The “Ole In” Brigade

[matherto]

You do understand Poch was sacked because of all the unrest in the dressing room, no? It's nothing to do with him not being good enough. Where do you think Poch is going to end up? The Norwegian league? I don't think so. Where do you think Ole is going to end up when he's eventually sacked? The Norwegian league? That's if he is very lucky. Is the rest of the footballing world missing something that a few can't see on the caf?

Who caused the unrest in the dressing room?

I'd be inclined to say benching Moura after him getting them to the CL final on his own against Ajax for a seriously unfit Kane wrecked the dressing room dynamic and the players realised after 4 seasons or whatever it had been that they were never gonna win anything with Poch's tactics and it finally broke.

Poch caused his own downfall, all whilst failing to win anything.

There's an obsession over this 'where would they be if they weren't United manager' thing. Nobody knows.

Fact is right now Poch doesn't have a job through his own fault and nobody is rushing to snap him up.

Meanwhile we've just won two games back to back that I was sure we would lose and we've had a really good December overall with a very inconsistent squad of players. Let's see if we reinforce in January.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Well, their record was 5-5-6 in the 16 games before Rodgers was sacked. Thats pretty shit if you ask me.

It is but he got them to 2nd as well playing some fantastic football along the way so swings and roundabouts.
I still stick by my opinion that giving managers time is better than a hiring and firing culture overall.

The person I was debating with earlier was saying Ole had to do this or that otherwise should be sacked but never actually laid out a plan for what we would do when we sack him. Obviously final responsibility lays with the manager as you can’t replace half a squad of players but if you think Ole should be replaced give your reasons and suggest a plan to move the club forward. It’s too simplistic to just say sack him if he doesn’t get top 4.

 

[Keefy18]

120m isn't peanuts in today's game. You can try to make a point without starting with a ridiculous claim.

120M got Jaoa Felix.

Longstaff at 50m.

Maguire is never an 80m CB.

This is what world of transfer these days.

It's getting more and more difficult to do sensible business within a budget.

 

[El Zoido]

I cannot see how sacking him now would do anything other than set us back and cause disruption. The team is definitely on an upward trajectory, we have a young squad that’s really now starting to come together. Not only this, but the entire club appears to be pulling in the same direction, and the players clearly like and trust the manager (something that hasn’t been the case since SAF). Personally I think we’re 2-3 players away from being really good, and I’d like to see Ole given the chance to continue to build the squad since his work so far has been rather good.

 

[JPRouve]

120M got Jaoa Felix.

Longstaff at 50m.

Maguire is never an 80m CB.

This is what world of transfer these days.

It's getting more and more difficult to do sensible business within a budget.

That's not how you determine what is peanuts and if you do then you have no clue. You are literally using record transfers and a fictitious one.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Klopp finished 8,4,4 & 2nd

Are you really gonna give him the 8th place when he joined a shambles mid-season? nar, that'd be like me doing the same for Ole, it's pointless.

The mark of a top manager was there with Klopp after his first summer, by xmas they were 2nd. Yes, they finished 4th which we'd all be delighted with, especially if we ended up on 76 points.

If Ole finishes his first 2 full seasons as 4th and 4th, of course he'll rightfully get time.

 

[Keefy18]

I dont appreciate the name calling mate. This has been several time you're going personal.

Apologies, but I've an allergic reaction to idiotic sentiments.

 

[Keefy18]

That's not how you determine what is peanuts and if you do then you have no clue. You are literally using record transfers and a fictitious one.

Actually it is.

120M is not sufficient to build a team worthy of title challenges, which is the sentiment Sky is trying to portray.

Aside from Leicester's freakish title win, there are very few examples to support your claim.

There is a direct correlation between the clubs who spend the most and winning titles across Europe.

To say otherwise is factually untrue.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Actually it is.

120M is not sufficient to build a team worthy of title challenges, which is the sentiment Sky is trying to portray.

Aside from Leicester's freakish title win, there are very few examples to support your claim.

