Well said.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
I guess we’ll never know why we sold such a celebrated striker. The caf was in mourning that day.
I know. 'He only scores against crap teams like Burnley, Watford, Newcastle, etc'.
The Caf sure does know its football.
If the results have been good then we would all be here singing his praises. I honestly think he has the right ideas and truly wants set us on the right path, the problem is the execution of it.
I do wonder though how much of our problems are down to player quality/injuries and how much is down to (lack of) coaching and tactics. For the most part i think his team selections have been good and i honestly could not say what is wrong with the tactics, although i am not an expert. Subs are a bit slow at times, but mostly the correct ones. People lamenting about the likes of Lindgard coming on also have to remember we dont have much else to put on, which is a pretty sobering reminder of the state of our squad.
Regarding coaching there is one problem that i think everyone has noticed by now. We are fecking shit at both defending and attacking set pieces. Another thing i have noticed is how no one seems to take any responsibility on the ball and we have seemingly no one who tries to advance with the ball at their feet, and unless there is an obvious forward passing option, our attacks lose all momentum because we just shuffle it sideways
If(when) he get sacked i really hope he calls out Ed and the Glazers though
We can agree on that
Why? I would say that Ole out-brigade are clueless football fans, and to be frank, most football fans are clueless.
Tell me about Ole's track record as a manager and what others are missing that makes you so sure it's others that are clueless and not yourself.
Convince me this team needs major investment to beat Burnley (just one of many examples) who could barely keep the ball for more than 3 passes.
No one thinks Lukaku was the heir to Denis Law, Mark Hughes, Andy Cole, Ruud, Rooney, Robin etc.. But, if there was no obvious replacement, maybe we could have held onto him for one more year rather than run Rashford into the ground?
I did say that bit was far fetched to be fair, but still I doubt things are as all they seem with him.
Ole is deflecting nothing now, people know what's going on, and who's to blame.
I agree and have made these points myself this season. The bold bit is the most damning though. I like AWB defensively but I think it's crazy to expect him to be our attacking outlet down one side. If anything I would have thought Ole would have favoured a more attacking RB given that he talked about bringing exciting football back to OT when he took over. I just don't see his vision for this team at all, it feels completely thrown together.
You know his track record just as well as me.
Mediocre teams loses football matches. Just as Arsenal, Everton and us. And sometimes they win games against better sides, as us when we beat City. This is nothing new.
Its the rebuilding I trust Ole for, getting the right players in and letting the correct players leave. And at the same time letting us hungry players develop. So far its been alright.
Its finally a process and a plan behind what we do, if it takes 3 years for us to challenge then be it, but it sure as hell doesnt take one season to rebuild an entire club thats rotten.
If anybody buys into that then they would have been better served supporting Jose when he was here. At least he just made it obvious that Woodward was a problem. Like I said at the time, Jose was the only person involved with United that had the right standards befitting the club. The players were shirking responsibility and Woodward wouldn't accept his shortcomings and relinquish his control over football matters.
Lukaku needed to go. Our inability to conduct transfer business is the main problem, Fernandes being case in point.
After the quite incredible amount of stick Lukaku used to get on here even when he played well, it's an absolute cheek to even dare hint at criticising Ole or the club for letting him leave. Especially as Lukaku has made it quite clear he wanted to leave for a long time...according to himself he wanted to leave after his first ever game for us. According to this forum "We could never win the league with Lukaku as our no 9"
Herrera again was going to leave no matter what Ole did...it's dishonest to criticise him for that. No one with any sense would have called him deadwood and it's no secret he was on his way out.
Sanchez and Smalling are the strange ones. No problem with Sanchez leaving but we needed a replacement first. The fact we're paying him to play for someone else is just bizarre at this point. Smalling supposedly wanted games but I'm not sure why he was allowed to leave to get them considering we knew we were in 4 competitions and that without him Jones would play.
Of the ones you've listed, Mata isn't deadwood. Rojo we actually tried to sell, Matic and Lingard have only been used when there's been no other choice. Bailey has not played all season. The only one consistently playing through choice is Pereira and again, there actually isn't much choice as the alternatives to him are all included on your list! If we'd got rid of all these players we literally wouldn't be able to field a team at the moment.
