The “Ole In” Brigade

[Leftback99]

These are questions that are constantly being evaded. All you’ll hear is we’re on the right track and he’s rebuilding. Will it end in us challenging for major titles? Who the feck knows but sure let’s give Ole a crack at the whip because there’s nobody else that could do any better. What better place than Manchester United to learn on the job such as how to beat the mighty Watford, Villa and West Ham consistently. If Ole fails sure why not give another rookie a shot?

After you have sacked him today who do you want in that is such a sure thing to win us titles?

 

[Shark]

After you have sacked him today who do you want in that is such a sure thing to win us titles?

I’m not saying winning titles is ever a sure thing, but that we have put our chances at an all time low yet again as we did with David Moyes. Just because two experienced managers that have won it all failed doesn’t mean we give up hiring them. Mourinho isn’t the manager he was and he took us to 2nd. LVG was also nowhere close to his peak. We’ve yet to actually sign, although they don’t grow on trees, a Klopp/Pep/Simeone level manager that’s on top of their trade. Who that manager is, I don’t know yet but I hope the club is making the preparations for yet another experiment going a South. I want Ole to succeed more than anything, but I have to be realistic also.

 

[Zen86]

I’m not saying winning titles is ever a sure thing, but that we have put our chances at an all time low yet again as we did with David Moyes. Just because two experienced managers that have won it all failed doesn’t mean we give up hiring them. Mourinho isn’t the manager he was and he took us to 2nd. LVG was also nowhere close to his peak. We’ve yet to actually sign, although they don’t grow on trees, a Klopp/Pep/Simeone level manager that’s on top of their trade. Who that manager is, I don’t know yet but I hope the club is making the preparations for yet another experiment going a South. I want Ole to succeed more than anything, but I have to be realistic also.

The club and squad are improving. It would be complete and utter madness to get rid of the manager while that’s the case.

Maybe he will prove himself the one to win us the league and maybe he won’t, time will tell soon enough. You don’t just unfairly sack a manager because another one will probably do better.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I don't understand the negativity. We're doing OK in the league and there are still lots of games left. We're in the cups and in Europe. Our team is improving, which it will do as it's a very young team and Ole is improving too, because he is also young and learning. We have one game plan that works excellently against top 6 sides and I believe that after the January window, whether we keep Pogba or not, we will have the creativity in midfield to play through the lines against the low block.

People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.

 

[Gehrman]

I don't understand the negativity. We're doing OK in the league and there are still lots of games left. We're in the cups and in Europe. Our team is improving, which it will do as it's a very young team and Ole is improving too, because he is also young and learning. We have one game plan that works excellently against top 6 sides and I believe that after the January window, whether we keep Pogba or not, we will have the creativity in midfield to play through the lines against the low block.

People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.

It's because until recently we were breaking all kinds of negative records. As the results improve so does all the negative talk.

 

[Jezpeza]

I’m on the fence with this one - positives for me is the squad is improving, and the older/lesser quality players are being sold or used less than youth. Greenwood is going to be some player and the majority of the first 11 are not yet in their prime. We are very inconsistent this season in the main - for instance, i watched the palace game, we battered them but didnt score, and they got two shit goals. But then we have done over bigger teams.

i think also on the other hand, Ole has at time showed some tactical naivety - like when all the attackers were out for the Newcastle game at the start of the season and he tried to persist with the same tactics.

the big problem is midfield, when we face entrenched teams, we dont have that player that unlocks the opposition. thats just a personnel issue.

i also think people are quick to point to cvs and proven players over youth but - we just had two managers with huge CV’s signing ‘big’ players for huge fees from abroad - did either get us anywhere near it?

 

[Mainoldo]

1. I don't need the bet. Did you say so when Porto won Champions League? When Leicester won Premier League? If or when he wins, there is no 100% answer. I can say that I think that he will not leave club without trophy. What trophy remains to be seen. What he is doing now is creating something good for the sake of squad and mostly club.

2. Well, if you asked youself last december if you would like being in position where club is not toxic anymore we all know what the answer would be. We are better of in every aspect since last year. Time is required for medals and trophies and nothing is done in a year.

3. I just proved to you that even Guardiola, with inherited stars, needed almost 1billion to already team full of stars. And they are struggling right now. So if you get rid of Ole, don't you think that a new manager would buy lot of players? Or do you think they would be happy with what they got and suddenly start winning titles? Even Klopp who is on everyones lips needed time and money to get it right. Thing take time.

4. The answer was not for you but for the other guy making it like it was Solskjaer fault. I agree with you that first and most we should be looking at midfielders. But a striker wouldn't hurt.

1) So what you are telling me is you hope we can fluke a league title win? Great stuff. On Porto though.. who was there manager again and what did he do the year before? Add some context please.

