@AFC NimbleThumb . Well, no one knows what transfer targets he lined up this summer and regarding Sancho i think that was mostly paper rumors. As i said, i dont know but i think its reasonable to assume he (Ole) wanted especially Lukaku replaced. Why we did not though could be a myriad of reasons. Right target not available? Glazers wanted to trim the wage bill before new additions were made? Ole thought going into the season with 4 attacking players would suffice?
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
So Ole was not the manager when we signed Maguire, Bruno, AWB? or the manager when Rashford renewed his contract?
How did Poch manage to sign Son, Moura etc..?
Well lets have a look who Lampard attracts in the summer because he is no more proven than Ole. Don't say their management / structure is up there cause they make mistakes like we do too.
Over a year in charge, bad squad management, no style implemented, tactically questionable, going backwards results wise. Aye yeah far too early to judge.
We are looking at a full season, where Klopp took over a team that finished 6th and then finished 8th. But I guess you can put that against me because Ole took over a team that finished 2nd.
Can you go have a look at the backward steps Inter took before Conte came in? the backward steps Liverpool took before Klopp came in?
People like you think success is instant is rubbish, you have to build to success.
Exactly, the thing is that everyone is looking at Liverpool, CIty and even Inter saying look how their manager has brought them where he has, but no one sees the pain they went through.
There clearly seems to be a different direction to one we took before, players who want to play for the club.
I dont see him being long term either but, you can see him trying to do something and has United at heart. He could easily have said I want this player this player but no he says if we can't get him we wait.
I'm sorry, are you now saying we should fire Solskjaer so the next manager will be successful? We already had plenty of pain before him so that requirement should be fulfilled by now.
Seriously, you haven't just moved the goalposts, you've relocated the entire fecking stadium to a different country.
Just judge him by what he says he wants to achieve and you'll realise he's fallen short of all of them.
Well if Chelsea have Champions League foot all that will help. I don’t know what you are trying to dispute, it’s just a fact the club will be less attractive to players then last summer.
An unproven manager who has had a bad season, less points, further from top, no champions league football again (maybe no Europa). Do you think those are selling points?.
LVG and Jose were not brought in for rebuilds, they were brought in for exactly what you wanted which is to win and that did not work out.
So the club decided lets take a step back and actually build something for the future rather than look for instant success.
Call it what you like, but this squad that has been mismanaged and lack of results deeded to be changed.
None of that changes the original point of this discussion: that the likes of Klopp and Guardiola (or indeed Conte at Inter) did not take their club backwards in terms of results before improving. They all improved immediately. That doesn't mean instant success, mind you - just instant improvement, various degrees of it.
I don;t get it you say poor manager at first, then you say CL is a requirement?
So how is it less desirable than last year? We didnt have Champions League football last year.
You do realise there is more than like 10 players available? Players like Grealish would join this club regardless of Cl next season because if you sell it correctly.
We’re about to do the age old RedCafe thing & go back then forth about something we can’t actually know.
What I can say is he made comments about being happy with the squad at the beginning of the season; the retorte will be, “what else is he meant to say” - so let’s park that one.
I’d then go on to say he was an idiot to sell a 20+ goal a season striker [last season was a mess for Lukaku he’s returned to form in a massive way this season] regardless but even more stupid for [apparently] sanctioning the sale without having a definite replacement lined up.
I don’t know that the Glazers wanted to trim the wage bill; I also can’t tell you if he was happy with ‘4 attackers’ - What I can say is he said he was but as has been discussed already he makes some questionable comments.
You mention the ‘right target’ line. We’re currently starting Andreas Periera at RW if the club are telling me that there is not a gettable & by some margin better player in the transfer market available then we might as well close as a football club - I’m no scout so before you ask I’m not here to reel off names but if I was employed to scout players and was unable to identify a RW better than Periera in 2 transfer windows I’d expect the sack.
Coaches don’t always get their targets; even SAF couldn’t & I no doubt he’d quite like Ronaldo, De Bruyne & van Dijk so I don’t think any fans are upset we’re not challenging Liverpool this season - we can argue over speculation but Id much rather discuss the situation we have where week on week a £200m+ defence concede goals & our current managers is generally winning 1 league game a month.