There is a direct correlation between the clubs who spend the most and winning titles across Europe.

To say otherwise is factually untrue.

But our squad cost a shit load more than 120m.

I’m confused here. Does each new manager need 400m to build his squad?

As JP says, using record transfers to show it’s peanuts would be as silly as using Salah, Firminho & Fabinho to show it’s loads of money.

 

[Feed Me]

But we are fifth now ahead of Sheffield?

Your whole arguement just became obsolete.

they have a game in hand on us?

 

[JPRouve]

Actually it is.

120M is not sufficient to build a team worthy of title challenges, which is the sentiment Sky is trying to portray.

Aside from Leicester's freakish title win, there are very few examples to support your claim.

There is a direct correlation between the clubs who spend the most and winning titles across Europe.

To say otherwise is factually untrue.

120m not being sufficient to win a title has nothing to do with it being peanuts, you also don't start at zero anyway. You are here insulting people and makes the most idiotic point because you fail to make a simple evaluation, there isn't a single industry where 20% of revenue is peanuts and we are talking about 20% of one of the wealthiest clubs, we quickly go in the 30% for clubs that are around the 10th ranked richest clubs in the world and beyond the top 20 we are in prohibitive shares.

If you want to make the argument that you need time, luck, talent and money to build a title winning team then do that but don't make a ridiculous that is blatantly untrue, particularly when you decide to be rude about it.

Also the correlation is with wages not players registrations costs.

 

[Feed Me]

Doesn’t augur well that he couldn’t land a young family friend playing in Austria. Pulling power

 

[Keefy18]

But our squad cost a shit load more than 120m.

I’m confused here. Does each new manager need 400m to build his squad?

Yep it has cost us a fortune. We achieved a short term "fix" of 2nd place finish.

Reality is though the plan behind it was short term and we reverted back to a general standard of form.

Spending certainly helps alright.

Would Klopp be doing quite as well as he is but for spending world record fees on VVD and Allison?

They were arguably the final pieces of the jigsaw.

 

[Jonno]

they have a game in hand on us?

Are you actually suggesting if a team has a game in hand on us with less points, they are therefore ahead of us? Strange view.

 

[JPRouve]

Doesn’t augur well that he couldn’t land a young family friend playing in Austria. Pulling power

I don't think that it augurs anything, personal relationships are often over-emphasized by the press. Players don't care about these things or the club that they may have supported as kids, otherwise most players wouldn't be playing where they are currently playing.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Who caused the unrest in the dressing room?

I'd be inclined to say benching Moura after him getting them to the CL final on his own against Ajax for a seriously unfit Kane wrecked the dressing room dynamic and the players realised after 4 seasons or whatever it had been that they were never gonna win anything with Poch's tactics and it finally broke.

Poch caused his own downfall, all whilst failing to win anything.

There's an obsession over this 'where would they be if they weren't United manager' thing. Nobody knows.

Fact is right now Poch doesn't have a job through his own fault and nobody is rushing to snap him up.

Meanwhile we've just won two games back to back that I was sure we would lose and we've had a really good December overall with a very inconsistent squad of players. Let's see if we reinforce in January.

The unrest in the dressing room was nothing to do with Poch but more to do with Levy. Spuds are famous for not paying the going rate for players wages. Alderweireld, Eriksen and Vertonghen were all running their contracts down although Alderweireld has recently signed a new contract the unrest was clear to see.

Do you really think Poch is sitting at home and nobody is calling him because you think he isn't good enough? Or is it more likely we wants to study the offers and choose in the summer what his next project is going to be? Poch also has a clause which means he'd lose £12m if he signs for another club before summer. Why shouldn't he relax and rest up before summer because a shortage of job offers he isn't going to have.

 

[Keefy18]

120m not being sufficient to win a title has nothing to do with it being peanuts, you also don't start at zero anyway. You are here insulting people and makes the most idiotic point because you fail to make a simple evaluation, there isn't a single industry where 20% of revenue is peanuts and we are talking about 20% of one of the wealthiest clubs, we quickly go in the 30% for clubs that are around the 10th ranked richest clubs in the world and beyond the top 20 we are in prohibitive shares.