2) The club was toxic for like 5 minutes. This is so overrated. It was toxic because of 1 guy. That same guy in point one who also left Real Madrid and Chelsea in the same state and they didn’t hire Ole to fix there mess. The actually hired managers who within 12-18 months won them titles.. so toxicity clearly doesn’t need a 3 year rebuild.

3) What inherited stars? He had two star players Aguero and Yaya Toure.. he didn’t even play the latter. Don’t bring up David Silva or KDB either as they wasn’t the players he turned them into. Plus what is your point? Is Solskjaer not getting money to improve things is that what your are implying? At least they brought players with a plan we brought a ball playing CB and we don’t play out from the back, and defensive RB and we want to attack from the flanks and a LW who we play on the right.

4) We do need an attacker I agree, just not the type most believe we need.

 

[ReddBalls]

People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.

Well said.

 

[Sing you a song]

How is the Mourinho team terrible and a trainwreck when it ended in second place the season before?

I know the confidence and structure got destroyed near the end, but Ole lifted that from the start.
Although the lack of attacking patterns and a good style has cost us with time.

The team finished second place the season before because ....
it had Zlatan not only top scorer but also a beast on the field and a natural leader for the squad whose influence that season cannot be over stated.
It also had a fully motivated and fully functioning Pogba along with a Matic that was a year away from going over the hill rather than a year after going over the hill .
Ole has had none of these luxuries.

 

[90 + 5min]

1) So what you are telling me is you hope we can fluke a league title win? Great stuff. On Porto though.. who was there manager again and what did he do the year before? Add some context please.

2) The club was toxic for like 5 minutes. This is so overrated. It was toxic because of 1 guy. That same guy in point one who also left Real Madrid and Chelsea in the same state and they didn’t hire Ole to fix there mess. The actually hired managers who within 12-18 months won them titles.. so toxicity clearly doesn’t need a 3 year rebuild.

3) What inherited stars? He had two star players Aguero and Yaya Toure.. he didn’t even play the latter. Don’t bring up David Silva or KDB either as they wasn’t the players he turned them into. Plus what is your point? Is Solskjaer not getting money to improve things is that what your are implying? At least they brought players with a plan we brought a ball playing CB and we don’t play out from the back, and defensive RB and we want to attack from the flanks and a LW who we play on the right.

4) We do need an attacker I agree, just not the type most believe we need.

No, I didn't say that. I said that you didn't thought that Porto and Leicester would win either. But they did. So don't be suprised if Solskjaer starts winning titles that will show that you are wrong again. And he will win titles. That is what I think.

5 minutes? Comon. From the beggining of the pre season it was bad. Really bad. Toxic as people say. Everyone saw that we would struggle and everyone saw that Mourinho were at war every press conference.

Wrong. Real Madrid one just one LaLiga title after Mourinho and it took some time. So in 7 years they have won 1 title. Sure, they won Champions League titles and credit goes to them. But wait a minute. Who was there manager those years? Nobody with any great CV. They took one old player in Zidane. So you can hire a manager with no CV or very little and still manage to do some good things.

You really must be kidding? No stars? It is like people saying that Pochettino came to Tottenham having championship players. Look at the squad he inherited from Pellegrini. Just look. Point is that Solskjaer needs time. Times to do something about our team. And to buy player we need. We can't buy 10 players in one window.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

One year? Forever? Please. This is not Football Manager. Hadn't Klopp won CL least year and his team were beating everyone now (except us) you wouldn't even bring him up and you would say he was waste of time.

Wrong. Maybe you cannot look behind the names of the winners of trophies. But paying close attention to the key metrics and quality of football, the progress Klopp had made was clear at the end of 17/18 (where some here were hailing Mourinho and criticising Klopp as a fraud) let alone 18/19.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don't understand the negativity. We're doing OK in the league and there are still lots of games left. We're in the cups and in Europe. Our team is improving, which it will do as it's a very young team and Ole is improving too, because he is also young and learning. We have one game plan that works excellently against top 6 sides and I believe that after the January window, whether we keep Pogba or not, we will have the creativity in midfield to play through the lines against the low block.

People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.

Nope. People are looking at what he's doing right now which definitely isn't enough. Then they're forming their views on what he's likely to do in the future based on a mediocre present - because that's the only logical basis for the same.

As for negativity, it's pretty obvious as well. Youth, pace and energy is all well and good. But there has been little to suggest that Ole is a top manager or one in the making. And it must be made absolutely clear - we need a top managerial talent if not someone who is already there. Based on what I've seen Ole may sneak one top 4 finish and possibly a cup, much like LVG managed, but as with him, I see him proving to not be good enough and eventually leaving without genuinely making the strides we need to.

 

[Member 117152]

This 100 percent. You're spot on matey. I thunk even pep would struggle with the squad we have amassed over the years. Lots of deadwood, lot here for a paycheck and not to graft.

Ole has identified the promising youth, ditched the deadwood and bought fairly well. I genuinely think his plan was to improve defense year 1, improve midfield year 2 and add finishing touches (attackers if necessary) year 3.

