Did you say SAF had taken us back if we didn't win the league?
I'd much rather be witnessing his version of taking the team backwards than the version Ole is showing us.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
Did you say SAF had taken us back if we didn't win the league?
I'd much rather be witnessing his version of taking the team backwards than the version Ole is showing us.
Actually Lampard spent about £100m and had a transfer ban. So we should hire Lampard or WIlder right?
The shortsightedness of people like you is the problem. There is no quick fix to a problem.
You brought that timeline to suit your argument and I changed it to suit mine.
So back to your original argument, because Wilder and Lampard have done well, will they attract better players than Manutd? isnt that what you are trying to say?
120m is far more than enough to get top 4 considering his opponents are Chelsea who had spent absolutely nothing and lost their best player, and Leicester whom he bought their best defender.
So
No, and I did not say that.
Well, if that is the case, I can send you links to football when Fergie was in charge and you can go watch that... because success is worked for you dont get it handed to you.
I agree with the first part, but not with the 2nd part.
The MUFC board have proven time and time again that we are reactive company, who are not pro-active. In other words, we don't see problems coming and solve those problems before they become big.
Only when a problem is sitting over their heads will the board acknowledge that the problem actually exists. I've given some examples below (but anybody who knows MUFC knows there are plenty of examples).
Put simply, there is no grand/master plan. We put Ole in charge, not because it was preordained or planned, but because he had a good 3 months and the board "reacted" by appointing him on a full time basis.
When things go tits up (which they will), Ole will be fired and a new manager brought in, who will want new players. Just as before.
Examples of reactionary, rather than pro-active decisions:
1, we knew one day SAF would retire. Did we have a succession plan? Nope. We just hired the guy that SAF thought could do the job and hired him.
2, we allowed GIll to leave at the same time as SAF. There was no "handover". He left, Woodward filled the gap and that was that. We had a man who was grossly unqualified for the role and he made blunder after blunder. The best was buying Fellaini for a higher price than his release clause.
3, When Moyes was failing, he was fired, as soon as it was mathematically impossible for him to make top 4. Note: we reacted. This was not planned in advance.
4, After Moyes, we started talking to other managers and LVG was brought in. We wanted a man with experience, so we "reacted" and got this. There was no 6 month plan.
But, you will argue that that was then, this is now.
Okay, let me give you another example of a reactionary decision which took place about 2 weeks ago.
Our midfield was decimated and our No.10 situation was becoming untenable. Only the Ole Inners would be dumb enough to argue that everything was fine.
Woodward "reacted" and bought Bruno. He should've got him in the Summer, but had that been the case, that would've been planned. Instead, he reacted when things got desperate and his hand was forced 2 weeks ago.
Now, this would be a plan to take us back to the top:
Hire a DOF. This can be done within a few weeks. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take years.
Tell him to assess everything footballing related and do whatever is needed to make changes. THis includes our manager, coaches, players, scouts, medical staff, physios, sports doctors, etc. Tell him that in 3 yrs we need to be competing for the title and it is his job to make this happen. Tell him that funds will be available and how much - not when the transfer window opens, but at least 6 months in advance.
The rest of the plan is too long to explain but you get my point.
I want you to notice that everything in the spoiler tag is planned in advance. No hirings/firings/purchases/sales in a reactionary way.
Hire a DOF. This can be done within a few weeks. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take years.
Tell him to assess everything footballing related and do whatever is needed to make changes. THis includes our manager, coaches, players, scouts, medical staff, physios, sports doctors, etc. Tell him that in 3 yrs we need to be competing for the title and it is his job to make this happen. Tell him that funds will be available and how much - not when the transfer window opens, but at least 6 months in advance.
The rest of the plan is too long to explain but you get my point.
I want you to notice that everything in the spoiler tag is planned in advance. No hirings/firings/purchases/sales in a reactionary way.
No I was just curious why you left them out when referring to spending, you picked out two big spenders. As you don’t like agendas I assumed you wouldn’t leave things out of it didn’t support your argument.
I haven’t changed anything your just picking and choosing to try and seem like you have a point. All I said Ole was biggest spending manager this season and we’re doing worse. You started throwing in Pep and Klopp and their total spends, must have forgotten others who spent less as I said.
