The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
No we don't, Ole needs to keep proving himself as he has done this past month, as every manager needs to. Manager's buy themselves time.
Most people don't want miracles, they know this squad should at minimum challenge for top 4 and shouldn't be anywhere near hanging around in 8th, now we are, the huge majority of fans will show patience.
Ive always been Ole In, but the next 2 seasons is a bit much. He needs to demonstrate clear improvement next season to be given any more time after that.
This. 100% this for why if you think rationally, and care for this club then you have no reason to want to interrupt Ole's work right now. It's not about being blind to the problems, but all about being thoughtful.
I don't think anybody disagrees with you on that. 2 seasons is the time that is reasonable to make us a stable, top-performing team. But as far as demonstrating progress - he needs to keep showing it and honestly, had he not shown enough progress (not in terms of meaningless stats, but steady improvement of the team, even if slow and inconsistent) — he would have been gone already. This myth that he has some kind of carte blanche is untrue. Had he not won some key games and shown improvement of young players – he would have been in big trouble already and maybe even gone.
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Ok so if we have a bad month we sack him and replace him with who exactly? Then they have a bad spell and we replace them with who?
How long do you give a manager to build their team? Good job Klopp was given some time.
Comparing Klopp to Ole is foolish, but there’s no telling some people.
Why? The point is managers need time, it’s not rocket science, but there’s no telling some people
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None of them had exactly mouth watering win rates, takes time especially when rebuilding squads. Granted Pep had very little rebuilding to do (he bought pretty much an entire new defense though). But the point is that if you want longer term success then you have to accept the short term will be bumpy.
Thank you, my point exactly, people saying 1-2 seasons is too long to give a manager is crazy. Some people will only accept instant success but that’s not how the real world works.
So no real answer then.
If you bother to dig out Mitten's piece in the Athletic you wouldn't be making statements like this. He bypassed our board / scouting and relied upon close confidants like Phelan (Maguire when at Hull), Giggs (James caps for Wales) & G Nev (England u21 caps with AWB) for each of his signings in the summer.
We targeted Longstaff, but when you are quoted €50m you are clearly being mugged. We targeted Dybala who was asking for outrageous wages that couldn't be justified and the majority agreed with his / boards decision to pull the plug.
TBH, As the season plays out it looks like Ole was completely vindicated in not buying a replacement for Lukaku and introducing Greenwood to the side. Far greater upside and he's easily one of the best performing young strikers in Europe right now.
The issue is the creative mid and considering he bypassed our club set up essentially kinda tells you all you need to know.
So cherry picking periods of time that suit your agenda?
Which Wolves game? You seem to have just copy / pasted Wolves repeatedly here! The cup game? yeah sure they beat us. We were the better team this season and unlucky due to a penalty miss.
Everton away last season? Sure that was terrible sure no doubt about it. The recent Everton game we were easily the better side, woeful De Gea error costing us.
Palace we absolutely feckin smashed for god sake! A missed penalty again here....They had 2 shots on target and scored both, the 2nd is again another error from De Gea. We had 22 shots! Hardly screams we were smashed and out performed does it?
The bold part is genuinely ridiculous. You are beyond attempting to even discuss this with if you truly believe this. There is far too many positives around Ole's tenure to even compare it to Moyes!
Moyes had zero plan. What exactly was positive about his tenure? List me them. Fellaini? An over the hill, over paid Mata? 89 Crosses vs Fulham? Mind boggling statement to compare this season to that!
LVG - I actually liked LVG, I've often supported his ideals to many supporters but christ, the football was scutter! The plan he had moved too slowly as well and ultimately his transfers haven't delivered.
Jose - For me the worst of the lot. The damage he has done to the club is mind boggling. Our wage bill doubled cause he favored short term flavor of the month signings, created player power and bad attitudes, mocked the club, its supporters, owners and players and killed any hope within. The football was dire, some of the worst I've ever sat through, yes...worse than LVG and Moyes. He was saved (pun intended) by De Gea in his 2nd place finish where he was worked harder that season than any other in a United jersey.
Ole - For all your listing of supposed poor games, its as easy to list as many that have been great performances. You by pass his opening 8 games, I wonder why? Take any of them from Cardiff to Arsenal, all fantastic performances. Fulham away (3-0), Chelsea away in the FA Cup (2-0), Palace away (3-1), PSG away (3-1), Chelsea again at home (4-0), Wolves away this season (1-1) - everyone has us to be smashed, we dominated them but for a 15 min period! Both Liverpool games we were the better side and still the only team to take points from Liverpool in their complete dominance of 2019! Norwich away (3-1), Partizan at home (3-0), Spurs at home (2-1), City away (2-1), Colchester (3-0), Newcastle (4-1) and of course yesterday Burnley (2-0).