The players clearly like him and as someone else said, it's about managing egos at this level. The egos he couldn't manage have been shipped.

I think the future looks bright(ish). That said I wouldn't be surprised if itn goes wrong. Just more confident than I was a year or two ago. In fact, more confident since at any time since fergie left.

Any manager would have struggled this season. I’m Ole in but Pep is one of a kind so it’s almost disrespectful to compare.

Is Pep underrated on here because he’s City’s manager or something? I remember he absolutely wiped our best side ever off the field in Rome 10 years ago. No excuses for players. Barcelona’s tactics did it not just the quality.

His understanding of the game is a level above any manager I've ever seen, chequebook or not. The man is probably the genius of world football behind Messi at this point.

 

[meamth]

I don't understand the negativity. We're doing OK in the league and there are still lots of games left. We're in the cups and in Europe. Our team is improving, which it will do as it's a very young team and Ole is improving too, because he is also young and learning. We have one game plan that works excellently against top 6 sides and I believe that after the January window, whether we keep Pogba or not, we will have the creativity in midfield to play through the lines against the low block.

People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.

Spot on, like the players managers have potential too.

But sadly that is not accepted here in Caf. Weird, and stupid.

 

[pav1790]

Any manager would have struggled this season. I’m Ole in but Pep is one of a kind so it’s almost disrespectful to compare.

Is Pep underrated on here because he’s City’s manager or something? I remember he absolutely wiped our best side ever off the field in Rome 10 years ago. No excuses for players. Barcelona’s tactics did it not just the quality.

His understanding of the game is a level above any manager I've ever seen, chequebook or not. The man is probably the genius of world football behind Messi at this point.

you don’t remember the moaning about how fletcher was missing for the game because of the card in semis? That Carrick thread went on for years saying how shocking he was for the final and let Barcelona walk all over our midfield - with some comparing him to the previous player who wore his number unfavorably - fair and harsh at the same time.

we played our football and we weren’t good enough in 2009 - we were in 2008 semis. It was absolutely not about the system. It was about the quality. It is a match that I remember vividly. We were all over them in the beginning but the goal from Eto deflated us for a long while. And it seemed like we couldn’t do anything after.

 

[matt10000]

A total misreading of the situation. Effective managers have to be able to develop and improve players. Top level coaching is a heavily intuitive process. How you read players, motivate and handle them differently, create tension to spur performance etc... This is all enhanced by a winning environment. So, besides having an abject recruitment and academy strategy/structure, the conditions for young player development through the first team are non-existent. So just throwing away seasons with a totally inadequate coach is an asinine plan...risking players' opportunities to improve, resulting more likely in stagnation or regression. EW, aided by OGS, has successfully lowered the standards and expectations. People are content with basic signings at this point, when there's maybe only 3 quality outfield players (at current levels) who would make up a starting XI league winning side. If you bring in a top coach, you know that players will grow and improve.

You are deluded if you can’t see what Ole is doing. Too many doom mongers and would be managers talking nonsense

 

[Member 113277]

You are deluded if you can’t see what Ole is doing. Too many doom mongers and would be managers talking nonsense

I agree with Matt10000 - improved players this years - McTominay, Fred, Rashford - possibly Martial (need to see a longer run). Youngsters being introduced, with a view to the future - Greenwood, Williams.

Three decent signings last window, Maguire, AWB, James, who have been integrated into the team.

The current situation is way more positive than for several seasons, even if some of the games are awful. Add in a decent midfielder or two in this window and that will be the start of a competitive team.

 

[matt10000]

1) So what you are telling me is you hope we can fluke a league title win? Great stuff. .....

Hahahaha you can’t fluke a league title.

 

[midnightmare]

Teams always needs uppgrades. It was the same with Chelsea before Conte took over from Mourinho when they had been as bad as us. He did bring in Kante to improve the midfield and they won the league. Alonso and Luiz in too
and if we had bought those two this place would go crazy. A good manager can improve a team which Conte did. He made Moses perform great which would be similar to a manager getting Lingard to perform here.
I personally considered them a bigger mess than us since Ivanovic got old, Terry retired and they had midfielders not performing and a Diego Costa fighting with everyone. Although they sorted the defense out with Luiz and the midfield with kante and for one season at least he made Costa perform for them before he wanted to sell him.

People said Real was a wreck last season, but Zidane has got them back on track. That is what top managers do.
He did buy a lot though.
If Woodward didn't want to give Ole more money I guess fair enough it was hard for him to get the players needed.
Although wasting the money on Maguire was not the right call if that was the case when we needed improvements up front and in midfield.

