That Sensible Football Forum

No it isn't. That creates most of the problems because the muppets form into little muppety packs and then rampage around once promoted. If you leave them there you never get decent posters through inot the main forum because there is no decent conversation to participate in or they just give up anf go elsewhere.

The newbie is working fine as a filter for loons, WUMs and returnees at the moment and should be left alone. Even as is it filters out about 70-80% of people who sign up. Inevitably we get muppets etc through but it is doing a damn fine job.
 
I've read most posts on this thread, and I don't really agree with another football forum. I don't really see the point of creating another forum and moderate it heavily when the same moderation can be applied to the existing football forum.

The argument that heavy moderation will drop the traffic is overrated. There are still The United Forum, General, Entertainment and Transfer Forum that people can visit and post. The people who spends most times on football forums are supporters of other clubs anyway, which number are greatly outnumbered by United supporters here. And the fact is, Redcafe is one of the biggest Manchester United/Football forum in the Internet, and I doubt the popularity will diminished with a few bannings which I presumed will be justified.

Oh and I loved the newbie forum. It'll be our perfect defense if we make another forum invasion (Which I wonder why we haven't been done it in quite some time).

That being said, I can see Davo's point of a better place to talk about football. The level of muppetry there doesn't really appealing, especially for opposition supporters.
 
Ok, I shall tell, and there should be a post in the Admin forum that mirrors this, even not exactly.

The first thing that must be understood here is that I believe that having a newbie forum is part of the problem. They get too comfortable in there and thus too cocky. Now, I referencing from history here in that at one time, when you Mickeyredlad for example joined this forum, the newbie did not exist. It's not that the site didn't have its fair share of idiots back then, it did, but the majority were controlled by the users themselves. Examples of this are quite clear for those that remember those days, but what in general happened was that as soon as a new poster came along and started acting the goat, he/she were basically mobbed by the rest of the membership either A) Coaxing them never to post again, B) changing their tune and becoming sensible, C) getting worse and thus banned. This was self regulation. One of the wonderful things about it was that idiots were visible a mile off, and required very little work on the part of the moderating team to deal with. They stuck out like sore thumbs. Therefore, my premise is that the newbie must be destroyed, removed, etc. and self regulation restored in order for there being any chance of sensible football discussion every again. Regarding moderator work, apart from WUMs and invasions (which will be dealt with) this actually will reduce moderator work rather than increase it.

Those not willing to accept that premise or the solutions to problems created by the removal of the newbie can stop reading now.

Questions now arise in regards to WUMs and invasions. So, we will deal with those quite simply.

This forum software this board currently runs on is not perfect, but it has several interesting features that can be used to stop the likes of Slabber and his chums as well as forum invasions. I will be frank about this in that I always enjoyed the banter with new members from other teams around Europe when it came to European matches, and it's sad that is and seemingly has to be lost, but if a buffer is required, a buffer shall be proposed, and one that requires far less effort on the part of the moderators than the current newbie system does.

Firstly it is necessary to understand the mindset of the modern WUM.

A) They are only out to cause havoc.
B) They want to cause free havoc now.
C) They have little patience.

Raoul when he was head honcho around here, basically because Niall fecked off to Outer Mongolia or somewhere for years, had a way of controlling the membership. What he used to do was close the forum to new members for specific time windows (normall a month if I remember correctly). Anyone joining during those windows would not have immediate access to the site, but rather appear on a list. Once a month (if that was what it was), Raoul would look through and either approve or deny membership. Many forums still do this. It is however a little task intensive, but with enough moderators, is it really difficult to have one per day scour the list of new applications for that day to check against possible known weirdos? Possibly, possibly not, I think not.

However, I don't wan to cause moderator work, I want to get rid of it as much as possible in this regard. So, the software should be used.

A) What you first do is give guests a maximum of 20 thread views per cookie. Not forum views, thread views. After this, they are either obliged to join, or clear their cookies to get another 20 views. What this does is deter total nutters straight away, too difficult fanny around and losing all those saved passwords to dodgy sites. It also encourages people to join and identify themselves. It also helps alleviate matchday bandwidth problems.

B) Upon joining the forum, people are required to wait 2 weeks (or even a month) before they can post - but can view the forum without the thread viewing limit that guests will have. This removes site invasion possibilities and also will deter most WUMs, who have little patience, and will go on to attack other sites. Some may still be waiting, but they do this in the newbie in any case.