What you are ignoring is we recouped much of that 120m back with Lukaku sales and lowering of the wage bill with loans also.

So it wasn't 20% as you suggest, the books were balanced in terms of transfers and wage bill lowered in the summer.

If you want to make the argument that you need time, luck, talent and money to build a title winning team then do that but don't make a ridiculous that is blatantly untrue, particularly when you decide to be rude about it.

Absolutely you need a mix of all the above.

Two clubs have dominated the league this decade, Man City and Chelsea.

Since the 2009/10 season they have won 7 league titles between them.

Man City & Chelsea have spent the most in that time period on transfers.

Also the correlation is with wages not players registrations costs.

Man City & Chelsea have lower wage bills than our own, yet dominate the league this decade.

 

[JPRouve]

Man City & Chelsea have lower wage bills than our own, yet dominate the league this decade.

Because we have been incompetent.

What you are ignoring is we recouped much of that 120m back with Lukaku sales and lowering of the wage bill with loans also.

So it wasn't 20% as you suggest, the books were balanced in terms of transfers and wage bill lowered in the summer.

I'm not ignoring a thing, I said that 120m isn't peanuts because you mentioned 120m, if you wanted to use an other figure, you should have used an other figure.

 

[Feed Me]

Are you actually suggesting if a team has a game in hand on us with less points, they are therefore ahead of us? Strange view.

No

But it’s not a fair comparison if the sides haven't played the same number of matches

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Are you really gonna give him the 8th place when he joined a shambles mid-season? nar, that'd be like me doing the same for Ole, it's pointless.

The mark of a top manager was there with Klopp after his first summer, by xmas they were 2nd. Yes, they finished 4th which we'd all be delighted with, especially if we ended up on 76 points.

If Ole finishes his first 2 full seasons as 4th and 4th, of course he'll rightfully get time.

Klopp took over on the 8th Oct so not mid season at all.

I’m still interested to know what Ole has to do in your eyes to keep his job and if he doesn’t what you would do next

The number of points in any one season is irrelevant, 4th on 66 is the same as 4th on 76.

 

[Feed Me]

I don't think that it augurs anything, personal relationships are often over-emphasized by the press. Players don't care about these things or the club that they may have supported as kids, otherwise most players wouldn't be playing where they are currently playing.

I was being glib

We don’t have great pulling power because our manager is an also ran and our squad is pretty average

 

[Keefy18]

Because we have been incompetent.

That we have indeed.

Doesn't take away from City and Chelsea insane spending at times and in turn being successful.

I'm not ignoring a thing, I said that 120m isn't peanuts because you mentioned 120m, if you wanted to use an other figure, you should have used an other figure.

In fairness, it was Sky who has routinely brought this number up as a stick to beat Ole with.

If we are all being honest it truly isn't a huge sum of money in today's game by any means, he needs more than that to get some real quality in here and there.

If in August Sky was told that on Dec 29th we'd be 1pt from 4th, in a league cup SF & Qualified top of our EL group he'd of taken it, So dredging up pointless sentiments about money spent of 120m seems really pointless in the bigger picture.

 

[Random Task]

I was being glib

We don’t have great pulling power because our manager is an also ran and our squad is pretty average

Do people actually believe this stuff?

United's 'pulling power' is as strong as ever. There are few clubs in the game today (if any) that can even compete with United where salary + benefits are concerned, let alone offer more.

Cash will always be the primary factor for a professional football choosing his next destination. No offense intended, but you'd be naive to believe anything else.

 

[Mainoldo]

Winning a league title is a better CV than managing a B team, yes?

Was that a dig at Pep

 

[Keefy18]

This deserves mentioning again.

Leaving aside the fact that it obviously isn't true, as Woodward confirmed, WHY would you be happy if Ole had sanctioned £140m on the transfers of two defenders based just on advice from Phelan and Gary fecking Neville? Two absolute giants in the realms of football management and player scouting . Absolutely senseless.

oOOHKaaaay then...