1. Jose had won the league - and didn't leave the decrepit mess behind at Chelsea that he did with us; Conte also bought more. The biggest issue at Chelsea then was the dressing room toxicity - not the squad.
2. We didn't buy anywhere close to the level we needed to - and sold a bunch. Unlike Conte's imperatives in his first season (look where it went after that though, for evidence of what Jose leaves behind)
3. Zidane spent - but more importantly, what Real underwent was a dip that could have been predicted by most. Ageing squad, not added to, lost it's top-scorer and coming immediately after its seniors went deep into a WC. Couple that with a new manager who was horrible at club level. Zidane came back and literally is playing the same team (most of the time) that has won 3 of the last 4 CLs. 4 of the last 6 too. He's a good manager (with a nothing CV pre-Real by the bye) of course, but again, incomparable to our mess. He'd literally been gone just 6 months before he was back!
4. Think it was obvious we needed a CB - and that Ole wanted 3-4 more players but we didn't buy them. Ole started off in March/April talking about replacing outgoings (Fellaini and Herrera then) and buying 3-4 players to bolster the squad. He said openly we'd replace Lukaku if he left (this was early in the summer). His tune started to change later (AP and Lingard can fill in for midfielder; happy with attackers etc.) since he isn't a Jose and therefore doesn't kick the club in public.

If you really think we didn't need a CB, that's your call (I think we did) but let's not make believe that:
a. Our squad was not a decrepit wreck post-Jose
b. Real or Chelsea had anywhere close to the level of issues we did

We've been in the wilderness for years! Chelsea have won 2 league titles in that time. Real have won 4 Champions League titles. I really don't see how we can say that the situations were similar / worse for them than us!

 

[theklr]

If you cant see he is trying to galvanize a young team to have some sort of consistency after the mess we’ve been in, your missing the big picture.

Almost every title-winning team is made up of a bunch of players that has played together, for at least a full season, while having the right attitude. That is what he is trying to do.

And to everyone saying he is a bad coach, just look at how he has improved players while beating the best teams.

Yes, ofcourse - he is struggling against lower sides. But no manager is perfect - just look at Pep’s struggles in CL or Klopp’s inability to defend a lead the first years.

And with the squad and injuries he has gotten, you cant blaim it 100% of it on him, many of the teams we’ve lost against is well-drilled and almost exclusivly train on lying back and wrangling out a win.

Another thing that is common amongst winning managers is that they have gotten time enough to get results. It is too early to say anything about Ole yet. He has deserved time until the end of the season in my eyes. No manager in the world will get us any more than he can this season anyway.

 

[POF]

If you think that passion, mentality and counter-attacking football is enough to win the league or compete long term at the highest level, then you should be "OGS in".

If you think that "knowing the club" or "he can make us like the United of old" is what will make him successful... Sorry, football is not that simple.

What OGS has improved, while difficult to quantify and compare, is the players or the squads' mentality and moral. Hopefully, this will continue to improve until we get a new manager since it can be an important building block for the next man in.

Regarding the composition of the squad (type of players suited to play a certain type of football), transfers in, current and assumed future prefered playing style, I do not see any signs that we will be able to compete tactically or technically. We can compete with teams in regards to passion and physicality, but this is not enough anymore to compete at the highest level. Top football has evolved technically and tactically to the level that effort and physicality are not enough to win a majority of the games over time.

The main question should be: Is the improvement in the squads' mentality enough to offset the increasingly technical and tactical gap between us and the top teams in the EPL and Europe? I think not.

What gap is that then? Can you explain what you mean?

United aren't as good technically? If this is the case it's a recruitment issue or development in the academy and nothing to do with the coach, unless you expect a players' technique to improve significantly that late in his development?

As for tactically vs these big teams, United are the only team to take league points off Liverpool, they beat Chelsea twice, beat City away and beat Spurs and Leicester at home. With a squad so technically deficient, that must be an amazing tactical masterclass to consistently obtain positive results against the other top teams?

Or is "technically and tactically" just what people say when they want to criticise a coach and haven't a clue what they're talking about?

He got Cardiff relegated and came from the Norwegian league you know. Clearly technically and tactically deficient.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

1. Jose had won the league - and didn't leave the decrepit mess behind at Chelsea that he did with us; Conte also bought more. The biggest issue at Chelsea then was the dressing room toxicity - not the squad.
2. We didn't buy anywhere close to the level we needed to - and sold a bunch. Unlike Conte's imperatives in his first season (look where it went after that though, for evidence of what Jose leaves behind)
3. Zidane spent - but more importantly, what Real underwent was a dip that could have been predicted by most. Ageing squad, not added to, lost it's top-scorer and coming immediately after its seniors went deep into a WC. Couple that with a new manager who was horrible at club level. Zidane came back and literally is playing the same team (most of the time) that has won 3 of the last 4 CLs. 4 of the last 6 too. He's a good manager (with a nothing CV pre-Real by the bye) of course, but again, incomparable to our mess. He'd literally been gone just 6 months before he was back!
4. Think it was obvious we needed a CB - and that Ole wanted 3-4 more players but we didn't buy them. Ole started off in March/April talking about replacing outgoings (Fellaini and Herrera then) and buying 3-4 players to bolster the squad. He said openly we'd replace Lukaku if he left (this was early in the summer). His tune started to change later (AP and Lingard can fill in for midfielder; happy with attackers etc.) since he isn't a Jose and therefore doesn't kick the club in public.