C) After the specified time period, these new waiting members are transfered into a "Newbie" user group, but without the newbie forums. They get access to the entire site, but are restricted. Basically, they cannot start new threads until they have 100 posts, and they cannot post more than ten posts per day (24 hours). They also cannot post images or other external links, have no PMs, etc. A layered approach will be used in that the more posts they make, the more access they have to the site facilities. For example, 200 posts yo post a link, 500 posts to post an image, whatever. This is done my moving them through several different groups until they get to "Full Member". Obviously in this layered approach, the higher the level, the more posts they can make within the specified time frame.

D) Any of these new users that do not make more than 5 posts in their first week are deleted automatically. Anyone not posting 5 posts per week in these lower groups get put down to the group below, finally ending in deletion.

E) Infraction and reputation points are removed in their current form, rather serving to move people not from newbie to full member, but rather up and down the ladder of layered usergroups.

What this does, is provide a buffer and requires very little moderator input. What you have at the end of the day is self regulation of posters that make it to full member, yet at the same time, server level controls on what they can and cannot do when they still are not full members.

This is only a basic overview and would need the details fleshing out, but it is far fairer to all.
 
I stopped reading when you said because the average newbie gets out of that forum so fast that they don't have time to form the comfort cliques that you think are a problem.
 
It's not got anything to do with the newbies. More to do with the fact the net is widely accessible to kids. Which also explains the amount txt tlk lolz!
 
I stopped reading when you said because the average newbie gets out of that forum so fast that they don't have time to form the comfort cliques that you think are a problem.

No they didn't! And if they now do, that in itself that is a problem that other parts would address if you could actually be arsed to read further. Flushing newbies through the system as quickly as possible only exacerbates the problem under the current system. If you had been bothered to even try to take on the argument, you will find that we now have a totally different dynamic to what was in the times when Raoul had his previous system.

Well, you stopped reading, and this is why you have the problem you do on your hands. You have always been one of the worst on this level, never one to accept the problem, never one to try and solve it. Always the status quo for you. Well, there is a problem and there has been one for years, and it gets worse, and you have been at the helm of this ship throughout that length of time.
 
No they didn't! And if they now do, that in itself that is a problem that other parts would address if you could actually be arsed to read further. Flushing newbies through the system as quickly as possible only exacerbates the problem under the current system. If you had been bothered to even try to take on the argument, you will find that we now have a totally different dynamic to what was in the times when Raoul had his previous system.

Well, you stopped reading, and this is why you have the problem you do on your hands. You have always been one of the worst on this level, never one to accept the problem, never one to try and solve it. Always the status quo for you. Well, there is a problem and there has been one for years, and it gets worse, and you have been at the helm of this ship throughout that length of time.

I could be arsed to read further but you instructed me not to. So I can't comment on the rest of your post since I stopped reading.

I'm therefore not sure what you mean by Raoul's previous "system" but if you mean turning registrations off for periods of time that is a silly non-solution.

As for "the problem" I accept that there is one but I don't think your solutions, which amounted to little more than random and irrational bannings of people who happened to piss you off, were the holy grail.
 
Weaste's quite offtrack with his analysis

If you fellas really feel about things going downhill...the best way to set things straight is make a huge dash at threads for a few weeks/month, get stuck in and be ruthless and eliminate all the so-called nutters out. Storm the Bastille out. There are a few who would get stuck in and persist on talking bollocks for the heck of it and restoring their e-pride but they would be on a very bare minimum as compared to the current lot. I think someone suggested this somewhere before...

I personally do not pay much heed to the problems. Largely cos I no longer hang around the FF and United forum much and read every thread, partly for the reasons being stated here
 
Sack the mods then promote weaste.

Things should go back to how they were, even the old davo was mildly funny. Sometimes!!

I remember back in the day, brill.

One thing i didnt like was when i registered it took ages in the end i had to get 26 may1999 to have a word.
 
I could be arsed to read further but you instructed me not to. So I can't comment on the rest of your post since I stopped reading.

I'm therefore not sure what you mean by Raoul's previous "system" but if you mean turning registrations off for periods of time that is a silly non-solution.

