Well, we are mid-table and have been most of the season. That is just a fact? But, thank you.So this is hilarious- in order to try & be funny to the Ole out lot you admit United are mid table now -BECAUSE of your saviour Ole. To your other point Pep obviously has credit in the bank for winning numerous titles. Ole does not.
Apart from that- great post
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
So Man City lost to Wolves today. It's a second loss in just this month to mid-table teams (Wolves and United).
Are people on Bluemoon asking for Pep's head? Clearly City is unable to break down lesser teams. Should they not sack Pep and hire Poch, while he is still available?
This must be one of the stupidest posts on here for a while. And topped off with a cocky green smilie too, makes it all the more idiotic.
Liverpool are going through an exceptional patch and it's skewing people's expectations about where we should be in relation to them.
They've been steadily getting better, year on year. They've actually benefited from not having knee-jerk reactions to relative failures and focusing on the positives.
There isn't much between the rest of the top teams in the PL.
Just like Manchester City have done, Liverpool will eventually drop their standards and the way to capitalize on that is by not making wholesale changes every few minutes. Let the other teams panic buy and enter the managerial merry-go-round.
If you take the first few weeks out of the equation, we have actually had a very decent start to the season. People need to be a little more analytical.
They've been steadily getting better, year on year. They've actually benefited from not having knee-jerk reactions to relative failures and focusing on the positives.
There isn't much between the rest of the top teams in the PL.
Just like Manchester City have done, Liverpool will eventually drop their standards and the way to capitalize on that is by not making wholesale changes every few minutes. Let the other teams panic buy and enter the managerial merry-go-round.
If you take the first few weeks out of the equation, we have actually had a very decent start to the season. People need to be a little more analytical.
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Except We are actually the 6th best team in the league player quality wise. I'm not going to bring up Liverpool and Man city because they are clearly better than us. But let's look at this comparison.
Our midfield trio is Mcctominay Fred and Pogba. Now compare this midfield to Chelsea who have Jorginho Kante and Mount in their midfield. Leceister have Maddison Tielemans and Ndidi. And if Tottenham want they can pick between any midfield three of Eriksen Alli Lo Celso Ndombele Sissoko Winks and Dier.
Look at the teams I mentioned. Each of them have at least two creators in their midfield. We have only Pogba.
Let's go to the attack. We have Martial Rashford and James. Now compare this attack to Leceister who have Vardy Perez and Barnes. Chelsea have Abraham Pulisic and William. And Tottenham have Kane Son and Moura.
Look at the teams again. Each of them in their attack have at least one experienced attacker and their striker is a proven consistent goal scorer and they have an actual right winger. Meanwhile our attackers with no natural right winger are all young and our striker just became a striker again after how many years on the left.
Our defense is better than some of the teams I've mention above but 6th is where the quality of our midfield and attack can take us. Add to the fact that our depth is much worse than the starters we have bar Greenwood. Add to the fact that most of the teams we've lost and drawn against are parking the bus and to break down those teams we needed one or two creators and the only one we had was injured. In the end being four points away from top 4 and two or one point away from top 6 seems befitting when you consider all this
I'm very much Ole out because he has no past record to back up any of this rebuild he is trying to accomplish so I really don't trust him and would prefer someone that has attempted it before and succeeded.
But my point is our squad is imbalanced as hell and to balance it to make it look like a top 4 side right this very moment we would need a proven striker, an actual right winger and another creator in midfield preferably a creative DM because the only DM we have right now is a declining, about to be sold Matic. You can create a starting 11 in your head with our current defenders, add any creative DM you like with Pogba and Mcctominay/Fred in midfield, add a poven striker and a right winger and suddenly this squad looks very competent and balanced.
You may think our squad is good enough for Top 4 but these players who have regularly started for us so far this season: Martial James Fred Mcctominay Lingard Lindelof Shaw and even De Gea that's 8 out of 11 players. Try to add all these players to Chelsea or City or Liverpool or Tottenham or Leceisters lineup, they would end up on the bench. Not because they aren't quality players but because they don't offer what is needed to win games as a top 4 side.
Lingard has been our AM and is not creative how does he want to displace Eriksen or Maddison or Mount, Martial has been our striker but has never scored up to 15 league goals in his life how does he want to displace Kane or Abraham or Vardy, Mcctominay and Fred are naturally box to box and both of them are only good at winning the ball back, how do they want to displace Ndidi or Kante or Jorginho or Tielemans. James is our right winger that's a left winger everybody knows he's supposed to be on the bench in any top 4 side. Shaw is our full back that isn't good at pushing forward which is essential in a top 4 side. Lindelof has been very error prone and would therefore struggle to displace any of the Cbs in top 4. De Gea also would be starting for some time but in the end would drop to the bench because of the silly mistakes.