The defence that OgS is responsible for all the good in the transfer market & Woodward all the bad just doesn’t hold weight for me & many others.
It’s all a factor, you don’t think how this season has gone has any impact?. We’re going backwards it’s not a good quality. The club didn’t intend to go backwards, this season isn’t part of the laughable three year master plan to win the league under Ole and Woodward.
I’m not saying we can’t sign anyone but it’s just common sense that the worse things are going the less attractive an option the club is.
It is all a factor, but that is if you want to sign certain players. I think the club always knew that things could get worse before they get better, especially if you trim the squad down.
We are for the first time since Fergie left at the bare bones and can say certain players will be the core. Maguire, AWB, McT, Rashford.
The one we might miss out on is Sancho. Other than that who are we targetting that wants to come purely on CL football?
Honestly, I would rather sign a Grealish than Havertz. We just have to go about the recruitment the right way.
I think one of United's biggest issues since Sir Alex started his decline was that United had been lead by the manager's ideology rather then what we need to do to return to our best. We saw Sir Alex refusing to deal with super agents and going full English proven talent which saw us not getting the likes of Moura, Hazard and co while losing the likes of Pogba for free. Then Moyes came in and went for the ridiculous (Fabregas etc) only to have to settle with his tall man from Everton and some player Chelsea wanted out. LVG stepped in and brought a horde of players to the club most of whom were either his own ex players (Valdes, Bastian) or Dutch players he fancied (Blind, Depay etc). Then Mou came in and brought in players who were either his former players (Matic, Lukaku) or had his mate Mino as their agent (Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Pogba etc).Finally we've got Ole who brought us back to the EPL proven players ideology which saw us blow 130m on 2 decent but hardly WC players. Leicester must be laughing their way to the bank as there's no way Maguire is worth 80m.
United need to bring in people at board level who understand football very well and can challenge the manager if needs be. There also need to be a certain criteria on how players are signed or who should be given contract extensions. For example CBs who aren't good in air shouldn't be signed in the EPL. Same with injury prone players (ex Bailly), players of a certain age (Sanchez, Matic, Bastian, Valdes, Falcao etc), wingers with zero pace (ex Mata) or players who simply don't want to be with us. The manager might sulk for months but certain red lines should never been crossed.
I have no idea who we are targeting and neither do you. It’s just a fact that the worse the team is, worse than manager is etc etc the less attractive joining is. Some will be put off some won’t.
It’s very unlikely that getting worse would have even been considered or in any way part of the plan.
No, I do not know who we are targetting, it is all speculation.
I agree some will be put off us, but it is what it is.
We have missed out on big names before in the past too so It's not like it is Ole's fault.
Exactly, we need to sit down and figure out what we need, the best person for that is a DoF.
There has to been this transfer strategy to suit the manager, now we see it changing to suit the club.
The one thing we are lacking currently is a technical footballer.
And more likely to miss out on more with Ole in charge because he has no credibility as a manager and has done a bad job. His job is harder than last summer, doesn’t mean can’t sign anyone.
You’ve tried to compare him to Klopp and Pep but reality is you can’t. Outspending every manager and team performing worse can’t be sold as progress.
His job is harder this summer is your opinion. He might feel it will be easier cause he has got rid of the players he didnt want so he can concentrate on getting the ones he does want in.
Yes so lets compare spending over 1 season ? how much money did both managers get in their first few seasons?
Ole has spent over 200m, more than every other Premier League manager this season so he’s outspent them all. The team has got worse, still play rubbish football and Ole is still under qualified and hasn’t done anything to prove otherwise.
It’ll be a lot tougher if he’s sacked which is what happened to Moyes and LVG which is very real possibility. It will be harder to recruit players that’s just common sense. Do you think they don’t want to play in Europe or want to play for a team getting worse?. Sometimes you just have to face facts.
Seriously get a grip mate, he has spent £200m but including a player that has played 1 game, talk about agenda.
You acting as if there is only 10 players to sign, there are alot of players in the market.