As for "the problem" I accept that there is one but I don't think your solutions, which amounted to little more than random and irrational bannings of people who happened to piss you off, were the holy grail.

You're so facetious it's beyond belief.

I'm not criticising any of the moderator or admin staff's work or dedication, I will however criticise dinosaurs like yourself who see that something is wrong yet do nothing about it apart from tinker around the edges. As I said, status quo. And how do any of my solutions have anything to do with mass bannings? Either you can't read, are a total facetious cnut, or are sat there with huge blinkers on. Possibly a mix of the three.

As for bannings, anyone that cannot string two paragraphs together IMO have no need to be here and should be banned. It's called quality control.

Raoul's working solution did not turn off registrations, it turned off immediate access. And it worked, unlike the newbie. It also served this site well before you even had a sniff at moderatorship.

As I said, you have been at the helm of this "ship" at least as long as the newbie has existed. You along with GB are also the only two of what I would call "active" admins. The responsibility lies on your mat.
 
That system just isn't workable Weaste.

We'd basically get no new members, as they'd get confused and irritated by their limitations (even more so than the newbie), and the retards who did perservere would be utterly cretinous - like United-Gerilla.

Most people don't agree with you that the newbie somehow is the problem. Is everyone else blind to the light?

You talk about the 'status quo', but you fail to see that returning to the old days won't restore the site, because the internet has moved on from its status quo five years ago.

There are flocks more children and retards than ever before on the net, and they 'hunt' in packs. We've got to respond in kind, not arse about with overcomplicated user profiles or Back Slapping Rooms.
 
That system just isn't workable Weaste.

We'd basically get no new members, as they'd get confused and irritated by their limitations (even more so than the newbie), and the retards who did perservere would be utterly cretinous - like United-Gerilla.

Most people don't agree with you that the newbie somehow is the problem. Is everyone else blind to the light?

You talk about the 'status quo', but you fail to see that returning to the old days won't restore the site, because the internet has moved on from its status quo five years ago.

There are flocks more children and retards than ever before on the net, and they 'hunt' in packs. We've got to respond in kind, not arse about with overcomplicated user profiles or Back Slapping Rooms.

I disagree with Weaste over the newbies, I think it can be highly effective as a filter. But I'm with him 100% with his assertion that so far it has only been tinkering around the edges of a clear and identified problem, that of the lack of quality in the forums. Yes perhaps the measures to get rid of wankers (i.e who WUM, or make offensive needless comments) might be fine. But there isn't anything yet that eliminates those who every other post, in the footy forums, post a smiley on its own, or makes a 3 word comment. Harsh, but they add nothing, they should either be told in no uncertain terms to improve, or told to find a site more suitible for their contribution. Obviously I'm not privy to what the mods say to people by PM behind the scenes, but it's patently obvious that whatever goes on, it isn't working

Now for all that, people have to stop fecking whinging and get off their backsides. If all the people who are moaning actually regularly contributed and made expansive points, like I have tried to, it will automatically improve the forums. It drowns out those with nothing to say. But I've operated heavily in the forums these last few days especially, and bar the odd invidual and the odd thread, I'm yet to see it. Frankly, it makes me believe that those calling for a seperate 'elite' thread think they are better than other posters when in fact they're not, and perhaps are even part of the problem
 
That system just isn't workable Weaste.

We'd basically get no new members, as they'd get confused and irritated by their limitations (even more so than the newbie), and the retards who did perservere would be utterly cretinous - like United-Gerilla.

How the hell did we ever get any members in the bloody first place then? You used to have to wait.

As for limitations, how do they become confusing? "Shit, I can't post images, I'm confused!", is that the type of response you are expecting?
 
Most people don't agree with you that the newbie somehow is the problem. Is everyone else blind to the light?

It doesn't take much processing power to realise that before the forum software was introduced, and along with it a newbie system, that it used to work like a charm. Afterwards it worked like my great grandfather does, mainly feeding trees.
 