Those are 8 players I mentioned that will not make the team in a top 4 side. 8 out of 11. Any coach will struggle to get this team to top 4 and right now 6th Is the best the quality of our players can get us and we need to accept that
For big clubs to be 6th it doesnt mean they're the 6th best club. It simply means what the feck happened to them.
If it's bayern, madrid, barcelona, juventus that's 6th heads will roll. Nowhere they'll claim we're the 6th best club in the league
Except We are actually the 6th best team in the league player quality wise. I'm not going to bring up Liverpool and Man city because they are clearly better than us. But let's look at this comparison.
Our midfield trio is Mcctominay Fred and Pogba. Now compare this midfield to Chelsea who have Jorginho Kante and Mount in their midfield. Leceister have Maddison Tielemans and Ndidi. And if Tottenham want they can pick between any midfield three of Eriksen Alli Lo Celso Ndombele Sissoko Winks and Dier.
Look at the teams I mentioned. Each of them have at least two creators in their midfield. We have only Pogba.
Let's go to the attack. We have Martial Rashford and James. Now compare this attack to Leceister who have Vardy Perez and Barnes. Chelsea have Abraham Pulisic and William. And Tottenham have Kane Son and Moura.
Look at the teams again. Each of them in their attack have at least one experienced attacker and their striker is a proven consistent goal scorer and they have an actual right winger. Meanwhile our attackers with no natural right winger are all young and our striker just became a striker again after how many years on the left.
Our defense is better than some of the teams I've mention above but 6th is where the quality of our midfield and attack can take us. Add to the fact that our depth is much worse than the starters we have bar Greenwood. Add to the fact that most of the teams we've lost and drawn against are parking the bus and to break down those teams we needed one or two creators and the only one we had was injured. In the end being four points away from top 4 and two or one point away from top 6 seems befitting when you consider all this
I'm very much Ole out because he has no past record to back up any of this rebuild he is trying to accomplish so I really don't trust him and would prefer someone that has attempted it before and succeeded.
But my point is our squad is imbalanced as hell and to balance it to make it look like a top 4 side right this very moment we would need a proven striker, an actual right winger and another creator in midfield preferably a creative DM because the only DM we have right now is a declining, about to be sold Matic. You can create a starting 11 in your head with our current defenders, add any creative DM you like with Pogba and Mcctominay/Fred in midfield, add a poven striker and a right winger and suddenly this squad looks very competent and balanced.
You may think our squad is good enough for Top 4 but these players who have regularly started for us so far this season: Martial James Fred Mcctominay Lingard Lindelof Shaw and even De Gea that's 8 out of 11 players. Try to add all these players to Chelsea or City or Liverpool or Tottenham or Leceisters lineup, they would end up on the bench. Not because they aren't quality players but because they don't offer what is needed to win games as a top 4 side.
Lingard has been our AM and is not creative how does he want to displace Eriksen or Maddison or Mount, Martial has been our striker but has never scored up to 15 league goals in his life how does he want to displace Kane or Abraham or Vardy, Mcctominay and Fred are naturally box to box and both of them are only good at winning the ball back, how do they want to displace Ndidi or Kante or Jorginho or Tielemans. James is our right winger that's a left winger everybody knows he's supposed to be on the bench in any top 4 side. Shaw is our full back that isn't good at pushing forward which is essential in a top 4 side. Lindelof has been very error prone and would therefore struggle to displace any of the Cbs in top 4. De Gea also would be starting for some time but in the end would drop to the bench because of the silly mistakes.
Those are 8 players I mentioned that will not make the team in a top 4 side. 8 out of 11. Any coach will struggle to get this team to top 4 and right now 6th Is the best the quality of our players can get us and we need to accept that
People have been saying what the feck happened to us before Ole came. Look at the squad we have now and compare it to the team we had under Ferguson; Van Perseie Beckham Ronaldo Evra Vidic Keane etc. What the feck truly happened to us.
The level of our players are so low compared to back then. Saying that we're the sixth best team is the harsh reality that I thought most people would have accepted. Most of our players are not good enough to be in the current top 4 team.
You can't say because we're a big club that means we shouldn't be Sixth. That's myopic. If you don't have the players to take you higher then you would remain low. Liverpool City Tottenham at some point were all once in not making top 4 because the players they had then were not good enough until they started getting the right players. And now they are big clubs.