There's 23 games from his start last December to now, a full calendar year and plenty of great performances & results.
Jose had s*it results vs the bottom 12 sides also ffs. Such revisionist crap!
Season 1: Watford (L), Stoke (home draw), humiliated by Chelsea (4-0) not a bottom 12 side no but thought I'd remind you how s*it some results were, West Ham at home draw, Everton away draw, Stoke away draw, Hull bore draw at home, Bournemouth draw at home, WBA bore draw at home followed by another boring draw with Everton at home with a 94th min penalty equalizer! Swansea home draw & finally Southampton Draw.
In the cups we also lost to Feyonoord, Fenerbache & Hull. Drew with with Rostov, Anderlecht and Celta Vigo!
We finished 6th in the league!
Season 2: Drew with Stoke (he did love a good draw against Stoke!), lost to Huddersfield. Drew with Leicester, Burnley & Southampton 3 games on the bounce. Lost to Newcastle, Lost to WBA at home, which was one of the worst United performances I've seen in decades! Lost to Brighton then drew with West Ham the next game in a bore draw.
In the cups we lost to Basel & Sevilla (where Jose has his now famous post match rant), Lost to Bristol feckin City in the league cup!
We somehow managed to finish 2nd, in an extremely distant fashion!
Reality is this hobbers, our results vs bottom half sides has been poor for years. It was poor for LVG & Moyes as well and hell, even Fergie started to slip up against weaker sides on occasion.
- Valencia was good for LVG for those 2 seasons, not great. He still could of been upgraded on couldn't he? I mean you are dismissing it when Ole upgrades as sure anyone would of done it, but when LVG & Jose didn't it made sense? By the time Jose came around he was in a serious decline! I mean he did buy Dalot but then still often picked Valencia or Young ahead of him throughout that period.
- Matic had a good start in his debut season from Aug to Dec. The second part of that first season he vanished. Second season crap and the half season of last year also crap! So we basically both agree, that for the majority Matic wasn't good enough yet he persisted with Matic like his life depended on it.
- Young likewise, always tried but his best days have been long gone for at least 3 years minimum now!
None of the 3 were good enough options for long term and to build a side around. I mean Valencia was 31, Matic 28 & Young also 31!
Jose talked of building a dynasty like Ferguson yet he absolutely flat out refused to drop any of the 3 for large periods of his tenure here. It's an absolute fact, our avg age of the team last season vs this season has done a 180. Ole is clearly focusing on youth and coaching these young lads for United's benefit for years to come, Jose wanted instant success with burned out talent that simply were not good enough. That's sh*t management whatever way its spun and he failed ultimately.
To dismiss Ole's work here as "any manager would do it" is utter, utter, utter b*llicks pal and you know it. LVG nor Jose did what needed to be done which is what Ole is doing and you dismiss it simply cause we aren't instantly great again.
He's bought well in AWB, James and I expect Maguire will improve and be good for morale / expectations around the club. He's found a functional midfield pair in Fred & McTominay. He's getting insane results from Martial & Rashford who are averaging a goal involvement every 100mins of playing time approx.
His handling of youth is perfection with Williams & Greenwood looking nailed on for years to come!
When you look at our team now
De Gea - form is questionable but still our best keeper, until at least Henderson returns and he will come under serious pressure in the next season or two.
AWB - Nailed on for years!
Maguire & Lindelof - Solid enough pairing but will improve I'm sure.
Shaw / Williams - Williams is slowly taking that spot as his own. Again he is nailed on for years!
Defensive back up in Tuanzebe & Shaw. Not bad options but again I'd be happy to upgrade on the latter in the years to come.
CM
Fred / McTominay - Finally a functioning midfield pair! Young MF pairing and again a long term option!
Pogba - Who knows. If he stays he could make the central attacking mid spot his own in front of Fred / McTominay. His best years are still ahead of him!
Attack
James, Rashford, Martial & Greenwood - The futures VERY promising! I don't even need to say why! All young and nailed on for years!
At what point in ANY of Moyes, LVG & Jose's tenure did our team look this promising long term?
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I'm not sure if I'm Ole-in just yet but if we continue this good form I will be. I can't fully remember but I don't recall ever buying into the excuse that we had poor players under Mourinho and I don't buy it now. Yes, we don't have a title winning squad but it's definitely capable of being better than what we've witnessed thus far. The fact that we've picked up 18 points from the last 9 and that too without Pogba shows that the squad is definitely good enough to finish in the top 4. I'm still not convinced of our playing style when not countering but one thing I won't take credit away from him is the form of Martial and Rashford - he deserves all the credit in the world for their improvement. There was a stat that showed just how clinical we are and these two have been nothing short of phenomenal.