It’s not about a quick fix or taking time it’s about the right fix. And you can’t just pretend it’s an agenda because you don’t like something.
What are you blabbering about?
SAF earned everything, he wasn't handed anything nor kept in a position due to nepotism.
Perhaps an Ole inner can explain this one away.
Also, I'd like to know which club in the EPL would swap their manager with ours. That outta make it clear how bad a manager Ole is.
Personally, I think if he gets fired at MUFC, he may never manage again....even in Norway, unless he gets a chance to manager a relegation battlers (like Moyes has been doing since he left MUFC).
I never expected 4th place. Quite a large proportion predicted a lower place finish.
It’s called a realistic outlook. Not lowering of standards, just a realisation of where we are as a club and what is required for us to get back.
The Swap, sell, buy, repeat policy of managers and players is more detrimental right now than if we had a feckin Monkey managing the team.
Money is drying up lads, feck league position. We need a balanced side with quality, Ole buys pretty well, I’m more concerned with that than anything else.
I want fourth spot solely to improve our recruitment in the summer.
Ofcourse there will be managers who spend less and do well, we have seen it in the past, Leicester for example too.
But there are also teams who spend alot and get nowhere, like Manutd, Everton, West Ham, Aston Villa.
Does this mean every team that doesn't spend money and does well have the best managers ?
For me as far as Ole goes it is top 4 or out.
So...
Let us add some logic here. Are we better than Liverpool? ... No. City? ... No.
So that's us in 3rd place at the very best for an optimist. You seem to think that 2nd place trophy should be ours!
But that's not the end of the story. Chelsea and Spurs are arguably around our level, both of whom we still have a chance of finishing above. Leicester are a bit of an anomaly for me. All of this points to a finish between 3rd and 6th for me depending on a given season, injuries etc.
We are 8th in the league fam. Enough with this nonsense.
How do explain that anomaly? Because to me there's one glaring difference between us and Leicester.
Did Moyes deserve more time then? After all, Ole's been here longer.
I just looked at the table. If we lose to Chelsea, then we will be below Everton in the table; Everton the team who was in the relegation places a few months back. We can go on and on about how manager x/y/z wouldn't be able to do better than Ole with this squad, but then we look at Everton, a team with a squad that few would argue is stronger than ours, and we can see how actually having a manager with a clue can make a big difference.
Why does currently being 8th conflict with the idea that we are developing for the long term?
Hold on your preaching patience and saying I’m short sighted but it’s 4th or sack Ole. That’s not very patient.
How the teams are performing is a factor in assessing how good the manager is.
Where is the evidence? We have gone backwards.
Because we're not ?
We're in far worse state now than his first 3 months. Squad, results and football are all worse than his initial days.
Spot on with the bolded part. But the major reason for that was..... because of the manager who was in place.
And I'd love for someone to lay out how exactly we are developing for the long term, beyond some abstract claims of buying the 'right' players. Dan James might be young, but I'm not sure I see anything there that gets me too excited about the future. I'm not writing him off, but I don't see a Leroy Sane type talent there. We paid 80 million for Maguire, and I can't for the life of me see that big of an upgrade over Smalling. Lindelof continues to look like a basket-case back there. AWB was certainly a step in the right direction, although he has much to work on. So what else is there? Rather than going with our promising young English goalkeeper (which would conform to the mantra Ed and Ole have been spouting,) we paid a ridiculous amount to renew DDG's contract. We've resigned the likes of Jones and Mata to new contracts, while abysmal players like Pereira and Lingard continue to play. Williams, Bruno, McTominay and Fred I can certainly see being part of this promising future that may or may not materialize. Likewise for Greenwood and Rashford. After that, I fail to see much to get excited about.
Apologise? Are you for real? They'll just look at our place on the table by the end of the season, no matter where we'll finish, and claim that anything above that would be a miracle that not even Klopp or Pep could accomplish.
