at all, he bought obvious and safe British players, none of whom are going to elevate us to the next level. I like AWB but I don't expect him to be a mainstay in a few years. I never wanted Maguire and still fail to see what he brings to the team over Smalling, his passing isn't that great and I've seen milk turn quicker. James is a good squad player but if he's never going to be a starter for a top team. A very useful sub but as we have seen since October, if he doesn't have space to exploit he's pretty one dimensional. The suggestion he bought well is the biggest myth peddled by his supporters.
In a multi billion pound business you cannot afford to sacrifice the short term. Share holders and sponsors don't care about long term visions and talk of philosophies and cultures. They look at the bottom line and this will ultimately will be what costs Ole his job because we've proven over the years since Fergie our decisions are rarely based on footballing reasons. If we cared about the footballing side he wouldn't have been offered a contact before the summer, but once the season ticket renewals come and the Adidas money reduces after 2 years out of the CL the board will act and it'll be Solksjaer's head on the block no matter how much he begs them to give him more time.
I love the player, but as a manager he is well out of his depth and I'm afraid he's going to tarnish his legacy.
Pretty much. Although not Tuchel, he's pretty shite.
Poch has proven nothing in terms of being a winner, nor has he proven anything remarkable. He did a nice, tidy job at Espanyol and Southampton and he cemented Spurs' place in the top four (but let's not rewrite history because they were challenging under Harry and AVB and they've gotten lucky with United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea faltering at various points over the last 5 years).
He's proven everything it seems in terms of being able to do a nice job on a limited budget but United isn't that. That's the exact same scenario that led SAF to believe Moyes would do the job for us - nice job on a limited budget - ergo until he proves he's capable of handling a massive club in a massive rebuild then handing him the keys to United would be a giant gamble.
There are few managers out there right now, if any at all that could handle being at a club the size of United, handle the rebuild required by getting rid of most of the squad, replacing them with the right players, hamstrung by Ed and the Glazers and form a cohesive unit with a style of play to suit all within the complete and utter lack of patience that all the OleOut posters in here are showing.
We need to potentially sort out our goalkeepers, either through better coaching or replacing. Is De Gea done or does he need someone new to work with him? Do we sack him off and let Hendo or Romero have a go?
We need to sort out the defence, replace the dross left: Jones, Rojo, Bailly, Shaw, Young and identify new targets to fit in at CB and LB, plus hope that Maguire improves and AWB improves plus blood in the likes of Williams and Laird.
We need an entirely new set of midfielders to not only fit in and help the likes of Pogba (if he stays) but provide alternative options to the ones we've got, both in terms of squad depth and in terms of qualities that can help us when we can't just play counter attacking football. Players that are competent on the ball, work hard off it, understand each other, etc - all being coached and improved and integrated and also within the proviso that Ed and the Glazers actually shell out the cash needed. Plus we need to get rid of Matic and Pereira and potentially integrate Garner, Levitt et al properly.
We need an entirely new set of forwards to supplement the likes of Rashford and Martial or even get rid of Martial if he doesn't improve but also improve Dan James and identify those players that we can bring in (and they defintiely won't be cheap or done over one or two windows). We've also gotta find the right balance for Greenwood's development and keep him going because he's a long way off the pace aside from goals right now.
We also need to identify a solid plan that we're gonna stick to in lieu of a DoF/technical director coming in (it's never gonna happen) and get the right scouting network in place (remember the stats about who we had under SAF versus City's network? It's amateur hour compared to the other big clubs). Our scouts for basically the past decade have been phoning it in and we've let them identify some of the worst buys in the club's history and our managers that we've sacked have saddled us with players that they wanted too that were also some of the worst buys in the club's history. Three managers worth of shite plus Sir Alex thinking he'd left the squad in a good place and being sorely, sorely mistaken have meant it's been at least a decade of shambles transfer wise hence we've got the shite squad we do now.