I like the way you are thinking Ollie Derbyshire! Here is something I've always found interesting: Sacking your manager is pointless and a result of bad luck and the stats prove it
Managers are not only sacked when their teams are at a low-ebb. They also tend to be sacked when their teams are being extraordinarily unlucky. The football consultancy 21st Club analysed the points earned by teams in the big five European leagues in the eight games before and after sacking a manager. In the eight games before a manager leaves, the team averages 0.8 points per game. In the eight subsequent matches, they average 1.2 points per game - a clear improvement. But based on expected goals - the quality and quantity of chances created and conceded - the team actually ‘deserved’ 1.2 points per game in the eight points before the manager left, exactly the same as they actually got under their new boss.
You should really read something like this as well, it seems to allign with the point you're making.
Studies on the effectiveness of managerial changes in professional football have been done for a variety of European countries, for example, Belgium, England, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Spain (see for a recent overview Van Ours and van Tuijl 2016).
Two Belgian studies, Balduck et al. (2010a, (2010b), find no performance effects of a coach replacement. Studying English football, Poulsen (2000) finds no effects of a managerial change while Dobson and Goddard (2011) find a negative effect, just after the replacement of a manager
Analyzing data from German football, Salomo and Teichmann (2000) find negative effects of a trainer-coach dismissal, while Hentschel et al. (2012) conclude that a coach change may have a positive effect on homogeneous teams but no effect for heterogeneous teams. De Paola and Scoppa (2011) find similar conclusions for Italian football, just like Tena and Forrest (2007) for Spanish football. Koning (2003), Bruinshoofd and ter Weel (2003), Ter Weel (2011), Van Ours and van Tuijl (2016) study the effects of the replacement of head-coaches in the highest professional football league of the Netherlands. They all find that this does not lead to better performance of the teams involved.
Two Belgian studies, Balduck et al. (2010a, (2010b), find no performance effects of a coach replacement. Studying English football, Poulsen (2000) finds no effects of a managerial change while Dobson and Goddard (2011) find a negative effect, just after the replacement of a manager
Analyzing data from German football, Salomo and Teichmann (2000) find negative effects of a trainer-coach dismissal, while Hentschel et al. (2012) conclude that a coach change may have a positive effect on homogeneous teams but no effect for heterogeneous teams. De Paola and Scoppa (2011) find similar conclusions for Italian football, just like Tena and Forrest (2007) for Spanish football. Koning (2003), Bruinshoofd and ter Weel (2003), Ter Weel (2011), Van Ours and van Tuijl (2016) study the effects of the replacement of head-coaches in the highest professional football league of the Netherlands. They all find that this does not lead to better performance of the teams involved.
My issue is we have been in this situation many times under his tenure where top 4 is in site. That puts pressure on the team to get a result and then the team crumbles and puts in a shocking performance in the next game. I will reserve my judgement for Ole in until we are at least 4th and look like we might make the Champions League.
Given the transfers (or lack of) and injury to Pogba that wouldn’t be a terrible season. But we are 1 point from 4th and Chelsea have a game in hand.
There should be a minimum requirement set every season which for us should be Champions League qualification, unless you can see a sign of massive improvement. I believe the club needs to support Ole with at least one signing in January. They would be mad not to sign a midfielder in my view. There should be money in the bank to do this.
I’ll say it again, Klopp was 2nd and on 40 points by Christmas in his first full season, he wasn’t “given time”, he was doing a tremendous job.
And Ole, no, not a bad month, I didn’t say that at all. Last night with all the changes proved this squad should at bare minimum challenge for top 4, so that’s the standard he should meet to remain in the job presently.
Wait till you're late to work because your car broke down and you have no cash in your wallet.
Arrived at the office, told your boss your reasons and he said like this:
Your work is shit.
Your punctuality is shit.
Having 1000 quid salary isn't enough for you.
Basically you're shit.
Excuses, excuses, more excuses, get the feck out of here, son.
Very true. Jose became a hostage of his own reputation. Everybody expected him to win the league in his second season, going head-to-head against "old rival" Pep. So he decided that he could chase two goals at the same time: achieve results short-term and bring youth up at the same time for the long-term. Which lead to all kinds of bad decisions, such as: rotating Martial and Rashford for the same spot and always starting Lukaku. And when it wasn't working he decided Sanchez was going to be a very expensive but quick fix. We all know how it all ended. Ultimately, by chasing two things, Jose failed at both.
Exactly. None of these wanted to do the hard work of taking short-term heat for the long-term benefit. Actually, in Moyes' case it was worse - he was plain incompetent and inadequate manager for what United needed.
The best thing Jose done over his 2 and a bit years was the Henderson and Tuanzebe loans. They have benefited from the loans massively.
Outside of that, it can largely be seen as a complete and utter waste of time and a detriment to the long term stability of the club.