Unfortunately its more complex then that. Having a DOF relieves pressure from the manager who can now focus on his job rather then on scouting and having to give the thumbs up or down to transfers. It also increases accountability. If all transfers fail to make an impact than that's the DOF's fault. However if the players are doing well but we keep losing games because of the same tactical errors then its evident that the fault lies elsewhere example the manager.
However, a DOF by himself isn't enough. First of all there's a reason why we haven't signed a DOF and that is that United are manager oriented. We have a system in place which was built around Sir Alex which is basically the following. The manager is the Leonardo/Michelangelo/Mozart of football, he knows what he's doing, he loves the clubs, he's sensitive and proud therefore don't put overheads on him else we risk pissing him off enough to retire. You see managers and DOFs often work hand in hand but there will be times when they will clash. The manager is the person who trains players and get emotional invested in them. Emotion goes against logic. For example a manager might want an ex player to come to the club, he might want to keep a long servant to the club happy on full salary even though it doesn't make economical sense to do so etc. However DOFs aren't infallible eithers. For example DOFs might see the big picture with total disregard about the present. Take Monchi at Roma as an example. The guy went for long term future signings (Under, Schick, Zaniolo, Pellegrini, Kluivert, Coric, Cristante etc) and bargains (ex Santon). He couldn't care less that he was stripping the manager from regular first team players like Salah, Rudiger and Nainggolan who were crucial for the first team in the process. Something similar happened this year at Juventus with Paratici. Sarri wanted Can out, Paratici thought it wasn't a good idea as Can is young, he was an important player in Allegri's system and he's versatile and he promised Can a chance for first team. Sarri of course froze Can out of the team and all dirty laundry was aired in public. We're talking here of problems caused by two world class DOFs. God knows what lesser DOFs would do
So you need people to balance things out when problems crops out. That means a CEO who understands football and people who are knowledgeable in football and who loves the club to aid them. These two together can go into the nitty gritty of issues and sort any possible friction between the two whom, ultimately, need to work together. There will be times when the manager is right while there are times when the DOF is right. I assure you that the Can's 'scandal' would have never happened if Beppe Marotta was still at Juventus.
If I were the Glazers I would acknowledge that Manchester United is far too big for one man to run alone. A CEO can't focus on football stuff like transfers signings, player's contracts and sorting friction between different areas of the club while concurrently balance the books and bringing in new sponsors to the club. Thus the club needs to be broken into two ie the financial side and the football side. Woodward can and should be CEO of the financial side. Meanwhile someone like VDS or Marotta should be hired as CEO of the football side. At that point, Id hire Phelan at board level and then bring in a top DOF (Campos?) and a top head of recruitment (Mitchell?). Once that is in place the rest will follow ie a top manager, top scouts, top fitness people etc.
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We don't need to get worse before we get better. This is just Woodwards way of lowering expectations, so he doesn't need to spend big money.
Fans: why are we not spending big, buying the best players in the World to take us back to the top?
Woodward: We are rebuilding for the future, over the long term. So, we don't need the biggest and best players.
Fans: okay. But why are we getting worse. I mean, we are currently having the worst season since EPL started. All negative records not broken by Moyes, LVG and Mourinho are being broken by Ole. Why is this?
Woodward: It's going to get worse, before it gets better. In 3 years, you will see.
Here's my solution.
Hire a better manager, give him funds and we will improve immediately. We don't need to wait 3 years or go to the relegation zone, to get better.
Conversely, hire a worse manager and as we saw with Moyes and Ole, we will get progressively worse within 6 months, we should be breaking negative records.
Don’t get your knickers in a twist, he’s spent what he’s spent, it’s not an agenda when it’s what’s actually happened. He spent more in summer and January windows again just what happened not an ‘agenda’.
I’ve never said that just that it’s not helpful to be worse, just common sense.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? He had a team that was 2nd in the PL and instead of improving the squad he culled it and we are now in a worse position than 2nd place. You improve the squad. You do not cull it and make it worse.
And why should he attempt 4th place when that squad itself was good enough for 2nd place. If he had improved the squad he may have got the 2nd place or even 4th place. For sure now he is not going to get 4th place. So he has bungled the whole thing.
I will unreservedly apologise to all the Ole in Fans if he gets the 4th place this season. Would you guys apologise if he doesn't get the 4th place?