If you really think we didn't need a CB, that's your call (I think we did) but let's not make believe that:
a. Our squad was not a decrepit wreck post-Jose
b. Real or Chelsea had anywhere close to the level of issues we did

We've been in the wilderness for years! Chelsea have won 2 league titles in that time. Real have won 4 Champions League titles. I really don't see how we can say that the situations were similar / worse for them than us!

1 Mourinho left a massive mess at Chelsea close to the relegation zone in a weak league that Leicester won. It was worse than for us. They had as many problems with the squad as we had seriously. Although they had Hazard with extreme qualities, but we have Pogba.
2 We spent similar money to Conte. Although sold Lukaku so had much lower net spend. Glaziers/Woodward can probably be blamed for that.
3 Less squad mess for Real no doubt, but it just shows what a good manager can do.
4 Need is relative. CB was the last position I wanted to waste money in. Striker/winger/midfield/Fb was more urgent and I would rather have replaced De gea then giving him that new deal.
Our squad had talent like we see this season, but lacked in some areas that we have not addressed well.

 

[midnightmare]

1 Mourinho left a massive mess at Chelsea close to the relegation zone in a weak league that Leicester won. It was worse than for us. They had as many problems with the squad as we had seriously. Although they had Hazard with extreme qualities, but we have Pogba.
2 We spent similar money to Conte. Although sold Lukaku so had much lower net spend. Glaziers/Woodward can probably be blamed for that.
3 Less squad mess for Real no doubt, but it just shows what a good manager can do.
4 Need is relative. CB was the last position I wanted to waste money in. Striker/winger/midfield/Fb was more urgent and I would rather have replaced De gea then giving him that new deal.
Our squad had talent like we see this season, but lacked in some areas that we have not addressed well.

That's only if you judge the squad solely by the position they were in. They were reigning champions who hadn't lost players - just lost faith in the manager. It's absolutely not the case like with us where he left a squad that was absolutely gutted and nowhere close to competitive. Chelsea didn't start that final Jose season wondering "Wonder if this team can mount a top 4 challenge" - they were one of the favourites for the title! It's disingenuous to just cite the league position he left them in.

Yes, Conte inherited a weak-ish defence - but he also inherited a strong midfield and added Kante to it. He bought 2 defenders as well, and then had a squad that included all of: Alonso, Cahill, Terry, Azpi, Luiz, Zouma, Fabregas, Kante, Oscar (sold in Jan), Hazard, Willian, Matic (young, effective Matic) and Costa - this without counting Pedro, Moses and co. That's a good sight better than we started this season with!

You mention Pogba - but good as he is, Pogba has never been for us what Hazard was for Chelsea. A consistent match-winner who could literally win the game by his own performance. Blame Pogba's supporting cast all you like (though that would only bolster the argument that it was a better squad), but Hazard single-handedly carried Chelsea often, while Pogba has all too few such displays.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

That's only if you judge the squad solely by the position they were in. They were reigning champions who hadn't lost players - just lost faith in the manager. It's absolutely not the case like with us where he left a squad that was absolutely gutted and nowhere close to competitive. Chelsea didn't start that final Jose season wondering "Wonder if this team can mount a top 4 challenge" - they were one of the favourites for the title! It's disingenuous to just cite the league position he left them in.

Yes, Conte inherited a weak-ish defence - but he also inherited a strong midfield and added Kante to it. He bought 2 defenders as well, and then had a squad that included all of: Alonso, Cahill, Terry, Azpi, Luiz, Zouma, Fabregas, Kante, Oscar (sold in Jan), Hazard, Willian, Matic (young, effective Matic) and Costa - this without counting Pedro, Moses and co. That's a good sight better than we started this season with!

You mention Pogba - but good as he is, Pogba has never been for us what Hazard was for Chelsea. A consistent match-winner who could literally win the game by his own performance. Blame Pogba's supporting cast all you like (though that would only bolster the argument that it was a better squad), but Hazard single-handedly carried Chelsea often, while Pogba has all too few such displays.

We had lost noone and ended in second too the season before. Fabregas was clearly not good enough as a starter defensively for most games. The midfield they had was a mess too like ours. Matic was younger than he is for us, but with still limited mobility.
We could have been third favorites with a good manager and top players too.

Had they gone for Ole and ended in 6th people would have called that squad a mess needing years to rebuild too.

 

[Wumminator]

If you think that passion, mentality and counter-attacking football is enough to win the league or compete long term at the highest level, then you should be "OGS in".

If you think that "knowing the club" or "he can make us like the United of old" is what will make him successful... Sorry, football is not that simple.

