the election was my favourite episode
that was still pretty good though, albeit a bit predictable in the way it all played out
that was still pretty good though, albeit a bit predictable in the way it all played out
Television Succession
- Thread starter cyberman
- Start date
Thought it was very well done.
I like the way the whole series depends on Shiv being pregnant, and the way that information is hinted at, and slowly leaked. That is the crucial detail IMO. The earlier scene where she showed herself to be vulnerable and wanting to reconcile with Tom because of the baby was key to understanding this. In the end I think she felt she couldn't go against the baby's father, and especially not for Kendall who she basically hates and always wants to prove herself above. Also the involvement of the mother in that episode cast another shadow on Shiv's thinking. It made complete sense to me and was cleverly done.
I like the way the whole series depends on Shiv being pregnant, and the way that information is hinted at, and slowly leaked. That is the crucial detail IMO. The earlier scene where she showed herself to be vulnerable and wanting to reconcile with Tom because of the baby was key to understanding this. In the end I think she felt she couldn't go against the baby's father, and especially not for Kendall who she basically hates and always wants to prove herself above. Also the involvement of the mother in that episode cast another shadow on Shiv's thinking. It made complete sense to me and was cleverly done.
I thought it was both. Roman IMO seemed to me to be pressing himself into his shoulder as much as Ken was pulling him.
Wow
I think both Karl and Frank were always pro cashing out and moving on if the company changed hands and they didn’t need to be babysitters.
The clip of Logan being so relaxed with the inner circle in the tape Connor plays makes the point for me. They have their own banter, their own inside jokes and they feel secure with what they are doing when left in a room by themselves. Even Connor is in there and yet everyone seems so exasperated, frustrated and angry when around the other three kids.
They are not free though, at least Kendall isn't. The seat is poison but the way they ended it is not definitive because what's stopping Kendall or Roman or Shiv from trying to buyout Waystar from Lukas in the future?
Their stories did not end conclusively. If Kendall jumps off that bridge at least it's closure because it concludes the tragic tale of the unworthy successor.
The cast of the show had said they were informed after the shooting that there will be no further seasons and I think it shows because a lot of plots were left unaddressed.
The point was never about who would be CEO but completing the journeys of all these characters and I don't know, it doesn't seem a satisfying end to the journey for me. But yes I do appreciate there will always be someone not happy with an ending, so fair play to the writers and Jesse if that's how they wanted to end.
One of the best shows I've seen in recent times but just short of being one of the all time greats in my book.
I hated it aswell. What's annoying is I kind of saw the Tom thing after Karl tore him a new one in Episode 4, ( I actually expected the document Frank found to say Tom), I just thought they surely wouldn't be this lazy and do a GoT S8 ending.
As tricky as endings are, Season 4 was just unnecessary if the ending was to be Tom. I mean nothing new was added character wise to the Logan kids.
The whole season ended up being a poor setup of a silly unnecessary plot twist of CEO Tom.
Waystar Royco was already Sold in Season 3, the kids lost and were still pieces of sh#te, Tom the successor made sense then especially aftet the betreyal, so what was the point of Season 4?
They didn't need the cheap plot twist deviating from their brilliant writting.
I agree actually. It would have been a pretty cool (Godfather esque) ending if it ended with S3 and Shiv realising that Tom betrayed her to Logan. Her seeing into the door of them shaking hands and then the door shuts etc.
I’d have liked it a lot more ambiguous.
I think the best possible ending would have been the ending of S2 personally. That Logan smirk sort of implying that he thinks Ken is ready by becoming the “killer” that he wanted to succeed him.
They were informed during the read through of the last episode. It was never going to be conclusive and they were never going to answer everything. That's the kind of storytelling Succession has always done. I'm surprised we even learned about Rose there at the end.
I don't think Succession is a show that need's to spell out the ending. It was a bit like the Sopranos. With Kendall we can assume he will either kill himself directly or through drugs, Roman is having panic attacks and we see him turn to alcohol and Shiv retreated into a marriage that only exists on paper and a role - just someone's wife - that we already know will make her miserable.
They have all stepped into their own, gilded, version of purgatory and so sufficient closure in the sense that I don't see how they could have continued from here. So in that way it's (indirectly) clear that the story has been told.