This is the Premier League. It’s a lot more competitive than any of those above, and big clubs do struggle from time to time.
And ‘what the feck happened’ is the last 6 years of mismanagement.
So ole took a shit squad that finished 2nd. Gutted the deadwoods. Buy 3 brilliant purchases. But ended up with a squad that 6th best?
Which is it?
So it's normal to be 6th?
Try reading my post again.
So our predicament has nothing to do with installing ole as manager. It's the management fault?
I see it more as fixing the predicament caused by 6 years of terrible management, which I can see progress of.
Do you think the club has been well run for the last 6 years? Do you think we have recruited well? Had any sort of plan beyond the current season? Had any stability or consistency?
Here’s a clue; we haven’t, hence why we’re 6th.
We finished 2nd last two season and Mourinho called it his greatest ever accomplishment. It's means he overachieved with that squad since this is a manager that has one the Champions league before . Ole didn't take a shit squad that finished 2nd, he took a shit squad that was currently 6th when he was appointed.
He did buy 3 good purchases and ive mentioned before that 8 out of our starting 11 won't make any top 4 side in the PL 2 of those that were not mentioned are Maguire and AWB. James was always meant to be a back up.
In essence he bought players to fix the defense (even though it's still leaky) . But we still need midfielders and attackers to lift transcend us because we're still the 6th best team.
Let me ask you this question. Where would you rank the midfield of Lingard Fred and Mcctominay which is what we've been playing with. Where would you rank them with Leicester Tottenham Man City Liverpool and Chelsea's midfield.
Where would you rank our attack of Rashford Martial and James with those teams I've mentioned above?
It's very hard to be objective if you put it that way. Anything south you'll blame it on the past 6 years. Basically at this moment ole can do no wrong, even when we're 8th on the table you'd dust them off under past management.
I think we need to get away from claiming our manager made 3 good purchases as the club have clearly changed direction with regards to transfers, Ole has a vote and a veto and he's also aligned to the club's new method of medium-long term thinking with the right attitude to boot in regards to transfers. This is hopefully something to celebrate because going forward, a change of manager shouldn't mean 8 new different types of players are required to make the manager's methods work.
Oh, and the idea that 8 out of our starting 11 wouldn't make it into Leicester or Chelsea's first 11 is pure drivel @jamesjimmybyrondean
There's potential in the setup for sure. I full heartedly believe Solskjær, staff and above has a proper vision for how the club can climb up the ladder and become somewhat relevante as a top club again. But does Solskjær and staff has the tools to unlock the potential? I have my doubts. He has the dressing room, there's a good spirit about everything, atleast it appears so, and that's in his favour. He'll need 100% backing from Woodward over a couple of transfer windows and we'll need to recruit very, very wisely. As said, I'm not sure Solskjær actually has the tools or talent to execute the vision. There's a few very exciting coaches managing in the Bundesliga at the moment, granted everything is a gamble at the moment, but I feel the odds for succes could be higher if we looked elsewhere. I hope to be proved wrong and that I'll look back at this post in five years time and shrug at myself.
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Can't concur more.
However, our tax accountant CEO has done his no's & due to the expected loss of income/margin in this current Fyr, then there is less money available as the chuffer wasted it over 6 years. So Ole is the front man to the front man. Boys boys boys - re-build me arse should only take two years from here.
Oh and like many Scouserpool
And that's my point two years really not this Regime brainwashing via Ole.
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People are absolutely fixated on positions at the moment and not on the overall.
No doubt had some ropey results so far, with some excellent ones, but their is not real signs from the players that he is failing them as a manager. Normally when a manager close to being sacked its quite toxic from on the pitch to off it. He clearly still has the players behind him.
Reason I was mentioning the current position is not even half way thru the season. We are were we should be I think. We could easily finish top 4 and possibly a cup win as well as we are far from push overs in the big games. Another window coming up as well in the middle of a rebuild seems mental to me looking to change manager again because people cant control their emotions
No doubt had some ropey results so far, with some excellent ones, but their is not real signs from the players that he is failing them as a manager. Normally when a manager close to being sacked its quite toxic from on the pitch to off it. He clearly still has the players behind him.