What OGS has improved, while difficult to quantify and compare, is the players or the squads' mentality and moral. Hopefully, this will continue to improve until we get a new manager since it can be an important building block for the next man in.

Regarding the composition of the squad (type of players suited to play a certain type of football), transfers in, current and assumed future prefered playing style, I do not see any signs that we will be able to compete tactically or technically. We can compete with teams in regards to passion and physicality, but this is not enough anymore to compete at the highest level. Top football has evolved technically and tactically to the level that effort and physicality are not enough to win a majority of the games over time.

The main question should be: Is the improvement in the squads' mentality enough to offset the increasingly technical and tactical gap between us and the top teams in the EPL and Europe? I think not.

Thank you for posting this. I now know that you are an oracle of football and clearly can see how the future will play out. It is obvious that you understand the intricacies and nuances of predictions poster named after Fosu-Mensah.

 

[90 + 5min]

Wrong. Maybe you cannot look behind the names of the winners of trophies. But paying close attention to the key metrics and quality of football, the progress Klopp had made was clear at the end of 17/18 (where some here were hailing Mourinho and criticising Klopp as a fraud) let alone 18/19.

I can look at that. At his progress. I was telling that the member here would look that way if Klopp didn’t won last year.
I have always said that teams and managers need time to do something. Do develop something. To build something. Clearly there is one standard for Ole and one for others only because Ole isn’t a cool ”name”.

 

[Mainoldo]

We had lost noone and ended in second too the season before. Fabregas was clearly not good enough as a starter defensively for most games. The midfield they had was a mess too like ours. Matic was younger than he is for us, but with still limited mobility.
We could have been third favorites with a good manager and top players too.

Had they gone for Ole and ended in 6th people would have called that squad a mess needing years to rebuild too.

So true.. but always the case. There
Never as good as they say you are and it’s never as bad as people make it seem.

If we was currently 3rd under another manager we’d all be talking about this same team as future premier league champions.

 

[sammyk123]

The team finished second place the season before because ....
it had Zlatan not only top scorer but also a beast on the field and a natural leader for the squad whose influence that season cannot be over stated.
It also had a fully motivated and fully functioning Pogba along with a Matic that was a year away from going over the hill rather than a year after going over the hill .
Ole has had none of these luxuries.

Zlatan was not our top scorer that year. In fact, he barely kicked a ball and was released in Jan.

As for Pogba, he was great first half of the season but faded away in the second half and his problems with Mourinho/general motivation were already evident as far back as January 2018 when he was subbed off early against Spurs.

We finished second because Jose utilized an effective but pragmatic style and managed to get results consistently, without really entertaining the fans.

With Ole this season it's been much more of a roller coaster. Either great attacking performances or shockingly poor. Burnley was the first time this season I felt we ground out a good win.

 

[midnightmare]

We had lost noone and ended in second too the season before. Fabregas was clearly not good enough as a starter defensively for most games. The midfield they had was a mess too like ours. Matic was younger than he is for us, but with still limited mobility.
We could have been third favorites with a good manager and top players too.

Had they gone for Ole and ended in 6th people would have called that squad a mess needing years to rebuild too.

One final stab after which I will just leave well be.
1. Matic then was one of the best DMs in the league. Which is also why his first half-season with us saw our upturn as he put in some great performances.
2. That said, they still got in Kante - who proceeded to show just how much of a beast he is when on top of his game
3. This gave them a solid center - to which they added the gloss with the likes of Hazard, Moses and Willian with Pedro, Fabregas etc. to add depth

By contrast, our MF consisted of McTominay, Fred, Matic and Pogba with Andreas, Mata and Lingard to add "depth". I genuinely can't see how you can even argue that their midfield was anywhere close to ours in being "a mess". Seriously. It's one thing to say Ole isn't good enough, but can't we make that point without such ludicrous misdirection?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I can look at that. At his progress. I was telling that the member here would look that way if Klopp didn’t won last year.
I have always said that teams and managers need time to do something. Do develop something. To build something. Clearly there is one standard for Ole and one for others only because Ole isn’t a cool ”name”.

There is. Becuase Ole gets clubbed with top class managers becuase he's Ole and no other reason. Time AND talent is required. Big Sam won't have us hitting 90 points if he's given 20 years in charge.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

One final stab after which I will just leave well be.
1. Matic then was one of the best DMs in the league. Which is also why his first half-season with us saw our upturn as he put in some great performances.
2. That said, they still got in Kante - who proceeded to show just how much of a beast he is when on top of his game
3. This gave them a solid center - to which they added the gloss with the likes of Hazard, Moses and Willian with Pedro, Fabregas etc. to add depth

By contrast, our MF consisted of McTominay, Fred, Matic and Pogba with Andreas, Mata and Lingard to add "depth". I genuinely can't see how you can even argue that their midfield was anywhere close to ours in being "a mess". Seriously. It's one thing to say Ole isn't good enough, but can't we make that point without such ludicrous misdirection?