We need to do this as mentioned with Ed Woodward in charge of doing deals and the Glazers responsible for money which would make Pep and Klopp cry and probably sack it off. We don't know how good in reality they are at making the right deals but comparing how we do things with Leicester, Spurs, Liverpool, City, etc is needless because they operate differently and clearly the way we operate is terrible and we've no idea how willing the powers that be are to fix that.
We also need to instill a mentality in the players we have right now and those going forward that we bring in that hasn't been there since SAF left nearly 7 years ago to fight and continue to fight and be dominant and be Manchester United. Instead right now we've got a whole bunch of unpredictable, inconsistent youngsters and players left over from past regimes that are either past it and are just collecting paycheques or were never good enough to begin with. Again that's a long, long time worth of shite mentality that we need to reverse and then drill into our players, it's gonna take a long, long time for that to happen.
So to do all of that mentioned, which manager out there is suitable for it? It's a near impossble task to right the ship, stabilise it and then get it back to where it needs to be. Right now we've been pissing about with new captains of the ship crashing into further icebergs and weighing the ship down in the process and Ole in summer was the first to get rid of some of that weight and identify the right way to go.
So forgive me for having patience and appreciating the sheer scale of the task befalling ANY manager that would take it on. Ole may very well be utterly shite but at least there's been some semblance that he also appreciates the sheer scale of it all. People like to harp on about Jose talking about it and we didn't wanna hear it at the time well now it's time we listened, it's already too late in most instances but at least someone there is doing something to try and solve it and he's currently the manager of the club. I didn't get that sense with Moyes, I didn't get it with LVG despite his 'philosophy' because he tried to change things too quickly and didn't immediately boot out the players that we had left over so it was never gonna work and I damn sure didn't get it when Jose was spaffing cash on fecking Lukaku and Sanchez.
FINALLY this summer there was progress in terms of seeing where we were going. Identifying defenders that we needed so we could FINALLY stop seeing Jones and Smalling on the teamsheet. The defence is struggling because the midfield is a woeful screen against attacks and also because they've not been coached properly and confidence is low. Ole can take some of the flack for this of course because he's by no means doing a great job but at least targets were identified and bought and we started on at least one element of the massive, MASSIVE rebuld/rethink that we need.
IF we don't then buy the required midfielders - defensive midfielders to screen the defence first please plus some creative, great on the ball, great under pressure forward thinking types to supplement it - I will be worried and if we don't also improve the forward line too in the same vein then it'll be worrying but then who do we point the finger at? The manager? In which case we sack him and we put another poor sod in charge and have this exact thread another year or so down the line OR the old, consistent evil of Ed and the Glazers? What if all this time they've known how big the rebuild is and they're just milking us until the club runs dry and then they'll sell us to the Saudis? If that's true then it really doesn't matter which manager is in charge or whether any of us are OleIn or OleOut because the poor bloke never stood a chance and nor would any other manager, Poch, Allegri, Pep, Klopp, et al.
There are so many unknowns and it's highly likely Ole is out of his depth but when you take a step back and consider it all, who wouldn't be? The problem with sacking him and getting in someone else is it's a huge, huge gamble and it's much more likely to ruin us further than make us better. This is what I and other pro-keeping Ole posters have been saying. The new manager has to be fecking amazing otherwise what's the point? I don't see a new manager available that IS fecking amazing right now. We need the next SAF basically and I don't see that happening any time soon. That's why Poch isn't THE guy, that's why Allegri isn't, that's why it's really hard to contemplate getting rid of someone who quite clearly gets the club, regardless of his abilities because THE guy needs to be all the great stuff tactically and transfer wise plus get the club and the way we operate and the way we play, something that hasn't been there since SAF left.
And breathe...
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Two swallows do not make a summer. Two above average performances against good teams is not enough to give him time.
His record since taking over has earnt him the square root of feck all because we are worse off and his win rate is abysmal. Our squad is weaker and despite all his talk of understanding the club he sets us up to be either incredibly defensive or completely devoid of ideas in the final third.