The main issue here is that CL qualification won't be decided north of 70 points this season which is usually the norm in England. It's quite probable that any tally above 60 points will give any club that achieves it a decent chance at a top-four finish. What looks improbable at the moment is United taking more than 60 points from 38 games. So, when people claim they believed that top-four was unattainable at the start of the season and they use it now as an argument to absolve Solskjaer of any responsibility for our woes, i find their argument a bit skewed and disingenuous. It would have been difficult to get 75 points, we already had discussions about that. But claiming that it was always fine not to reach 60? Come on...
His last card is Bruno. Despite our horrendous form, he was given a very creative player to help his cause. But don't expect people to stop moving the goalposts, should the results continue to be as bad as they are now.
Because it's totally asinine to suggest that in order to "build for the future" or "develop for the long term" we have to become abysmal in the interim.
But that's even beside the point, because there is nothing to suggest we are doing anything at all that will pay off in the long term. How are we going to attract the players we need if we finish, say, 7-9th and have Ole as manager going forward?How are we going to keep hold of any players that do actually have the required quality to take us back to the level we should be?
It's so strange, that line of thought. We were a 6/10, but in order to become a 9/10, we have no choice but to regress to 3/10. There is no need to go backwards in order to go forwards.
Your first point has been addressed many times already in this thread, using various creative analogies. But, one more time - the correct response to the disappointing performance of two decorated managers like LVG and Mourinho is not to simply ignore managerial credentials and pick an ex-player from an obscure league. Instead you try again with another reputable manager (paying more attention as to whether he is still on the up or in decline) while reviewing the underlying structure of the club to assess why so much money has been spent to so little effect. Liverpool have got back to the top by appointing a highly-regarded, still hungry coach combined with highly astute player recruitment, not by deciding it was time for Ronnie Rosenthal or Sami Hyypia to have a go because they “get the club”.
And how did they finally get to this level? By getting rid of the underperforming managers when they deserved to be gotten rid of, until they finally found the right manager. They didn’t give up and say “Well, we’ve tried good managers and bad managers in the past, let’s just stick with the worst of the lot because we’ve tried other things.” It’s not a crime to hire the wrong managers, but it is a crime to waste too much time and resources on them.
Because to say that we’re developing for the long term implies that we’re working towards something, when in almost every metric, we are just getting worse, both subjectively and objectively.
Developing for the long term means we’re working towards something, which means that we will see signs of progress along the way. You don’t go from where we are now to peak Barcelona over night. If you aren’t seeing signs of progress, chances are you aren’t actually developing towards anything.
Moyes got fired when he couldn't get champions league football with a team that just won the league comfortably.
In hindsight, with how bad things have got perhaps it would have been better if Moyes got another year. We'll never know.
Ole took over a disjointed, unhappy, failing squad that has been under performing for years, under the back drop of a club being poorly run by the owners and cheif exec.
I get why people look at states and say it's clearly not good. But nobody is able to suggest an available manager that could improve things at United, if Ole was replaced.
Yes, I am preaching patience from a clubs point of view now the manager. He still has the rest of the season to get top 4, it isn't like top 4 is out of reach.
This is Manutd, top 4 has to be minimum achievement regardles of the squad
He's here, he's got the job, there's not much else we can do bar back him, let's just see how we go with a settled 11 at least in place, that hasn't happened since the first few games if the season.
He's going to get until end of season that's definite, if we do not get into top 4 or progress in the Europa or FA cup,
Then I can see him getting the sack, and he himself should except it as well in not being good enough. Poch is i think waiting for the seat..
He's going to get until end of season that's definite, if we do not get into top 4 or progress in the Europa or FA cup,
Then I can see him getting the sack, and he himself should except it as well in not being good enough. Poch is i think waiting for the seat..
Nah most were pointing towards the squad and amount of youngsters to be relied upon.
What’s your thoughts on my point about prioritising recruitment over league position at this point?
Whilst the latter obviously affects recruitment to a certain degree I believe the money is being reigned in at the club and we need to build a balanced squad pretty quickly - especially if we do end up replacing Ole!
Next manager would need to hit the ground running and not have the major rebuild Ole is having to undertake, with all the shithousery that brings from fans when we don’t win the league after one summer window.
I correctly predicted 6th last season even after we finished 2nd. I said Leicester, Wolves and Everton would be threats to us this season, mainly based on the quality of the squad. I'm an idiot with no clue about football though.