Phelan was part of Ferguson's coaching staff for 14 years! He oversaw what was arguably our most successful period in the clubs history as Ferguson's right hand man! Surely you knew that?

G Neville clearly is a fantastic coach, perhaps not a manager but he knows the game well and is clearly a good judge of a player.

I'd absolutely feckin trust Phelan for sure anyway!

Seriously though, what is too complicated for you to understand here? Why, in your mind, is this deranged idea that Ole bypassed the scouting department and relied solely on the advice of two absolute no marks trumping direct quotes from Woodward to the same fecking magazine Mitten works for?!

In fairness, Mitten is a respected contact with regards United.

• If Ole by passed the scouting it goes to show how bad it is.
• If Ole didn't by pass it and was reliant on them, what were the targets? It doesn't seem like they offered up many options if we are basing it off reliable journalists info.

There was definite interest in Dybala, don't think anyone disputes that. That signing screams Woodward / our scouting, call it whatever you will. I think they hoped they could get him on reasonable wages but his demands were mental.

Outside of that, it's really a guessing game on whom you choose to believe.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yep it has cost us a fortune. We achieved a short term "fix" of 2nd place finish.

Reality is though the plan behind it was short term and we reverted back to a general standard of form.

Spending certainly helps alright.

Would Klopp be doing quite as well as he is but for spending world record fees on VVD and Allison?

They were arguably the final pieces of the jigsaw.

He earnt that right by getting 4th and reaching a ChampionsLeague final. What we heading towards?

 

[El Zoido]

United are a team on the up, so we won’t have too much of a problem securing targets.

 

[Keefy18]

He earnt that right by getting 4th and reaching a ChampionsLeague final. What we heading towards?

Heading towards a brighter future clearly.

AWB, Maguire, Vic, Fred, McTominay, James, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Williams...

The futures brighter than it has been in a very long time.

 

[Gehrman]

United are a team on the up, so we won’t have too much of a problem securing targets.

Bit early for that. Let's see end of season.

 

[Mainoldo]

Heading towards a brighter future clearly.

AWB, Maguire, Vic, Fred, McTominay, James, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Williams...

The futures brighter than it has been in a very long time.

I could say the same with LVG’s squad he left us... but everyone was fed up of him. Those players will stay exactly where they are at if we don’t hire a world class coach sooner than later.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I don't think that it augurs anything, personal relationships are often over-emphasized by the press. Players don't care about these things or the club that they may have supported as kids, otherwise most players wouldn't be playing where they are currently playing.

This is so true. I don't blame him at all - our future is very uncertain, not that Dortmund seem to be doing a whole lot better but they're a little more secure than us, for sure.

 

[Keefy18]

I could say the same with LVG’s squad he left us... but everyone was fed up of him. Those players will stay exactly where they are at if we don’t hire a world class coach sooner than later.

Pretty sure we had a "world class coach" in Jose and if anything it hurt us more thanks to his mentality.

Honestly I think this is the best the squad has looked in years with long term in mind.

The average age of the squad has dropped a lot. The young lads are being tasked with taking spots in the side and as the weeks and months go by they are doing just that.

Going into next season, Greenwood and Williams will be key players. Martial and Rashford are really starting to step up and deliver like we've cried out for for years.

Functional midfield pairing.

Solid RB.

Young is gone at the end of season. Matic will follow if we get CM's in, need the scouts and Judge to deliver on that before Matic moves on.

 

[dal]

I truly believe man management and motivation is the single most important thing in the modern game

game style can be implemented easily
The counter attack the press, sitting deep.
Thats all down to the players and right coaches breath you which the richest teams should easily have access too

As long as u have good coaches and the right players beneath you, they will implement it and it’s the managers job to get them motivated

And I’m certain he’s a brilliant man manager hence I’m certain he’s the man for the job long term. He’s already won two leagues and regardless winning two leagues anywhere shows you have certain qualities.