Finally. I was beginning to think I was going mad!
This is the problem with our fans (on here at least). The fantasy that the grass will magically grow greener just because of baseless presumptions.
I'm not Ole in or Ole out. I think he's trying to do the right things but the performances aren't producing enough to give confidence he knows how to make it work. Which means we're drifting in a situation where a poor run of form might force the club's hand if it starts to seem like it's not going to get better.
There is no point making a change for the sake of it though, and there is no one available who guarantees a quick or long term fix, so at this point any change would be for the sake of it.
I also feel like even though Ole deserves to be under some scrutiny at this point, a chunk of it is more down to some pretend football professors having a hard on for Pochettino after the media started pitting him against Jose, and so criticising anything that might steer away from the idea of Pochettino being our manager. Which means if he did become our manager we could be losing 5-0 to West Ham and these same people would be blaming everyone but Pochettino.
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It doesn't matter what you think. You are not making "sack/don't sack" decisions at United. I am just telling you how he bought extra time and gained some more trust.
Yes
Yes, it was obvious. Why the club did it, other than they wanted to save money....?
Loaning that useless, money-sacking sloth Sanchez was the best thing we did. Lukaku and Smalling had to go as well, since they didn't fit in the success of our team. Letting them go was smart, getting Maguire instead of Smalling was also smart, not backfilling Lukaku was the feck-up.
Also, if you want to talk about bad decisions, talk about losing Herrera and keeping the jest named Pereira. That was a disaster, but according to all accounts, Ole had nothing to do with it, it was all on Woodward dragging his rotten feet with the new contract.
Also, if you want to talk about bad decisions, talk about losing Herrera and keeping the jest named Pereira. That was a disaster, but according to all accounts, Ole had nothing to do with it, it was all on Woodward dragging his rotten feet with the new contract.
Apparently we need to readjust our expectations that we shouldn't be above Sheffield United.
Lunacy.
Lunacy.
I'm losing my mind reading that excuse OVER AND OVER again. "Can't sack Ole, because maybe the successor will also be bad." I mean it's lunacy.
Some of our fans deserve the current state we're in.
Come on mate. You don’t really believe that? Brendan Rodgers had an instant impact with leceister after we bought one of their best players and with a squad that is not as talented as ours.
We don’t need Pep or Klopp for instance impact(which is a pointless metric). We just need a manager with the right footballing philosophy, financial and sport science support, emotional intelligence, and passion for success. Pochettino definitely fits those criteria and United also fits it as well(well..moreso than Spurs). His emotion when he got spurs to the final showed how much passion he has for this game.
I’m real tired of people like the one with the above comment, wasting their own energy and everyone else’s energy by trashing Ole. If all the energy went into supporting the manager, trusting the players and trusting the process, we would be in a better position by now. All of you on here trashing things has a lousy effect on the team and fans. Spewing toxic bs tears down the club. These fans talk like they are saying all that for the greater good but guess what? It has an awfully negative effect.
The club has made the decision to stand by this manager. If you don’t like it, leave. Find another club to gloryhunt.
Nah.
Whatever arguments we put out, we will be bashed for having blind faith, accepting mediocrity and over appreciating club legends..
Whatever man, whatever. Ole out brigade is the only brigade that knows the truth, the right way.
Here's the truth, they don't know jack shyte either.
So let's just go this stupid period of bashing each other.
Whatever arguments we put out, we will be bashed for having blind faith, accepting mediocrity and over appreciating club legends..
Whatever man, whatever. Ole out brigade is the only brigade that knows the truth, the right way.
Here's the truth, they don't know jack shyte either.
So let's just go this stupid period of bashing each other.
Except it’s not ”the same thing” is it? Each time it’s a new manager so it’s nothing like ”the same thing”.
Liverpool are in fact proof right in front of your very eyes that sacking underperforming managers left, right and centre until you come upon the right one is nothing like ”insanity”.
Absolutely ridiculous phrase to use in this case, it is however more apt for Ole’s tactics against a low block side, pure fexking insanity.