Bissaka has been a very good signing and the "can't attack" stick people keep beating him with is getting very boring. He literally put two goals on a plate for our forwards just last night. He plays on the right wing on his own since whichever attacking player we put there just fecks off elsewhere. He's doing pretty well. James would be fine if we actually had a decent squad and could use him when it suits us and him, rather than all the time.
Maguire there is the odd one out as I think regardless of how we play, his defending is a liability. Instead of recognising this Ole has made him captain. It's a difficult situation since we paid so much for him but I do think Ole isn't doing himself any favours at this point. The guy I'm sure is trying his best, but he costs us goals nearly every week and is being rewarded for it. Managers are paid to recognise stuff like this.
Basically I think it's hit and miss and it's all just more piddling around the main issue which is that our squad just isn't very good and this is something that's been caused by some really poor squad management from Woodward. We had a situation last year where over a third of our squad were running their contracts down, and others outside of that wanted to leave, and on top of that a manager who clearly didn't want to be here for half a season. You can't replace half a squad in one summer even if you have someone more competent than Woodward handling things, so this season was always going to suffer from the consequences. I remember calling it over and over in the contracts thread last season. It was obvious, and now it is even more obvious because it has happened.
It's still going on as well. The Haaland thing baffles me beyond belief. He wanted to sign for us, and we wanted to sign him. We could have had one of the most sought after prospects in Europe, in a position we desperately need a player in...but we chose not to sign him because he wanted a buy out clause and this wouldn't give us control...what? What does this even mean? Worst case scenario is he would have signed and left for whatever his buyout clause was, which would still, obviously, be better than just not signing him. We have no striker. Who is making these decisions? If it is anything to do with Ole then obviously he takes the blame but it just stinks of Woodward yet again being an absolute idiot.
It's all well and good thinking we can do better than Ole but the problem is no manager can succeed here at the moment, and many manager with an ounce of sense wouldn't want to come until that changes.
Only if there is a replacement. And, if Ole was promised a replacement and was shafted, he should speak up rather than be a yes man. Otherwise we are pushing Marcus down the Owen/Fowler/Torres route.
As I keep saying, we have absolutely no proof that Ole is the right man, only strong evidence that he is not. Logically you would assume the Ole out guys to be correct. Do you disagree?
I agree this is a long process, I don't mind the idea. What I do mind is having a strong feeling that we are allowing the wrong guy to oversee such an important period. Based on what? It might just be the way I think or whatever, but it just seems pretty daft to me.
When Woodward sacked Jose and said we'll take the rest of the season to look at the structure behind the scenes and appoint a new manager, I actually thought the penny had finally dropped. Instead he gets over excited, appoints somebody with no track record and changes nothing major behind the scenes. Ole would never have been given the job if we stuck to that plan.
Not airing your grievances in public doesn’t make you a yes man to be fair though. I’d hope he’s putting pressure on behind the scenes, which is preferable to what Mourinho was doing.
So easy put and so true. Very good post.
This may be an unpopular opinion but I think Ole should stay. He's been very unlucky with injuries to be fair. I think his ideas to build this squad are the correct ones but he needs some time. There is no quick fix for this this mess.
Agree with the vast majority of what you say @noodlehair
Maguire, I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is not actually that bad a defender and I think a lot of his mistakes are being amplified 1) given the profile of MUFC 2) the mess we are in. I look at some of our great teams of the past and as an 11 and as a back four we defended as a unit. At the moment I am looking at Maguire, bang average midfield that is ever-changing in front of him. Toss of a coin on who the first choice LB is and to be fair Big Dave is having an under-par season. Giving the armband to him is probably quite an example from Ole to say this is the new breed, this is the kind of player I want in my team. Players can go one of two ways either they step up and take the challenge or they wilt. With Maguire, I think the problem is he can't play with Lindelof. Either one needs a good commanding CB next to them. I'm hoping Maguire turns out like Pallister, a bit of an inconsistent first 12-18 months. Let's be honest he has time ahead of him.