I disagree with Weaste over the newbies, I think it can be highly effective as a filter. But I'm with him 100% with his assertion that so far it has only been tinkering around the edges of a clear and identified problem, that of the lack of quality in the forums. Yes perhaps the measures to get rid of wankers (i.e who WUM, or make offensive needless comments) might be fine. But there isn't anything yet that eliminates those who every other post, in the footy forums, post a smiley on its own, or makes a 3 word comment. Harsh, but they add nothing, they should either be told in no uncertain terms to improve, or told to find a site more suitible for their contribution. Obviously I'm not privy to what the mods say to people by PM behind the scenes, but it's patently obvious that whatever goes on, it isn't working

Now for all that, people have to stop fecking whinging and get off their backsides. If all the people who are moaning actually regularly contributed and made expansive points, like I have tried to, it will automatically improve the forums. It drowns out those with nothing to say. But I've operated heavily in the forums these last few days especially, and bar the odd invidual and the odd thread, I'm yet to see it. Frankly, it makes me believe that those calling for a seperate 'elite' thread think they are better than other posters when in fact they're not, and perhaps are even part of the problem

I agree about the elitists.
 
It doesn't take much processing power to realise that before the forum software was introduced, and along with it a newbie system, that it used to work like a charm. Afterwards it worked like my great grandfather does, mainly feeding trees.

Once again.

You believe the internet is still in a 2001 status quo.

It isn't.
 
We disagree.

It massively overcomplicates things without an appreciable benefit, because all the retards have to do is hold on for 100 posts.
 
Weaste, we've debated this to death...

The bossman want's the newbie system to stay, along with all senior admins, including Raoul.
 
You're so facetious it's beyond belief.

I'm not criticising any of the moderator or admin staff's work or dedication, I will however criticise dinosaurs like yourself who see that something is wrong yet do nothing about it apart from tinker around the edges. As I said, status quo. And how do any of my solutions have anything to do with mass bannings? Either you can't read, are a total facetious cnut, or are sat there with huge blinkers on. Possibly a mix of the three.

As for bannings, anyone that cannot string two paragraphs together IMO have no need to be here and should be banned. It's called quality control.

Raoul's working solution did not turn off registrations, it turned off immediate access. And it worked, unlike the newbie. It also served this site well before you even had a sniff at moderatorship.

As I said, you have been at the helm of this "ship" at least as long as the newbie has existed. You along with GB are also the only two of what I would call "active" admins. The responsibility lies on your mat.

I agree that the responsibility is mine (at least collectively) although Sultan is probably the most active admin in terms of bannings and filtering new registrations for example. I have been a mod for about 5 years now and that was way before the newbie.

I agree that things need to change, although perhaps not as much as you do, but I disagree with you on abolishing the newbie. It would return to the chaos of invasions that resulted in it's introduction especially since we now have far far more people resistering per day/week than we did before the newbie existed.

I agree with you about newbies forming muppety cliques in there and that is why they now spend far less time on there before being promoted. However a good 70-80% never get out of the newbies getting banned for being returnees/WUM's or giving up trying to make 15 decent posts that get repped. we also cull all newbies who don't confirm their registration within 30 days and any who don't log in for 60 days. All in all it is now doing its job far far better than it was when you were an admin. It doesn't really stop well meaning muppets but they can get sorted out by the mods and admins in the main forum or preferably by peer pressure etc.

The turning off registrations is a non starter because a) we need the new registrations, b) it was an idiosyncratic and piecemeal solution that depended on a manual process which is far from ideal, c) decent posters won't necessarily come back when registrations are open at some indeterminate time in the future and d) Niall doesn't want to do that.

The moderating may not meet with your approval but it has got much stricter and I'm going to keep an eye on the matchday forum today and turf out those who can't behave. We have made some of the newbie mods football forum mods so they will be able to help out as well. I don't however think that outright banning of people who "cannot string two paragraphs together" is an answer because it would be so arbitrary and hard to do with an consistency. Which would result in mass whinging and fuss which doesn't help the site. Infractions and bannings need to be seen to be fair and consistent and they wouldn't be under such a harsh regime. I'm also sure that Niall wouldn't want such a dictatorial hardline approach.

All in all I think it is going very well and the amount of muppetry is on the decline and the real idiots are gradually being banned or infracted towards a ban.

Once the other project goes live I think we will see an significant increase in the quality of posting. I think that the move to being a forum only unintentionally helped the muppet flood get a foot hold and the new project might well help reverse the trend.
 