Reason I was mentioning the current position is not even half way thru the season. We are were we should be I think. We could easily finish top 4 and possibly a cup win as well as we are far from push overs in the big games. Another window coming up as well in the middle of a rebuild seems mental to me looking to change manager again because people cant control their emotions
The players I mentioned that wouldn't start were Martial James Mcctominay Fred Lingard Shaw Lindelof and De Gea
Martial wouldn't start over Vardy and Tammy Abraham. James wouldn't sort over Perez and Willian. Mcctominay wouldn't start over Jorginho and Tielemans. Fred wouldn't start over Kante and Ndidi. Lingard wouldn't start over Maddison and Mount and Barkley. Shaw wouldn't start over Chilwell but might start over Emerson, Lindelof wouldn't start over Evan but might start over Zouma. I said De Gea would start at first but after he keeps making silly mistakes he will be benched by Schmeichel and Kepa(which has happened here already).
I can at least cut down the list and remove Shaw and De Gea but that's still 6 out of 11 players that have been starting for us this season that can't make a top 4 side. Or do you disagree?
Exactly. Even Fergie had his share of ”he is not good anymore” talk. There will always be those who criticize anybody and anything without taking lots of thing in consideration.
I’m curious who those 10 managers in Premier League is. And based on what. Please do write them here.
Why look at other teams? We should just look at ourself and go forward as a club and team. What She U does or not, or some other team, it don’t matter.
I think that Poch would take them higher than Pep and win Galaxy Champions League first day of his arrival.So Man City lost to Wolves today. It's a second loss in just this month to mid-table teams (Wolves and United).
Are people on Bluemoon asking for Pep's head? Clearly City is unable to break down lesser teams. Should they not sack Pep and hire Poch, while he is still available?
Joking aside. It puts things in some perspective that when Ole lose or draw against same team as some other highly rated managers there is different messure. Suddenly it is ok to talk about injuries and other things.
But they are also sacking league and Champions League managers without any normal explainations. I would not want to be that club if I am honest.
I am a fan of Ole and don't want him sacked, at least for a long time yet. However, can anyone explain to me what he has against players scoring hat tricks. If a player has two goals before the substitutions start then you can guarantee they will be among the first to be replaced. Managers often do this, but with Ole it seems to be a point of principle.
You certainly can’t ignore it as a major factor though.
Personally, I wrote off this season before it began in all honesty. The club has been an utter shambles, particularly so towards the end of Mourinhos reign, so I never expected much this season no matter who was in charge. Other top clubs wouldn’t accept 6th place true, but other top clubs wouldn’t have been so completely aimless over such a long period of time.
That said, Ole doesn’t have a permanent pass. Results will certainly need to come next season, if not this.
No, he took a squad that was languishing in 8th was it? On the way down, toxic atmosphere etc. He's got rid of a lot of the dross signed by previous managers and he's apparently rebuilding United behind the scenes.
Obvious point, but it gets ignored over and over again.
We aren't comparable to "top clubs" as a generic category, and certainly not if one includes Bayern, Barca and Real in that bracket. There's no conceivable reason whatsoever why those clubs should find themselves outside the top four in their respective leagues.
The not-ultra-negative take on Ole's united at this moment in time is that we are in transition - and that we are in transition in a league which is obviously far less forgiving than the Spanish or German counterparts for a moneybags team (which we are).
This isn't an apology for Ole as a manager (he could be crucially lacking in certain areas), it's simply a general truth: you can't mindlessly shout "we are Manchester United!" and expect us to be there or thereabouts at all times, it doesn't work like that. Money and resources don't guarantee a "there or thereabouts" status in England these days. You can ask Pep about that.
It's amazing how few changed from "we have midtable players" to "ole took over 2nd best squad"
Martial wouldn’t start over Tammy? feck me, I can be critical of Tony myself but there is some ridiculous overrating of Abraham on these forums.
So that’s 5 that wouldn’t get in Chelsea or Leicester, but hell let’s go with your OTT 6 (approx 50%)... you do realise that means 5 Leicester or Chelsea players (approx 50%) don’t get into our starting 11 right @jamesjimmybyrondean ?
As for the chavs, DDG, AWB, Maguire, Pogba, Rashford & Martial all start if Lampard had them.
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Martial wouldn’t start over Tammy? feck me, I can be critical of Tony myself but there is some ridiculous overrating of Abraham on these forums.
So that’s 5 that wouldn’t get in Chelsea or Leicester, but hell let’s go with your OTT 6 (approx 50%)... you do realise that means 5 Leicester or Chelsea players (approx 50%) don’t get into our starting 11 right @jamesjimmybyrondean ?
As for the chavs, DDG, AWB, Maguire, Pogba, Rashford & Martial all start if Lampard had them.