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How would we be in a better position? In fact, didn’t our form turn quickly to shit when all of us jumped about the positive ”Ole’s at the wheel” bandwagon?
This is ridiculous. One poster wanted to buy an almost new team. Why can't we include a manager too in that?.
Then the only two managers who are better than Ole is supposed to be Klopp and Pep. Since they are not going to come we better keep Ole?
This is the height of idiocy. There are plenty of managers who are much better than him.
I can honestly say that if Big Sam was the manager we would not have lost against the smaller teams and we would be very hard to beat. And we will have more points at this stage and we probably would lose to City. Sam has beaten Jose before too so we may have won the Spurs game.
Then the only two managers who are better than Ole is supposed to be Klopp and Pep. Since they are not going to come we better keep Ole?
This is the height of idiocy. There are plenty of managers who are much better than him.
I can honestly say that if Big Sam was the manager we would not have lost against the smaller teams and we would be very hard to beat. And we will have more points at this stage and we probably would lose to City. Sam has beaten Jose before too so we may have won the Spurs game.
> Criticizing lazy criticisms from "Ole out" brigade
> Proceeds to lazily criticize them without any sensible argument whatsoever, just pure emotion
> Proceeds to lazily criticize them without any sensible argument whatsoever, just pure emotion
Is this any different to the Ole out thread
It makes sense when you think of continuity. Usually, without a manager to stop him, Woodward renews every deadwood's contract. If there was a manager who could outlast the deadwood and slowly replace them then we could potentially have more quality players.
However, sacking managers yearly for underperforming with said deadwood, and giving them chance after chance under new managers, would prevent us from getting rid; we've seen it happen with our two eyes, and complained about it.
So there is potentially an argument for keeping a stable manager until we find "the one", or until we sort ourselves out structurally so there is accountability outside of the manager.
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Just when you thought you've heard all the excuses for Ole, there comes another Christmas special: "Ole is doing things for the club, and not for himself. Ergo, he deserves more time".
I swear some of you lot seem to know this bloke personally.
I swear some of you lot seem to know this bloke personally.
What is it then? With little to no previous experience at this level to his name, other than his initial run of form as caretaker manager, what exactly are United basing their unwavering trust for Ole being the man for the job on?
What? You're only willing to accept Klopp or Guardiola to succeed Ole? So we are doomed to be stuck with Ole? And that's the reason why you're against sacking Ole? Oh my, doomed indeed we are.
Why would it uproot a years work? What fecking work?
What is this deranged notion that what Ole has done/is doing is something that only he has the master plans for, and no one else is capable of replicating it or, as with almost any manager you might care to mention, taking over and doing a much better job of it
You think Ole has some kind of monopoly on signing the world's most expensive right back, and centre back, and then proceeding to set up a defence that ships goals for fun? Or having forwards that don't know when to make runs or find space? Or having no plan at all for breaking down low blocks? Maybe he genuinely does have a monopoly on all of that, in which case replacing him is an even safer bet.
EXACTLY. It's like Ole is doing some sort of programming on a supercomputer and no other coaches are capable of the codes. The pinnacle of delusion.
You heard it here first folks, we must accept all decisions made by Woodward and the club.
It's not Maguire vs Smalling. It's Jones vs Smalling.
All you're arguing for is that you believe Ole is good at transfers, not coaching.
Nobody is saying we're guaranteed to fix everything by sacking Ole. What people are saying is that sacking Ole gives the club another chance to fix things. That's what all clubs do. If you know Ole is not proving enough to stay on the job, and is therefore more likely to not fix things, why would you not want to let someone else have a go at it?
We could apply our transfer strategy to it. If we're not guaranteed to upgrade on Lukaku, why on earth should we buy another player to replace him? The answer is simple, because you're increasing your chances at finding the solution by trying out different people to get the job done. This is the logic Ole used on Lukaku. This is the logic everyone uses for transfers, sacking/hiring managers, sacking/hiring dofs, etc...