Man management has never been more important, millionaires need to be handled carefully Ole seems like he can do that, it’s a transition year, I see a vision, he knows our weaknesses.

Im very very confident for next season.

 

[Mainoldo]

Pretty sure we had a "world class coach" in Jose and if anything it hurt us more thanks to his mentality.

Honestly I think this is the best the squad has looked in years with long term in mind.

The average age of the squad has dropped a lot. The young lads are being tasked with taking spots in the side and as the weeks and months go by they are doing just that.

Going into next season, Greenwood and Williams will be key players. Martial and Rashford are really starting to step up and deliver like we've cried out for for years.

Functional midfield pairing.

Solid RB.

Young is gone at the end of season. Matic will follow if we get CM's in, need the scouts and Judge to deliver on that before Matic moves on.

That manager got us out best league finish since SAF.

You say long term... long term for what? And when? Two years ago Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Lindelof, Bailly, Shaw, Lukaku and Mc Sauce included was below 25 and we finished second. On paper that looks just as promising as what you’ve just said above. But I’m not an idiot I knew Jose wasn’t going to develop youth and also he was finished as a tactician. So now we are in the same predicament fortunately enough but with a manager that will not take these players on any further.

So do we really stick or twist? Daniel James cannot just be relied on pace as the years go on. Ole going to improve that? AWB needs to improve attacking wise and McTomminay needs to be more tactically astute; this passion crap will only take him so fare but he’s got the brain to really dominate the best of midfielders. However non of this happens under the current manager.

I’ll thank him for his idea of how we should look when we pull the plug but he is no way good enough to get us back to a title.

 

[Mainoldo]

I truly believe man management and motivation is the single most important thing in the modern game

game style can be implemented easily
The counter attack the press, sitting deep.
Thats all down to the players and right coaches breath you which the richest teams should easily have access too

As long as u have good coaches and the right players beneath you, they will implement it and it’s the managers job to get them motivated

And I’m certain he’s a brilliant man manager hence I’m certain he’s the man for the job long term. He’s already won two leagues and regardless winning two leagues anywhere shows you have certain qualities.

Man management has never been more important, millionaires need to be handled carefully Ole seems like he can do that, it’s a transition year, I see a vision, he knows our weaknesses.

Im very very confident for next season.

We should have just have gave the job to Neil Lennon then.

 

[Keefy18]

That manager got us out best league finish since SAF.

That runner up place flattered us a lot! I mean, well and truly a lot!

De Gea made more saves that season than in the previous seasons with Jose and LVG. But the narrative spun is De Gea saved LVG's arse. He again made more saves last season largely thanks to our dreadful start to the season.

You say long term... long term for what? And when? Two years ago Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Lindelof, Bailly, Shaw, Lukaku and Mc Sauce included was below 25 and we finished second. On paper that looks just as promising as what you’ve just said above. But I’m not an idiot I knew Jose wasn’t going to develop youth and also he was finished as a tactician. So now we are in the same predicament fortunately enough but with a manager that will not take these players on any further.

Long term to win a league obviously.

Ole himself might not do it but I've no doubt the squad will be in a far better state than the one he inherited from Jose.

Jose misused Rashford horribly. Martial he got some brilliant form early in season 2, then decided to over pay for under performing Sanchez and oust Martial from the side! Absolute insanity.

Is there any evidence what so ever that Ole will treat players in a similar fashion? Quite the opposite with us telling Dybal and now Haaland to get fecked with their wage demands.

Bailly never good enough and Same goes for Rom. Shaw has been terrible bar his start for LVG.

Outside of that list of players you've given, he persisted with ageing burnt out players like Valencia, Young, Matic and Fellaini over younger players chomping at the bite to take a spot.

So do we really stick or twist? Daniel James cannot just be relied on pace as the years go on. Ole going to improve that? AWB needs to improve attacking wise and McTomminay needs to be more tactically astute; this passion crap will only take him so fare but he’s got the brain to really dominate the best of midfielders. However non of this happens under the current manager.