Not sure which reporter or pundit said it, but what this team is missing, (apart from fresh legs) is characters. We have been crying out for a captain for years but again red-tinted specs from me here, our last great team, VDS, Evra, Neville, Rio, Vidic. 5 Leaders in defence and captains in their own right that's even before you get to Rooney, Ronaldo, Giggs etc. Out of this current mob who is standing up for the rest of the team. Who is going to go toe to toe with a Troy Deeney, Mark Noble, Fernandiniho or Jordan Henderson, get stuck in, take a yellow but make no bones about it, Noble or Henderson won't be bullying any of the young players in this team ?? Nobody. Closest I have seen this year is McTominay and the kid is out injured.
Agree. The squad is too thin now for any manager to succeed. Transfer business must be much more flexible and more savvy if we are to see fast progress. And even then it will take some seasons to try to correct the mess we are currently in. We only have Rashford as our stand out performer and 5-6 half decent players; the rest are prospects and deadwood. The approach now is the right one I think with signing cheap young up and coming players blended with some (not too many) marquee signings. Even Woodward writes that this is the approach in the last quarterly report. I don't think we have the financial warchest to do it any other way at the moment, given that the Glazers don't want to give United any of their money. The recruitment under Woodward is so bad that he without a doubt should go! We should try to buy underrated players more often. Look at the Takumi Minamino signing for 7 mill pounds to Liverpool, exactly the type of signing we should be sniffing at ourselves.
I agree, Jose was about to call them out, as he was no way going to take all the blame for the mess we were in, the problem was he is just such a hard person to like when he behaves like that, and the club pulled the trigger before he really said anything too bad, and people were just glad to be shut of him, so bought into the utter crap that happened after then.
To me Ole been here is win win now, if he had made it work then great, but it been a 'club legend' struggling so badly has just focused the attention the right way this time, and long may it continue.
While I agree we need changes beyond the identity of the manager, I honestly don't believe that. We've had four managers since Fergie - two great ones, who we signed when they were after their peak, and two others who don''t belong to this level. While a top quality modern manager would not solve everything, I think he would make a huge difference and could help the healing process. I don't think the people running United have bad intentions. They are just clueless, and that leads to more errors and silly PR stuff in order to protect themselves. Having a man in charge of the team who knows what he's doing will make everything easier for everyone and set a way forward for everyone.
Mourinho does it at every club and it’s like the boy calls wolf story. Ole is Mr Nice Guy and it would definitely provoke a storm if he spoke out. This type of task should not be on the manager but, if ever Ole really wants to leap to the front of the United legends queue, resigning with no NDA and telling it like it is would really seal the deal.
I'm not convinced on Maguire at all. I was sceptical when we signed him but we did need a defender and he was the most obvious target. So obviously I want him to do well. I like him as a character, but he is SO slow on the pitch it is unreal...and I don't just mean in that he can't run very fast (which he can't), but he just seems to react and move very slowly. We concede goals because he is never quite in the right position. He is usually trying to get there. It's not like he disappears, but anyone with a bit of sharpness seems to find it so easy to get a yard or two on him. The second goal last night is a good example. It's a good goal, but Maguire should be between the player and the goal. Instead he's still in the process of getting there and a long way off. There was a point in the first half where they showed a replay of a Burnley attack, and in the 5 second clip Maguire wrongly claims offside twice, fouls someone by pulling them back after letting them run past him, then loses track of the ball and ends up out of position. Nothing came of it, but you just don't see top level defenders fumbling around like this.
It sounds like I'm butchering him but I want him to do well and wouldn't write a player off after one season, particularly not when they're under the pressur ehe is and we're struggling as a team, but I think, from Ole's point of view, making him captain is ridiculous. What should be happening at the moment is he's taken out of the firing line for a few games, partly to ease the pressure on him and partly to focus him into hopefully improving, but of course we can't do that because we sent Smalling off to Roma and threw all our chips in on Maguire straight away, before he'd even played a game for us.