If the entire argument that Ole is doing a good job is based on transfers, why not advocate for him to be DOF (which I disagree with too btw)? I've noticed none of the arguments involve his coaching.
If this season is a write off, why even give Matic a minute of game time? He's clearly not going to contribute past this season, so might as well let Garner get some experience. If this season is a write off, why even let Jones get playing time ahead of Tuanzebe whenever it has happened, however rare it was?
Been reading this thread and the Ole In Brigade have not been convincing at all. They come across as delusional.
Klopp coached Dortmund and is using the tactics he used with Dortmund that won them the league to win Liverpool the league. Same thing with Pep and City. With Ole we are using a manager whose only experience with tactics is Youth team, Cardiff and Molde. We tell him to implement these tactics on one of the biggest clubs in the world. Do you see what's wrong here? He is not good enough and he never will be.
Yes he has the right ideas and the vision and has made decent signings so far but are you expecting us to win the league with Molde tactics.
Klopp coached Dortmund and is using the tactics he used with Dortmund that won them the league to win Liverpool the league. Same thing with Pep and City. With Ole we are using a manager whose only experience with tactics is Youth team, Cardiff and Molde. We tell him to implement these tactics on one of the biggest clubs in the world. Do you see what's wrong here? He is not good enough and he never will be.
Yes he has the right ideas and the vision and has made decent signings so far but are you expecting us to win the league with Molde tactics.
A- It is nostalgia. How can you justify defending a manager with non existent CV, with no plan B, who had his arse spanked whenever he moved in managing non amateur football and who started the season with a smile on his face despite a non existent midfield, RW and forward line?
B- This squad isn't strong but its not as shit as many portray it to be. Mou (you know the useless guy), took it to 2nd place and won some trophies with it. Same with LVG. Managers need to operate with what they got. Blowing 120m on 2 decent but not WC defenders when you've got no midfield and forward line is bloody stupid, especially since both provide as much of an attacking threat then DDG.
C- Its important because this guy has no legacy to stand upon. He literally blew it at his first chance of real management.There's nothing to justify why he's at United apart from nepotism
D- Jose Mourinho needed to go and he's got his share of fault in it. However as said he won trophies with this side. Some of the players Ole got rid off are doing extremely well as well. Lukaku is on fire and Smalling is swiftly becoming one of the top 3 CBs in the Serie A. Ole shares part of the guilt of weakening the side. Meanwhile we handled the likes of Jones, Mata and JLingz long term contracts. How silly is that?
E- True but that mediocrity also affect management. Just tell me what the likes of Ole, Carrick, Dempsey and Mckenna had done to deserve to be at United. That's also mediocrity
F- Of course there is, he's got no plan B. Our team is only effective against teams who play attacking football. If they play defensive football then Ole is useless
As far as a rebuild is concerned I'm totally with what we are doing at the moment and I plan on being patient.
The time i will become concerned is when the team clearly arent playing for him any more, and if the performances in the bigger matches drop of the way it did when Moyes and Jose got some d##king at the end. I'd be worried there.
Always said we need another 2 windows at least. The players we have at the moment is barely scraping together a solid first 11, and are clearly more suited to playing against teams who come to attack us.
The breaking down teams who sit back and defend in numbers has been a common theme going back to Jose managing us, so I'm putting most of the blame on the lack of quality players with that regard, as well as the lack of over lapping full backs. Obvs a mix of coaching and players but I'm confident we will bring in more quality that will help in the final 3rd, players who can pick a pass mid or short.
The time i will become concerned is when the team clearly arent playing for him any more, and if the performances in the bigger matches drop of the way it did when Moyes and Jose got some d##king at the end. I'd be worried there.
Always said we need another 2 windows at least. The players we have at the moment is barely scraping together a solid first 11, and are clearly more suited to playing against teams who come to attack us.