They have all stepped into their own, gilded, version of purgatory and so sufficient closure in the sense that I don't see how they could have continued from here. So in that way it's (indirectly) clear that the story has been told.
Lukas’ final line was gold, “Jesus and the disciples, even Judas is here!”. 
Kendall is free of his ex-wife and children, his siblings, his loyal assistant, his reputation, his power, and his only reason to live.
Tom only gained from the perspective of Tom, and likely only in the short term. So I'm not specifically sure he won, other than he ended the show reasonably happy, but he's not in a position Ken/Roman at least, particularly wanted, and Shiv only wanted out of desperation.
And isn't he only in that position due to the President elect asking for specifics, who's not actually President elect... so it's gonna be even shorter term that expected anyway. I mean I'd love to fail upwards like Tom, not gonna lie... but I wouldn't want to be where he is if I was one of the siblings, even Shiv, but she's shameless.
Matsson "won".
And isn't he only in that position due to the President elect asking for specifics, who's not actually President elect... so it's gonna be even shorter term that expected anyway. I mean I'd love to fail upwards like Tom, not gonna lie... but I wouldn't want to be where he is if I was one of the siblings, even Shiv, but she's shameless.
Matsson "won".
It would've been brilliant if Kendall just walked into the sea at the end.
Season 2 was just brilliant, especially since the whole show was all about Logan's expediency and his succession, so you are very right, that would have made for a good ending.
S4 ruined it for me, like GoT I might struggle to rewatch it
Tom won because he's just upper-middle class guy who went to college. For him to end up as the CEO of a major corporation is a big deal and opens many doors, plus the fact that the company is no longer owned by Logan Roy means he can shake off the perception that he's just some nepotism hire.
Good point. Tom will presumably get tossed aside as and when it suits Matsson.
Shiv would have been more secure with her brothers in terms of being ‘involved’
Conceptually, the ending is fine: the siblings can keep the company but won't, because their father's habit of pitting them against each other is something they can never shake off. That's fine and well and good.
The problem is in the execution, in wanting to make it a twist. We get scenes like Shiv being betrayed by Mattson and then being angry when finding out about Tom being the CEO, we get scenes like the siblings having a nice time with each other, holding their hands over their father's video, etc. so that Shiv's betrayal can play as a twist. But it comes at the expense of undermining her motivations; it is less believable that she would rationally make this decision. It's still believable that she might make it emotionally, but then we are left with the climax of the series being a spontanous emotional reaction by someone, which is not super satisfying.
The problem is in the execution, in wanting to make it a twist. We get scenes like Shiv being betrayed by Mattson and then being angry when finding out about Tom being the CEO, we get scenes like the siblings having a nice time with each other, holding their hands over their father's video, etc. so that Shiv's betrayal can play as a twist. But it comes at the expense of undermining her motivations; it is less believable that she would rationally make this decision. It's still believable that she might make it emotionally, but then we are left with the climax of the series being a spontanous emotional reaction by someone, which is not super satisfying.
Tom not going to Logan’s funeral was the moment. I remember thinking to myself that was significant.
Shiv didn't act out of rational deliberations, she burned her family, so going back to Tom and Mattson is the only thing she has left. And Tom started the show has someone's husband and now he himself is a someone. He has won either way. Matsson didn't pick him, because he needed something specific from him either, he picked him, because he's a loyal and effective servant, who knows his place. So it's not like he will necessarily get tossed aside the next minute.
Yeah I get all that, but he's essentially competing in a different ballgame to the others, so it's hard to claim he won... he's like Hugo. Willing to bend to his owner, and doesn't overly care who his owner is as long as he's coming out fine. The rest of it would be leaked anyway, so his credibility would be hurt... but that's just speculation, but highly likely given they strongly hinted at the election being overturned. There's actually more plot for a fifth season outside of just using the siblings than there's been for a while to be fair
I would say Tom won because he was never going higher than this. IIRC being CEO (as a proxy of Shiv) was his big objective in the first season.
I think what Shiv did was rational in that it was the best option for her. She realised it and it made her emotional.