Comparing players in such a basic, linear manner is pointless and misunderstands what a football “team” actually is
Agreed, but when someone makes an idiotic post saying 8 out of our starting 11 wouldn't make it into either Chelsea or Leicester's side, you gotta at least show the post up for how idiotic it is.
Yeah. But one yardstick for mourinho and the extreme other for ole. All in the name of progress.
There's people wanting him to be sacked for finishing 2nd, miles behind city. Yet probably the very same people want him him to be given more time for finishing 6th.
Yeah. The previous manager was sacked for being 8th. Ole?
Solskjaer isn't an experienced manager, that's mainly why people write him off. Record against mid-table teams is bad, thats true. But outplaying those teams takes time AND better players! Buying too many players at once is neither the best solution. Tactics against the best teams have been good. I will judge Ole when he's got HIS team!
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Pep managed Barcelana B for a whopping season! He won the league yes but come on, its hardly a CV that screams qualified for Barcelona Manager.
ZZ had more experience, achieved more and was given the Real job.
Neither of Pep or ZZ had a record of building a side either but there you go.
Having no cv is better than getting relegated.
At least the previous one has more benefits of doubt.
And for all the bravadoes ole hasnt proved his cardif stint to be an outlier. We are midtablish under him.
What utter crap.
Have you any idea the state Cardiff were in at the time? They were pretty much relegated by the time he took over the club anyway.
When he took over on Jan 2nd 2014, Cardiff were 16th on 18 pts from 19 games.
The owner was causing all kinds of controversy, there was fan protests and members of the board caught up in legal battles.
But yeah, all Ole's fault.
It's never ole's fault.
Cardiff is shit
United is shit
120m isnt enough
Having martial isnt enough
Wait till he gets his first xi
120m spent. 8th after 20 games.
excuses, excuses, and more excuses
Jesus how old are you? Six?
Feckin hell you post like a complete an utter spoiled brat child!
Why is your thinking so binary? It's never all of one thing or the other, you don't need to be so absolute.
Your first comment above absolves everything other than Ole...he is the singular point of blame to you and nothing else. Which is in a single word, idiotic.
There clearly were mitigating factors at Cardiff and now at United.
At Cardiff I've listed them to you clearly and you have a feckin hissy fit in return. He walked into a club completely in turmoil, is that his fault?
With headlines like the story below - kind of gives you an idea what was going on at the club.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...owner-in-the-history-of-football-9019743.html
120m gets you a Jaoa Felix these days in football, your acting like Ole has had an embarrassment of riches last summer to spend.
Seriously, chill out, show some patience with him and stop posting like a stroppy child.
I was all time for Mourinho. I still think that have he got his way with new players we would be better off. I still like him and rate him as a top class. However, with things he did in the preseason and his behaviour under the season there was no way we could keep him.
If Norwich spent 120m on lets say Ronaldo. Do you think they would suddenly be top4? 120m is nothing anymore in todays market. You are overrating our players and I think you don't realy know what state the club was in when Ole took over. And what kind of job had to be done and still needs to be done.
I stand corrected.
Maybe ole is the real deal, he'll lead us to the promised land next year. Or will there be more excuses? He already written off this year anyway.
Maybe once we have 0 injuries, 500m spent, and a freak season where no one in the team made mistakes and no forwards missed a chance.
He alteady backtracks on most of his last season statement. But somehow 3 is the magical number. Chill out guys, ole got this.
More binary thinking.
I don't think I've seen many say Ole is the holy grail and certain to lead us to glory, there's uncertainty from all supporters. Weather they want to stick or get rid.
Reality is this, Man City have spent 500m on a defence alone and lost as many games as us this season.
The league is extremely competitive and aside from Liverpool & Leicester (up to recently) the best winning streak in the league was 3 wins on the bounce.
The club had one man rule...Everything in SAF.
We failed to modernize and other clubs over took us, same thing happened to Liverpool from the 70/80s.
Don't fire back to me this b*llicks about "but were United" cause its a moronic and means absolutely nothing when we previously went 26 years without a title.
Since the sale of Ronaldo the club has largely been mismanaged from all. Fergie lost his touch in judging players and invested poorly, Gill tucked his tail and hid the minute his golden goose was gone and the fecker still takes a pay day from the club offering little in return. Woodward was left high and dry, has made poor decisions, our scouting has been rubbish and generally over paid for flavor of the month players leaving countless managers to force square pegs into round holes.
Our problems were there PRE Ole and expecting quick fixes is not the way to go.