The breaking down teams who sit back and defend in numbers has been a common theme going back to Jose managing us, so I'm putting most of the blame on the lack of quality players with that regard, as well as the lack of over lapping full backs. Obvs a mix of coaching and players but I'm confident we will bring in more quality that will help in the final 3rd, players who can pick a pass mid or short.
Previous managers, all of whom I liked and respected btw, maybe did not quite take th same approach. Understan
Just to re-iterate and clarify something that has (inevitably) been lost as this thread has grown much quicker than I expected!
The point of my OP wasn’t to say that Ole can’t be criticised and it certainly wasn’t to defend his tenure at Man Utd either.
The point of the OP (as I actually say) was that I get sick of hearing the same lines - not going to repeat them, check the OP
By all means, criticise Ole’s tactics, criticise his game management, criticise the signings that ultimately he will have sanctioned at some level, criticise his conduct in interviews/press conferences, criticise his relationship with the players.
What I was highlighting in the OP, and I don’t know if this is the same for other posters, is that my Twitter feed is full of angry, angry people throwing every insult under the sun at Ole, usually trotting out the same lines about how he is a “puppet”, a “failed Cardiff manager” who is only in the job because he is a smiling patsy.
What I very rarely see from these people is any suggestion of what Ole SHOULD have done differently
There was near unanimous agreement that we needed a clear out. Ole has done more in that respect that any of our previous managers. Sure, I would have liked more players to leave and sure, some of the players who have left are better than what remains - but there’s only so much you can do in one window.
I also very rarely actually see much criticism of Ole’s selection or formations. We all seem to broadly agree here, maybe there are a few tweaks some would make but in the main, I think it’s fair to say most fans would broadly have picked very similar line-ups to Ole
As expected, you also always get the posters who don’t really read the OP but comment anyway. If I had a slice of turkey for every poster who put “wot so results not important mental Ole sycophant idiot” I’d be 28 stone this morning. Of course results are important but - and here’s a revelation for some of you I’m sure...despite what the media say in order to hype and sell their bloated product, the importance of any given result or any given season in the context of the overall well-being and success of a club long-term is small to insignificant. So what if we have to step backwards to go forwards? We’ve been crap for 6 years anyway! If somebody had told a Liverpool fan in 2013 they wouldn’t win a title until 2020 but at that point they would be English, European and World champions, they would have bitten your hand off, as I’m sure we all would now faced with a similar scenario. So, point being, we need to stop reacting to every results, every little bad run, every little good run.
Finally, the coaching point. Notice, I’m deliberately using the word “coaching” as I do in the OP. I keep hearing fans talk about “coaching” - which I take to mean what we do on the training pitch. When I say there’s no evidence that Ole is a poor coach, I mean that there is no strong evidence suggesting that our mediocre results are down to what’s happening (or not) on the training pitch. My argument is two-fold. One, we were equally as slow and tumescent under Jose and LvG, widely regarded as fantastic “coaches”. Two, if Ole and his team are so bad at coaching, is it then sheer luck that Ole has set teams up brilliantly to counter Liverpool, City, Chelsea (twice) and Leicester this season? Come on let’s be fair, you can’t have it both ways...if Ole is responsible for the bad games then surely he is equally responsible for the good ones. Yes counter attacking is easier than playing on the front-foot, but we still remain one of very few teams to take any points off Liverpool in a calendar year and very few win away at City.
So it’s only right that we scrutinise Ole like we would any manager, but going back to the point of the OP, let’s have some better arguments, not just the same cliches that I see plastered all over my Twitter and then repeated verbatim here. Make some suggestions, put your neck on the line and say what you would do differently.
Do I like our results this season? No. Did I expect them? Yes. Is it Ole’s fault? I genuinely don’t know. What I do know is that I like the DECISIONS Ole is making, even if I don’t always like what’s happening on the pitch. Good decisions over a long period of time is what will get us out of this mess. Bad decisions over a long period of time is what got us into it.
Just to re-iterate and clarify something that has (inevitably) been lost as this thread has grown much quicker than I expected!