As for the 'this squad finished 2nd' argument. Leicester won the league and finished 12th the season after. I assume you think they should have stayed top, winning the league season after season?
I think there’s a lot more level headed people in the debate than you’re giving credit for.
Lots, including myself agree with your assessment. I’d even go as far as a brainstorming last 13 games and FA Cup might suffice, just something tangible to prove he’s taking us somewhere.
If he can’t do that by the Summer, well no-one should (they will) complain that he wasn’t given a fair crack of the whip and that the club would be daft not to bring in someone more proven/qualified.
Er, what?
Maybe not improve things to the desired level, but if I pull some names out of a hat, Ancelotti or Sean Dyche would get more points with this United squad from now until the end of the season than Ole will. Just a hypothetical but it's so obvious you might as well call it a fact.
And if we're talking about available managers we all know there's at least one out there who is a giant upgrade on Ole in every fathomable sense.
This is what is most frustrating - the narrative that many fans have that 'no one could do better' as if we're playing with 11 random blokes from the pub and Ole's grafting to accomplish the impossible. We have top players across almost every position, even with injuries we're stacked with international players, we have depth and yet we're scrapping with Spurs who wrote off half the season, Everton who did the same, Wolves and Sheffield who have vastly inferior players individually and then our old nemesis Arsenal who are just as rubbish as us but without spending as much.
His CV is poor, results here atrocious, and clearly in over his head. He’s going to be sacked eventually, only question now is how much time he’s allowed to make things worse before he gets binned.
I will always back Ole for no other reason than I love him. Yes, it's like Geordies with Keegan and Scousers with Dalglish, I don't care though. Ole's been a favourite of mine since 1996 and nothing will change that, ever. Until the very end I will be hoping he succeeds. I don't understand people who call themselves United fans who want him to fail.
Yep. This.
The notion that OgS doesn’t have to coach this team up boggles my mind, we by no means have the best squad in the world & due to his inept team management he has found himself without some starters but we’re not simply losing games based on a lack of quality - it’s a lack of any coherent plan week in, week out.
This team could be utilised better, of that there can be no doubt. Periera starts games whilst Greenwood warms the bench ffs!
Are you comparing Leicester City to Manchester United in financial strength? United could have bought any decent player to improve the squad. He got rid of Fellaini and Lukaku too. Smalling too. Now if he thinks he can get Messi or Ronaldo then he is a bigger Don Quixote than I thought he is.
No one wants him to fail. He's simply a poor manager. If he's sacked by the end of the season, we will get a better manager in Poch and I'm fully ready to erase the period of him managing the club from my entire memory and only remembering him as a legend for us and I bet all other Ole out will do the same. Let's just move on, Ok?
At this point Ole has no excuses. He got all his major targets in and most players bar Rashford will be fully fit for the run in. We can say whatever we want about the squad quality, but it's a better squad than Sheff Utd, Everton among many others.
If he can't get a good run in either Cup and finishes outside the top 4, or at this rate outside the Europa League places, then we would mad to continue with him at the wheel.
Finishing 8th with no European football next year would be devastating. An excuse of "oh but Brandon William's played 20 games and Greenwood came off the bench in 30" doesn't wash with me and I am a huge supporter of the Youth Academy.
I hope beyond hope we get a good run going and it all ends up being for the best, but it is getting harder to see where the positives are going to come from right now.
If he can't get a good run in either Cup and finishes outside the top 4, or at this rate outside the Europa League places, then we would mad to continue with him at the wheel.
Finishing 8th with no European football next year would be devastating. An excuse of "oh but Brandon William's played 20 games and Greenwood came off the bench in 30" doesn't wash with me and I am a huge supporter of the Youth Academy.
I hope beyond hope we get a good run going and it all ends up being for the best, but it is getting harder to see where the positives are going to come from right now.
So you idolise OgS to a point that him harming the club in the process is secondary but you then questions others fanhood!?
Not one fan on this forum, “wants” OgS to fail - we would all prefer the man succeed; it’s the irrational blind faith despite evidence the man is out of his depth that is the issue here.
You can support the club, respect OgS the player & also see that he isn’t suited to managing a club of this size at this time.