I don't think it was the case.
Martial was on very good form at the moment Sanchez came in if my memory serves me right. He basically scored or assisted every match he played. Then Sanchez came and he was dropped. Along with this unfair treatment was Sanchez's crazy salary which caused the whole squad unhappy imo. Which eventually cost Jose his job I think.
Generally I totally agree with you, but in reality we have not yet secured 5th place in this round since Sheffield and Wolves have games in hand. Fortunately for us, they are playing Liverpool and Man City, today, so we have good chances of remaining on 5th.
Speaking of, we could use Arsenal winning over Chelsea today. Gives us a chance to remain closer to top 4. Is that totally wrong to wish for Arsenal's win, even if it helps us?
Klopp finished 8,4,4 & 2nd in his first 4 seasons, Liverpool were already playing much better football than we are when Ole took over. Until last year he wasn’t doing a “tremendous” job, he was just about hanging onto his job by your standards.
So if Ole finishes 5th, he should be sacked yeah? Then who do you get in? What if they don’t rate Maguire? James? Martial? What do we do, start again?
Wow. Your car break down? Really? We have a broken down squad? You're given 120m and you bought a broke down car?
Thanks Henrick, that’s very interesting but not surprising. You just have to look at the cycle of managerial changes bottom half teams go through to see the overall negative impact it creates. That’s with the owners, players and fans. The only winners are the managers who are on this merry go round and pick up their pay offs.
People are so ridiculous these days. Played football manager a few times and can tell better than the professionals what’s going wrong.
Pep has never managed a team that hasn’t been streets ahead of the competition budget and quality wise. How he’s allowed Liverpool to totally out do Man City is criminal.
It’s like Alegri said, the coach just watches the artists play. And people here were calling for him to come in. Haha.
Pep has never managed a team that hasn’t been streets ahead of the competition budget and quality wise. How he’s allowed Liverpool to totally out do Man City is criminal.
It’s like Alegri said, the coach just watches the artists play. And people here were calling for him to come in. Haha.
120M is peanuts in today's game and you know it is.
You are trying to portray 120m as being able to fund a complete squad rebuild worthy to challenge for titles.
Please just give it a rest with this idiotic sentiment.
120m isn't peanuts in today's game. You can try to make a point without starting with a ridiculous claim.
Depend on why you sack them. If you bring in someone better the results will improve. Expected goals is a bit silly to use since confidence often can go up with a new manager which improves efficiency. Normally managers gets sacked after poor results too rather than good.
Everton sacking a good manager like koeman was one of the silly calls though. He just had bad luck with the fixtures and had stopped City too.
I dont appreciate the name calling mate. This has been several time you're going personal.
Didn't Liverpool lose 6-1 to Stoke in the last game of the season prior to Klopps appointment? They were a shambles before he joined. In his first incomplete season, he built the foundations that have seen them stay competitive.
Depends on if the players have been trying the best, if they were already giving 100% then there’s no guarantee a better manager will get them performing any better in a short space of time.
Look at Watford, is Pearson better than the last 2 they have sacked? I don’t think so, they are all much of a muchness in my opinion. Watford have a good set of players and just need a bit of luck and some injured players to come back to start picking up some wins.
They had a poor run but Rodgers had them playing some very nice football before that.
Really?
Even in FM now you cannot buy 3 players with 120 million.
What you can get though is more unknown potentials, which I believe people like you will have patience of.
Imagine signing Minamino, Kalvin Phillips, etc.. and AWB, Maguire went to Citteh.
Ohhh the outrage here in caf.
Well, their record was 5-5-6 in the 16 games before Rodgers was sacked. Thats pretty shit if you ask me.
Ignoring the Ole debate, are you guys being serious?
Shh. I'm trying to see the same arguments coming out proving my theory is right.
For us especially, it is looking like that more and more, unfortunately. We're always quoted ridiculous prices for our targets, and I don't trust our negotiators to get good prices regularly.
Of course, we could always go for hidden bargains and release clauses, but then there's no guarantee of quality.
I'm sorry but I have no idea about what this means.
That's incompetency and nothing else. It has nothing to do with 120m being peanuts, we are by some distance one of the wealthiest clubs on earth and it represents 20% of our 2018 revenues that's a massive amount of money and you can do a lot of things with it if you aren't a complete imbecile but it seems that in todays game, when clubs officials are expected to work efficiently they faint.
To make it clear, the issue today is the excess of money. Clubs used to play the market and exploit context such as contracts or player's situation in different clubs, now the wealthiest clubs don't really care, the gap between them and the rest is big enough that they will try to sign players with lengthy contracts that aren't particularly pushing for a move and are ready to pay a premium.
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FM?
You do know we actually broke the british highest fee record, bought another 50m defender and a daniel james for a total of 120m?