It was a mess before they got Kante to help Matic out. They almost had no options for that defensive role.
I am not counting the wingers as midfielders so them having Hazard is not making it a good midfield.

We had Fred, Pogba, Mctominay, Pogba as midfielders so it is certainly better than what they had. We lack a good 10 just like they did, but
have not managed to sort it out with a different formation, signings or tactics.
Conte sorted the midfield eventually out by getting Kante and playing with a 5 man defense using Moses as a wingback. Thus they only needed two midfielders and got better protection.
We also had a better defense than them before they did bring in players. Maybe not better keeper based on the last years, but if De Gea can find form he is at the same level as Courtois.

They had a better attack no doubt with Hazard, Costa and Willian/Pedro. Although given how problematic Costa has been I do think only a good manager would have been able to sort him out. We had Lukaku and he forced his way out pretty much.

 

[matt10000]

People keep saying Ole is inexperienced yet he has more experience of managing man utd than any other manager around except Mourinho and LVG

 

[wolvored]

If a 45 year old Fergie had took over after Mourinho everybody would have been calling for his head, if it had have panned out like it did 86-90. I dont know if Ole is the answer im 60/40 against at the moment, but lets see who he gets in in January, if anyone, and more importantly who comes and goes in the summer.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

What gap is that then? Can you explain what you mean?

United aren't as good technically? If this is the case it's a recruitment issue or development in the academy and nothing to do with the coach, unless you expect a players' technique to improve significantly that late in his development?

As for tactically vs these big teams, United are the only team to take league points off Liverpool, they beat Chelsea twice, beat City away and beat Spurs and Leicester at home. With a squad so technically deficient, that must be an amazing tactical masterclass to consistently obtain positive results against the other top teams?

Or is "technically and tactically" just what people say when they want to criticise a coach and haven't a clue what they're talking about?

He got Cardiff relegated and came from the Norwegian league you know. Clearly technically and tactically deficient.

If you cannot see the difference in our average player's ability in regards to passing and handling the ball compared to Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Wolverhampton, Leicester etc in the EPL... Just watch a match and see how their passing is more efficient and accurate compared to our simple passing.

The players coming into our first team, like Greenwood, Laird, Garner, Levitt, Gomez, Williams, etc all seem to be at the technical level needed to play a more possession-oriented football. So, it is not an issue with how they train in the academy. I think it is both a coaching and recruitment issue.

I would rather win a majority of the 75% of the games (against the weaker teams) during a season than winning a majority of the games against the good teams and struggling against the weaker teams. Our current set up with a big reliance on counter-attacking football is not a sustainable approach against most of the teams in the league. There are less counter-attacking opportunities per game each year, teams are more cynical in stopping counter-attacks (learning from City) and being able to systematically outplay teams that sit deep is arguably the best approach to be competitive long term (Bayern, Barca, PSG, City and Liverpool)... We have gone in the complete opposite direction with more players mainly suited to play off the ball and rely on space to utilize their abilities.

OGS seems to be fixing an important issue and that is the culture or mentality within the squad. Molde over the years have developed a good culture/mentality (if this can be quantified) within the club, and this is the one thing OGS is able to and currently doing, and should replicate from the SAF years.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Thank you for posting this. I now know that you are an oracle of football and clearly can see how the future will play out. It is obvious that you understand the intricacies and nuances of predictions poster named after Fosu-Mensah.

Just basing my observations on the developments in football over the years... Fewer counter-attacking situations, best teams in the world are technically superb, compared to previous teams that could win simply by defending, effort and pragmatic tactics...

Top football has gone from "conceding one less than the opponent" to "scoring one more"...
x years ago: Defending>=Attacking --> best approach to winning.
Now: Defending << Attacking --> best approach to winning.
Some nuances, but in general I think this is a fair assessment.

So you think that I chose the name Fosu-Mens to be serious? I expected a more nuanced understanding of the intricacies regarding the process of choosing a name, poster named Wumminator.

 

[POF]

If you cannot see the difference in our average player's ability in regards to passing and handling the ball compared to Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Wolverhampton, Leicester etc in the EPL... Just watch a match and see how their passing is more efficient and accurate compared to our simple passing.

The players coming into our first team, like Greenwood, Laird, Garner, Levitt, Gomez, Williams, etc all seem to be at the technical level needed to play a more possession-oriented football. So, it is not an issue with how they train in the academy. I think it is both a coaching and recruitment issue.

I would rather win a majority of the 75% of the games (against the weaker teams) during a season than winning a majority of the games against the good teams and struggling against the weaker teams. Our current set up with a big reliance on counter-attacking football is not a sustainable approach against most of the teams in the league. There are less counter-attacking opportunities per game each year, teams are more cynical in stopping counter-attacks (learning from City) and being able to systematically outplay teams that sit deep is arguably the best approach to be competitive long term (Bayern, Barca, PSG, City and Liverpool)... We have gone in the complete opposite direction with more players mainly suited to play off the ball and rely on space to utilize their abilities.