I won't have a bad word said about United Guerilla, he'd be a caf legend if he was promoted :smirk:

Heres another reason self regulation wont work anymore Weaste. There are far too many posters and within that group you get people who think the likes of United-Guerilla,Revelz,Guvnorgaz etc are hilarious and shouldnt be canned. Whereas the rest think they are/were fecking idiots. Self regulation does not work under those circumstances (especially with the amount of posters compared to the old days). It needs a e-dictatorship to a degree, telling people what is and what isnt acceptable as most posters have different views on these levels too.

As for the newbie, I believe it does a good job especially with the other mods on board. They pretty much all give opinions on posters who should or shouldnt be promoted, then IP checks are performed. Loads are blocked but from time to time a 'rogue' may get through, but they are found out in the end up.

I dont agree with having an extra football forum either, it will just make the other one redundant. Its time those people who say they dont post in there anymore took their territory back rather than being pussies and running away from it. Its not THAT bad.
 
Heres another reason self regulation wont work anymore Weaste. There are far too many posters and within that group you get people who think the likes of United-Guerilla,Revelz,Guvnorgaz etc are hilarious and shouldnt be canned. Whereas the rest think they are/were fecking idiots. Self regulation does not work under those circumstances (especially with the amount of posters compared to the old days). It needs a e-dictatorship to a degree, telling people what is and what isnt acceptable as most posters have different views on these levels too.

As for the newbie, I believe it does a good job especially with the other mods on board. They pretty much all give opinions on posters who should or shouldnt be promoted, then IP checks are performed. Loads are blocked but from time to time a 'rogue' may get through, but they are found out in the end up.

I dont agree with having an extra football forum either, it will just make the other one redundant. Its time those people who say they dont post in there anymore took their territory back rather than being pussies and running away from it. Its not THAT bad.

I was being sarcastic, GB. He'd last about 5 minutes in the main forums.
 
We are both suffering and reaping the benefits of globalisation of football and the internet. Manchester United along with other popular teams are now a popular global culture – it’s with us, and it’s an unstoppable juggernaut, unless this forum becomes private there is little we can do but be more vigilant in our modding.

Just as the Premiership now attracts players from all corners of the globe, more and more of our members are now foreign based, this cross section of members bring along different debating techniques and the inevitable language issues which are absolutely impossible to moderate - I personally think these cross cultural mix of posters is what makes the caf unique and tick.

The clique "back in the old days the caf was great" is mute. There are many on here who are completely addicted to the caf - how many times have those in this very thread made promises to spend less time on here yet keep coming back for more? can't be that bad eh!

Davo's threads been a great eye opener, we are mulling ideas, implementing different modes of moderating and now have a great team on board who will hopefully take this forum further to make our experience and time spent on here better.

What I suggest, and also GB/Brad and a few others suggested a few posts back is we ourselves start making more contribution to football related forums to increase the quality of debates, those willing will learn and become the future of the caf, the muppets will be drowned out and the worst will be turfed out...
 
What this place nees is a mod who aint scared to ban a rival fan just incase it looks like he might be discriminating against him/her!

Far to many rivals come on here and take the piss and get away with it.

I think some newbies who get promoted come up and make the mistake of going head to head with the wrong rival fan and getting punnished for it. In the the real world they would be respected for sticking up for your team or shouting down some gobby scouse cnut who happens to throw sly little digs at every chance they get.

Good thread.
 
WTF are you on about?

We have got rid of Gillespie and DJS recent because they add feck all.

And nobody is punished for "sticking up for their club". They might be punished for being embarrassing feckwits who lose it when they can't make a coherent argument. Having said that if we punished people for being embarrassing feckwits we would be very busy indeed.
 
What this place nees is a mod who aint scared to ban a rival fan just incase it looks like he might be discriminating against him/her!

Far to many rivals come on here and take the piss and get away with it.

I think some newbies who get promoted come up and make the mistake of going head to head with the wrong rival fan and getting punnished for it. In the the real world they would be respected for sticking up for your team or shouting down some gobby scouse cnut who happens to throw sly little digs at every chance they get.

Good thread.

We're working on getting rid of or punishing retards of all stripes.

Perhaps in the past some have gotten a free ride. No more.

Hence the reason why all the opposition supporters are screaming like absolute bloody murder at my modship.

Banter from anyone is welcome and encouraged. Sheer muppetry regardless of your club is not.

We're not afraid to make decisions - hence Gillespie, LFC2IDIE and DJS.