Also with Lindelof, I remember someone saying last year that we have 3-4 centrebacks who are good centrebacks if they have someone commanding next to them...I think this is just a kind way of saying we have 3-4 centrebacks who aren't quite good enough.
I think Zlatan is a big miss even though he was only here a short while, because he was a character. A leader and a winner. The kind of player who's standard is to always be better than everyone else and who'd let others know if they weren't trying to reach the same standard or were impeding him from being able to. I think Rashford is the only player we have like that now...in that he clearly pushes himself...but he's 22. When someone is older/experienced, other players look up to them and they carry a presence. When you're 22 you don't command that respect no matter how much character you might have. If we had 5-6 22 year olds with Rashford's attitude and the ability to go some way to backing it up, it'd fine as it'd be infectious, but we don't. Unfortunately acquiring leaders/winners is quite difficult when you're in 5th place and your CEO couldn't buy a sandwich without negotiating so long that he starves to death and the sandwich goes out of date.
Maybe if we got a top class manager it would improve things to an extent, but there's two problems; 1) there aren't actually very many managers like that around, and the only two obvious ones are managing City and Liverpool. 2) Any manager of that calibre would surely not want to manage United UNLESS the issues that have bogged down Ole and our previous managers were sorted out first. It's public knowledge now. Maybe LVG didn't know what he was getting into (as he has basically admitted), and maybe Jose didn't either or was just desperate to manage United...but the idiocy at this club is so out in the open now it's going to put any manager who knows they can get a top job off. Why would they come here and struggle to finish 4th, get shot and sniped at and picked apart, while the club fecks them around, when they can just wait a bit and go to Chelsea, PSG, Real, Bayern, etc?
It is a bit like saying if Ole had better players he'd do better...it's an obvious point but a meaningless one unless the club is able to sign them....and if Ole isn't good enough, it wouldn't suddenly make him good enough. I feel I'm being harsh on Ole as well as although he definitely hasn't proven he is good enough, the nonsense at the club at the moment makes it genuinely impossible for him to prove he is. It's like Jose saying it was his greatest achievement to get United to 2nd. I'd put Ole down as an actual miracle worker if he got this club to 4th (and I don't think he will). In reality the only reason I can say "if" is due to the poor performance of other teams keeping United more in touch than they should be.
It is defending Woodward when some one trots out the claim 'managers made their choices'. Mourinho was famously sacked later in a season after Woodward decided to make no serious investment in the playing staff in the summer window.
Going as far as implying in the press that mourinho did not want "long term solutions" for the club in his transfer targets nor a director of football. Yet a year on, not only did he go on to sign mourinho's main target, he still hasn't appointed a DOF. Plus yet another summer of under investing in the squad took place. Under a different manager.
But people want us to believe that some how it's just the managers doing this to themselves......
Mourinho with his squad finished 2nd in the league. The next season, things went south cos Mourinho didnt get his desired CB (interestingly same Maguire we spent $10m+ more on the next summer - wonder whether we wouldnt have been better off buying the CB for Mourinho back then) and (typical Mourinho) decided to throw a tantrum and sabotage his own team.
That 'better squad' is what Ole inherited from Mourinho and it was made into what it is today by Ole. If the current squad is worse than what Ole inherited, the implication is that Ole spent $150m+ to make a squad worse - shouldn't that be enough reason to fire him?
The squad that Ole inherited was same squad that finished 2nd +Fred+Dalot with Daley Blind leaving. Since Ole has taken over we have lost Fellaini, Herrera, Valencia, Lukaku, Darmian and Ashley Young (with Sanchez and Smalling on Loan). Yet all he has brought in is AWB, Maguire and Daniel James. It was never a great squad but Ole bled the squad of whatever little quality was in it.
What Ole is doing is not a rebuild. You rebuild a team by making it better not by making it worse.
I just hated the players Jose sold.
I think Ole would have got the Lyon version of depay by rotating him with Martial centrally & Jose only sold him because he comes in to clubs with one set tactic.