OGS seems to be fixing an important issue and that is the culture or mentality within the squad. Molde over the years have developed a good culture/mentality (if this can be quantified) within the club, and this is the one thing OGS is able to and currently doing, and should replicate from the SAF years.

I absolutely can see a difference in how United play in possession vs other top teams. There is an element of coaching in that but it's not the biggest factor. I think you are correct when you mention the technical quality but incorrect when you equate that to the coaching staff and Ole in particular.

The United midfield really lacks quality. That is obviously a far bigger issue when trying to break down a massed defence than hitting teams on the counter attack. That technical quality can be refined at senior level but most players will have developed that techique long before they hit senior football.

Ignoring Pogba (who has missed most of the season), Fred is United's best midfield player in a creative sense. 2 of McTominay, Pereira, Lingard and Mata will generally be the other 2 members of that midfield 3. Mata is a good technician (and little else) but there's not much technical quality in the other 3.

United also has 2 starting full backs who are defensive specialists and contribute nothing offensively.

In short, the squad lacks quality, especially in midfield. There should be no surprise there. United lost 7 members of the first team squad and brought in 3. That was from a base last season where injuries necessitated a change in style due to not enough players outside of the first 11 being able to play the preferred style of play.

If Ole can establish a strong culture (personally I don't think he will without more experienced players), that is just step 1. The next step has to be to add players of the required quality but also the right character. Can they do that with the current recruitment set up? Time will tell.

But, I don't think anyone at the club thought at the start of the season that they had a squad capable of competing. They lost their best defender, most consistent midfield player and their 2 massive money marquee forwards and only bought 2 defenders and a young winger while placing faith in the academy.

When you remove offensive quality for the sake of the club culture and replace it with inexperienced kids, you can expect less quality and more inconsistency.

 

[Member 113277]

We finished second because Jose utilized an effective but pragmatic style and managed to get results consistently, without really entertaining the fans.

Don't forget that De Gea played like a man possessed that season, turning some potential losses into drawas and some potential draws into wins.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

I absolutely can see a difference in how United play in possession vs other top teams. There is an element of coaching in that but it's not the biggest factor. I think you are correct when you mention the technical quality but incorrect when you equate that to the coaching staff and Ole in particular.

The United midfield really lacks quality. That is obviously a far bigger issue when trying to break down a massed defence than hitting teams on the counter attack. That technical quality can be refined at senior level but most players will have developed that techique long before they hit senior football.

Ignoring Pogba (who has missed most of the season), Fred is United's best midfield player in a creative sense. 2 of McTominay, Pereira, Lingard and Mata will generally be the other 2 members of that midfield 3. Mata is a good technician (and little else) but there's not much technical quality in the other 3.

United also has 2 starting full backs who are defensive specialists and contribute nothing offensively.

In short, the squad lacks quality, especially in midfield. There should be no surprise there. United lost 7 members of the first team squad and brought in 3. That was from a base last season where injuries necessitated a change in style due to not enough players outside of the first 11 being able to play the preferred style of play.

If Ole can establish a strong culture (personally I don't think he will without more experienced players), that is just step 1. The next step has to be to add players of the required quality but also the right character. Can they do that with the current recruitment set up? Time will tell.

But, I don't think anyone at the club thought at the start of the season that they had a squad capable of competing. They lost their best defender, most consistent midfield player and their 2 massive money marquee forwards and only bought 2 defenders and a young winger while placing faith in the academy.

When you remove offensive quality for the sake of the club culture and replace it with inexperienced kids, you can expect less quality and more inconsistency.

I don't think OGS and the coaching staff has improved this at all, but our squad's lack of technical quality is more on Mourinho and his approach to football over 2,5 years. Our transfers since OGS became manager is what can be put on him --> Not getting technical able midfielders during the summer.

Still, my main point is that to be successful at the highest level you need an emphasis on technical ability and some variant of high press + possession... Our team is no closer to be suited to play this type of football compared to 12 months ago.

 

[Member 113277]

Our transfers since OGS became manager is what can be put on him

Not fair. The manager asks for players and it is up to the club's negotiator's to get them.

Mourinhou was vocal about this, OGS is diplomatic, the end result is the same.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Not fair. The manager asks for players and it is up to the club's negotiator's to get them.

Mourinhou was vocal about this, OGS is diplomatic, the end result is the same.

So OGS did not want AWB or Maguire?

I assume he already knew how inept the people involved with transfers at the club was... Adapt to the situation.
Take an active role in it. With all the talk about a rebuild, why not try to fix some of the issues above him as well. And he has stated that he is the one deciding the targets.

I'm not saying that he is the only one at fault, but he is not without some responsibility either.