I’ll thank him for his idea of how we should look when we pull the plug but he is no way good enough to get us back to a title.

Absolutely we stick.

These are young players that are gradually improving. There's clear evidence players are improving under him like Fred, McTominay, Martial, Rashford for example. Some obviously won't cut it, as is always the case but I think the squad is looking very healthy.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

This keefy guy is gonna be the all time record redcafe poster by the Summer.

 

[Mainoldo]

That runner up place flattered us a lot! I mean, well and truly a lot!

De Gea made more saves that season than in the previous seasons with Jose and LVG. But the narrative spun is De Gea saved LVG's arse. He again made more saves last season largely thanks to our dreadful start to the season.



Long term to win a league obviously.

Ole himself might not do it but I've no doubt the squad will be in a far better state than the one he inherited from Jose.

Jose misused Rashford horribly. Martial he got some brilliant form early in season 2, then decided to over pay for under performing Sanchez and oust Martial from the side! Absolute insanity.

Is there any evidence what so ever that Ole will treat players in a similar fashion? Quite the opposite with us telling Dybal and now Haaland to get fecked with their wage demands.

Bailly never good enough and Same goes for Rom. Shaw has been terrible bar his start for LVG.

Outside of that list of players you've given, he persisted with ageing burnt out players like Valencia, Young, Matic and Fellaini over younger players chomping at the bite to take a spot.



Absolutely we stick.

These are young players that are gradually improving. There's clear evidence players are improving under him like Fred, McTominay, Martial, Rashford for example. Some obviously won't cut it, as is always the case but I think the squad is looking very healthy.

Don’t agree. But at least you actually have some good points.

By don’t agree I don’t see any style which guarantees player improvement without us just throwing money at getting better players but even then the tactics will mean they’ll look as good as Maguire (average) and like you said he’s not the man to win us a title however I can see Pochettino doing just that, which is why I want him to take over in the summer.

 

[Keefy18]

Don’t agree. But at least you actually have some good points.

By don’t agree I don’t see any style which guarantees player improvement without us just throwing money at getting better players but even then the tactics will mean they’ll look as good as Maguire (average) and like you said he’s not the man to win us a title however I can see Pochettino doing just that, which is why I want him to take over in the summer.

Of course money will have to be spent, that's a given.

What I mean is I don't expect he'll spend as recklessly as Jose did. He was basically spending for spending's sake, not selling to lower the wage bill and raise funds. He bought players like Sanchez which destroyed the morale at the club and ousted a hugely talented player in Martial. Alienated De Gea our best player the previous 4 years.

In general our games are far, far, far more enjoyable to watch than at any point under LVG or Jose! This is without our most creative outlet in Pogba as well bear in mind.

I said I'm undecided if Ole will or not, its probably more likely he won't but at this point in time, I still wouldn't rule it out. I can see Pep leaving in May if I'm honest and City falling off a bit. I think Chelsea and ourselves have a real chance to climb up the table with that in mind if Ole gets genuine support in terms of player acquisitions.

Weather its Jose, Ole or Poch... the same problems surrounding scouting and transfers remain with the board / scouting team so I honestly don't see the benefit in changing manager.

Bare in mind what a managerial change means, its a complete reset again and further time in "transition". Players Ole rates and plays, Poch might not. Playing style will change, transfer targets change...

It's simply delaying any hope of getting some kind of long term stability back.

 

[El Zoido]

I could say the same with LVG’s squad he left us... but everyone was fed up of him. Those players will stay exactly where they are at if we don’t hire a world class coach sooner than later.

A “world class coach” that would bin half of them off and sign Lukaku for £90m.

Btw Ole is a lot better of a manager than he gets credit for. I think he at least deserves a bit longer because his team hasn’t even properly taken shape or developed yet. Patience is required. I think we’re improving nicely so let’s just wait and see before upturning everything yet again. Give Ole a couple more players and then let’s see.