Matsson has no loyalty to Tom. He is just being used in the same way he used Shiv, for his own self interest. Once that’s over he’ll probably bin him too.
Shiv committed herself to being the person she despised the most - her mother.
In what way was it a good option? Tom and Mattson both backstabbed her in this very episode. She has no job at the company and can go back to political consulting now. Meanwhile Ken offered her ATN.
And in what way is Tom being used? Shiv was used to get the deal over the line, Tom was hired after it got over the line.
pretty sure that “cnut is as cnut does” line is what fecked it for him
It was the best of the shit options for her.
I'd say being CEO of a leading news network is better than having nothing.
Who knows if that would have even happened. She probably feared being marginalised by her brothers.
Just finished watching. I don’t have any specific issue with the ending, no one acted out of character and there weren’t rogue plot lines that didn’t fit anywhere, but I found the whole final season a bit underwhelming for some reason and the finale didn’t bring it all together the way the final episodes in 2 and 3 felt like they did.
I might need to give it some time and then rewatch the final episode to see if I get a stronger sense of satisfaction.
I might need to give it some time and then rewatch the final episode to see if I get a stronger sense of satisfaction.
It was also a very logical decision by her though, going by her motivations.
I thought the scene with her and her brothers at their mum's house where she was gloating about winning was pretty illustrating. This way she ends up on the winning side, even if it's not in the position she originally wanted.
The scene where she was asking Tom for a real relationship was also pretty relevant in my opinion. Tom seems to be holding the cards in terms of their relationship but he was then reliant on her vote to become CEO and now he owes her one, so again she comes out on top.
The thing is, if Shiv has a seat the board of Waystar, that's power. She can use that against Kendall if she wants. He's not a divine king. It is perfectly rational for her to vote against the deal.
It's just that this does not give us any closure.
It's just that this does not give us any closure.
I think it was more how he acted upon sitting in Logan's chair and acting all arrogant even though the job wasn't done yet, they still hadn't stopped the sale. They cut to Shiv's face the moment he put his feet on the table and you knew then she was gonna stab him.
Tom's being used because he's a face that works for transition and fits the bill for Menckens wishes for an American involved. He's also happy to sit there and allow someone to essentially drool about sleeping with his wife right in front of him, I mean Shiv set that test up by telling Matsson about him and his willingness to do whatever, but he followed it up by passing the test.
I personally think Matsson would want to cut his ties completely the second he can. But maybe not given Tom is likely to obey any order thrown his way to the exact detail, as mentioned above, he knows this is his ceiling. So sure, maybe let's not speculatively write him off so quickly
Well put. If they wanted to show the sibs as unworthy successors who would betray each other, fair enough, but the way it was done did not seem fitting to me.
To me, here is where the show finally suffers from its habit of always returning to the status quo. No matter what these people did to each other, it never truly held. They always ended up back in each other's orbit and somehow willing to let it go. So that's how we understand their dynamic.
If you want to finally blow it all up for good, it feels like you need something stronger than what we got: a split-second, visceral decision.
I'd compare it to S3 finale. Logan viciously betrays his kids, but he's also hurt that they've betrayed him. He's disappointed at their poor attempt to best him. He can simultaneously come across as someone who'd feck over his kids because he can, and someone who thinks he's doing what's best for them. We don't get that from the climax of this episode. It's just pure venom and disdain.
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I mean, that's on him. Anyway, he'll be having brunch with Shiv and Roman in a week and he'll still have Stewy to have sex with when they're on molly.
Nah CEO of ATN was far better than being a professional wife. However true to form she probably believes she can scheme her way from the sidelines to success rather than simply putting the work in.
Great show but pretty directionless for most of the last season
Shiv has spent the entire season wanting this deal to go through so if anything her changing her mind was a momentary blip because her ego got hurt but she was never gonna let Kendal have it. And people who act like she somehow uniquely betrayed him as if Kendal didnt spend the entire season going behind her back.
I dont think they want you to think it's finally blown up for good. Yea they no longer have control of the company blabla, there's a reason some of the actors thought it wasn't ending at the final read through cause there's always stuff that can still happen, and for it to continue. And that's how this family is, they hurt each other and next week they're having brunch and pretend nothing happened.