We have tried your solution 2 times actually, the results improved short term but made us worse long term. This is the problem that most fans are not seeing.
In your opinion, which manager shall we hire then?
Ole in - 8th is overachieving with this squad
Ole out - He has squad that finished 2nd, should finish 2nd
As bad as each other, it's like people are in hibernation since Aug 2018.
4th is minimum that should be expected, or Europa league win which gives one more chance for CL next season. If manager fails to achieve that, they should go. No need to exaggerate on how good or bad squad is.
Ole out - He has squad that finished 2nd, should finish 2nd
As bad as each other, it's like people are in hibernation since Aug 2018.
4th is minimum that should be expected, or Europa league win which gives one more chance for CL next season. If manager fails to achieve that, they should go. No need to exaggerate on how good or bad squad is.
I sound just fine thankyou very much. The squad needed a complete gutting in my opinion and that is what is being done. The instant gratification brigade want it to be done now.
Why would I apologise if we get 5th? Our squad has improved in key areas, but we've also lost key players to lengthy injuries. Anyone would put us 4/5 in this league based on the squad.
A transition takes time, something that's lost on a lot of people.
Yes, so lets compare how much Pep and Klopp have spent during their time rather than a time frame that suits your argument?
Pep has spent £696m
Klopp has spend £400m
Ole has spent £200m
So yes it is me getting my knickers in the twist with my numbers.
Exactly, and they keep referencing Liverpool but they went 30 years without the league title, everyone forgets that.
The same people who say we need the best players etc will complain that we over pay for players.
There is no winning.
Bless you, it’s not like those managers have been there longer, won trophies or didn’t take their teams backwards. Almost like you want those numbers to mean something they don’t.
What about some of other managers in league, did you leave them off by accident. Must all have spent more than Ole I assume, not like others could spend less and be above us.
So now we are looking how long the managers have been here? Not how much they spent.
I am not the one who brought up numbers, you did. Pep has taken his team backwards.. 1st place to 22 points of the top..
What about Lampard, did you leave him out by mistake?. Or Wilder he must have spent loads surely?. Look forward to seeing those figures. There can’t be managers that have spent less than Ole and are above us in league or have improved because that would make your post irrelevant.
You’ve posted what they’ve spent since they joined, not this summer which is what I referred too. Far as I know Ole outspent everyone last two windows, if you have alternative figures to disprove this ‘agenda’ please share.
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At least that's better than claiming he's doing a job no else can judge unless you have certain qualifications.
Only an idiot or someone who has no clue about football would put us in 5th or below with the squad we won the the 2nd place. All the new manager has to do was get our midfield sorted out and good coaching and tactics and we would be in the CL spots. Only an imbecile like Ole would cull the squad and get no replacements. Yes there were people who needed to be sold but he kept most of them and sold the only one who could buy us a win sometimes. Ole is a populist manager who panders to some of the fans and has no clue about coaching a football club. I have seen us get relegated but the fact of the matter is that everyone knew that United would bounce back instantly and we did. Unless you have been a supporter of the club as long as I or some others have been you have no clue about instant gratification brigade.
It's an agenda if your using the £200m figure as a stick to beat him with. Ole's net spend is about £120m, and over 40% of that is on a player who signed a couple of weeks ago. There are plenty of things that you can justifiably criticise Ole for, but harping on about a £200m spend seems to imply you're just happy to blame him for anything, regardless of context.
Liverpool were perennial bottlers who were in the footballing wilderness for the best part of 30 years until they brought in a capable manager. It wasnt them preserving with Houllier in the early 2000s that got them to this stage.
Where did I refer to net spend, I only said Ole has spent 200m which he has.
It’s not agenda to say team has spent 200m and is worse, that is what has happened.
My original point was the team is worse, the manager was under qualified and hasn’t done a good job, team has gone backwards despite manager outspending everyone and we won’t be in Champions League next season and that isn‘t a selling point. Selling a three year plan last year was a stretch, selling a two year one after a year going backwards isn’t going to be easy.
None of that is a criticism of Ole just reality of what is happened.
Even if I was using it as criticism would that be an agenda or is it impressive to have spent that much and get worse?. Will that be one of positives at end of the season?.
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