Blind would be useful at CB for a counterattacking team and so much better than Lindelof & if he didn't sell him we could possibly have not had players like Lindelof & maguire - gone for Maguire & kept Smalling aswell.
Mkhitarayan wasn't the best but was more than decent in that first europa league winning season and is better than the CAM we have now & still would be just for experience or squad depth.
Everything is hingsight though & it's no point worrying about the past anymore.
I think Ole would have got the Lyon version of depay by rotating him with Martial centrally & Jose only sold him because he comes in to clubs with one set tactic.
Blind would be useful at CB for a counterattacking team and so much better than Lindelof & if he didn't sell him we could possibly have not had players like Lindelof & maguire - gone for Maguire & kept Smalling aswell.
Mkhitarayan wasn't the best but was more than decent in that first europa league winning season and is better than the CAM we have now & still would be just for experience or squad depth.
Everything is hingsight though & it's no point worrying about the past anymore.
From what you said, the only deadwood I can pick out that has been sold are Sanchez and Darmian. How is that clearing deadwood that Ole is praised for. The majority of deadwood are still in the squad.
Also I'm reiterating, Maguire is an overexpensive defender that doesn't suit the high line Ole plays. Wan Bissaka like you said is a very good defender and I really like him but as boring as it sounds, his attacking games still needs improvement. And like I said, Ole's style of play has the full backs push forward so why sign one that is not good enough in that aspect. James is a squad player at best so I'm not going to complain about that signing. So why did Ole sign two starters in AWB and Maguire who do not fit his ste of play
The Haaland deal was a blow but it's a bit damming for a club of our status to sign a player with a very cheap release clause, even Ole was against it you know. But the most damming thing for me is how we completely pulled out of looking for a striker that we still clearly needed afte the Haaland deal fell through. Until the Rashford injury there was no more news of signing a striker. Why???
Now this notion "No manager can succeed here", is based on Ed not backing his managers. But here's the thing. Ole last summer had a net spend of 70m. In hindsight it looks like enough money was not provided to Ole and the backing was not there. But what would you say about Liverpools board and Klopp. In Klopps first two seasons, he had a net spend of minus 4m and the second season of minus 24m. Imagine if it was Ole that had this net spend. Would you say Klopp was backed properly? Yet look at what he did with the little money provided to him. By his second full season with Liverpool they became champions league runner up. Klopp built a very good Liverpool team in his two full seasons with a fecking minus net spend. This will translate to very poor backing by our board if it was us. The same thing can be said about how Pochettino built his Tottenham side with very low net spend or backing. Look at Inter and Conte now.
How can you say no manager will be successful here because our board won't provide the budget to make it so. Yet the money provided to Ole last summer is more than what was spent by Klopp, Pochettino and Conte to build a very competitive side. We complain about Ole not being backed even after having already a higher budget to work with and spending more than these coaches that built strong sides.
It's clear as day our Board is incompetent, our structure is fecked. But all it takes to get this side competitive again is the right players and the right manager and not many will give a feck about the board anymore. We've had 4 different managers but I believe it was more on the managers abilities that led to this clubs failure because these managers including Ole spent way more than their peers and still couldn't make them as competitive. Can you imagine what Klopp would have done to this team with the money given to Mourinho or LVG. So Don't you think it's a case of Ed's undeniable inability to appoint the right manager which is why we've been failing rather than the right managers being in the wrong structure. Most of them were backed more than their peers for fecks sake and they still couldn't make our side competitive. Again, imagine what Klopp would have done with the money given to Mourinho.
Our managerial appointments have been shit. Moyes and Ole are managers for low tier teams. And LVG and Mourinho were past it. If you don't think so then what did LVG do after he was sacked, where is he now? How good has Mourinho been after he was sacked by us? Same thing even with Moyes. And in the end, Woodward is to blame for all this
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The lengths Ole supporters will go to comfort themselves. First, it was 'we are rebuilding', now it's 'we are still fixing the mess that was left behind'.
The deluded part is that they'd trust a manager like Ole to oversee this 'rebuilding' and 'fixing the mess'.