The point of my OP wasn’t to say that Ole can’t be criticised and it certainly wasn’t to defend his tenure at Man Utd either.
The point of the OP (as I actually say) was that I get sick of hearing the same lines - not going to repeat them, check the OP
By all means, criticise Ole’s tactics, criticise his game management, criticise the signings that ultimately he will have sanctioned at some level, criticise his conduct in interviews/press conferences, criticise his relationship with the players.
What I was highlighting in the OP, and I don’t know if this is the same for other posters, is that my Twitter feed is full of angry, angry people throwing every insult under the sun at Ole, usually trotting out the same lines about how he is a “puppet”, a “failed Cardiff manager” who is only in the job because he is a smiling patsy.
What I very rarely see from these people is any suggestion of what Ole SHOULD have done differently
There was near unanimous agreement that we needed a clear out. Ole has done more in that respect that any of our previous managers. Sure, I would have liked more players to leave and sure, some of the players who have left are better than what remains - but there’s only so much you can do in one window.
I also very rarely actually see much criticism of Ole’s selection or formations. We all seem to broadly agree here, maybe there are a few tweaks some would make but in the main, I think it’s fair to say most fans would broadly have picked very similar line-ups to Ole
As expected, you also always get the posters who don’t really read the OP but comment anyway. If I had a slice of turkey for every poster who put “wot so results not important mental Ole sycophant idiot” I’d be 28 stone this morning. Of course results are important but - and here’s a revelation for some of you I’m sure...despite what the media say in order to hype and sell their bloated product, the importance of any given result or any given season in the context of the overall well-being and success of a club long-term is small to insignificant. So what if we have to step backwards to go forwards? We’ve been crap for 6 years anyway! If somebody had told a Liverpool fan in 2013 they wouldn’t win a title until 2020 but at that point they would be English, European and World champions, they would have bitten your hand off, as I’m sure we all would now faced with a similar scenario. So, point being, we need to stop reacting to every results, every little bad run, every little good run.
Finally, the coaching point. Notice, I’m deliberately using the word “coaching” as I do in the OP. I keep hearing fans talk about “coaching” - which I take to mean what we do on the training pitch. When I say there’s no evidence that Ole is a poor coach, I mean that there is no strong evidence suggesting that our mediocre results are down to what’s happening (or not) on the training pitch. My argument is two-fold. One, we were equally as slow and tumescent under Jose and LvG, widely regarded as fantastic “coaches”. Two, if Ole and his team are so bad at coaching, is it then sheer luck that Ole has set teams up brilliantly to counter Liverpool, City, Chelsea (twice) and Leicester this season? Come on let’s be fair, you can’t have it both ways...if Ole is responsible for the bad games then surely he is equally responsible for the good ones. Yes counter attacking is easier than playing on the front-foot, but we still remain one of very few teams to take any points off Liverpool in a calendar year and very few win away at City.
So it’s only right that we scrutinise Ole like we would any manager, but going back to the point of the OP, let’s have some better arguments, not just the same cliches that I see plastered all over my Twitter and then repeated verbatim here. Make some suggestions, put your neck on the line and say what you would do differently.
Do I like our results this season? No. Did I expect them? Yes. Is it Ole’s fault? I genuinely don’t know. What I do know is that I like the DECISIONS Ole is making, even if I don’t always like what’s happening on the pitch. Good decisions over a long period of time is what will get us out of this mess. Bad decisions over a long period of time is what got us into it.
It's ridiculous to compare LvG and Ole, I supported LvG, he had the right idea but age-wise he wasn't perfect as he himself said that he took no part in coaching and delegated those tasks. Ole is not like LvG at all, Ole isn't building anything, he is just passing time and is relying completely on individual talent of players. No amount of time will be enough for Ole IMO, if you give him January and next summer, he'd buy 3-5 good players and hope something happens with better players. We need a proactive coach who makes us play a particular way(be it park the bus or possession), we need to fix long term issues like pathetic passing and movement, pressing etc.