The deluded part is that they'd trust a manager like Ole to oversee this 'rebuilding' and 'fixing the mess'.
So you're gonna blame Ole for those players leaving ? I think it needs to be remembered that the Ole came in by Christmas of the previous year. By then the club was in shambles (worst state I'v ever seen the dressing room ever) and they royally screwed the contract situation with Herrera. Fellaini and Valencia basically retired and tbf they were coming to the end of their professional careers at least at this level.
Ole never hinted he wanted to sell Lukaku during or before the summer, he clearly wanted out since he'd have to compete with Rashy and Martial and no longer had the undroppable status he did during Mourinho's reign. That was unacceptable at the time, we all saw how he injured himself with his first touch. I agree that was also down to him not having any support but again that's down to recruitment in the previous years,.
And yes we only got 3 players in the summer but are you telling me, he a player who was part of a legendary team thought 3 people were enough for that squad, that broke down to bits at the end of the season ? Cmon dude that's laughable, the club is trying to take a stance that they aren't willing to pay premium anymore which essentially cost us missing most of our targets and delaying the Maguire deal until we had to pay over the odds and also why the Bruno deal is in limbo right now. But still I can see all 3 of them playing a big part in our success in the future, if it all goes right. Not a huge stride but definitely players who can be part of the rebuild.
A rebuild for us meant kicking out deadwood, which I believe most of the players you mentioned were, bringing in the youth and building on from there with the players we need for our style of play. This isn't a band-aid fix that will magically work with one transfer window and that too a window where we only got 3 players when we needed at least 6. And that is totally on the board and their screw ups over the past years.
Look, I don't know if Ole is the right man in the long term. I do know you can't judge him or any other manager with this squad, they'd all end up the same Poch, Pep, Mourinho whoever. What matters is the decisions we make now and that it follows a plan. Honestly, look at that squad and tell me that's not a mid-table team
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Don't know if you connected the dots yet but I think the two might be related right ?
Whoever ends up managing this club would indeed need to rebuild going forward, to fix the mess caused in the past half decade, particularly clearing out the deadwood and recruitment
Every time we lose a game you get the same posters posting “what do you think now, still backing Ole??!?” which completely misses the point of every post made by “pro-Ole” supporters.
I won’t criticise a single one of our managers until Woodward is gone or moves aside. The Utd job has been impossible for 6/7 years and it’s never been harder than right now when the squad is poorer than its ever been
I won’t criticise a single one of our managers until Woodward is gone or moves aside. The Utd job has been impossible for 6/7 years and it’s never been harder than right now when the squad is poorer than its ever been
Jeez. I agree so much with this post
AWB has been a brilliant signing. One of our best defenders and no question his attacking play has improved since August.
James is a damn revelation and anyone who doesn't see that has no sense or has had their judgment completely clouded by the last month when James was clearly overplayed.
Woodward is a goddamn idiot. For someone who claims to be a deal maker, he consistently has failed at dealmaking when it comes down to United's biggest assets - our players.
We should have fecking replaced them.
I don’t disagree
https://www.skysports.com/football/...inho-manchester-united-and-racism-in-football.
Maybe the wrong thread. For me, that shows why It was 100% right to get rid of Lukaku. A Player who constantly needs a kick up the arse or an arm around the shoulder. A player who was not prepared to stand up and be a leader and help those around them who needed leading.
Maybe the wrong thread. For me, that shows why It was 100% right to get rid of Lukaku. A Player who constantly needs a kick up the arse or an arm around the shoulder. A player who was not prepared to stand up and be a leader and help those around them who needed leading.
Its incredible that this stuff still gets bought up, and also highlights how regularly and efficiently this forum will reinvent history in order to justify a current argument. There isn't a single player that has been let go that hadn't at some point been the subject of enormous criticism on here. Now they are used as sticks to beat the manager with.
Some of these players should have been replaced quicker than they will end up being - that is beyond question. However they definitely all needed to go. In 2 or 3 years time few people will still care about what happened this season but we will certainly be looking at a better squad of footballers