Stars and Reserves Draft - Winner: Gio

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
As attacking CMs, neither Gerrard nor Lampard would even breach Top 10 in all time list. The likes of Didi, Neeskens. Robson, Tigana, Breitner, Schuster, Masopust etc are at least a level if not two above them. Do the likes of Xavi, Falcao, Suarez also fit in as No.8?
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oneniltothearsenal said:
Neither one fits into possession or one-touch attacking sides for me. They both lack agility and close control and for a lot of tactics those traits are extremely important in that role. For instance, besides the big names there are a lot of tactics I'd rather have a David Silva, prime Cesc or a Gerson type. Plus they lack the strength and power to outmuscle the top tier B2Bs like Robson and Davids. I feel players like Vieira and Keane (along with all the ones Edgar mentioned) fit into a much wider range of tactics and player combos than Lampard and Gerrard.
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Most of these guys are different types of players - Davids, Didi, Silva, Keane, Vieira, Tigana and Schuster, Xavi. From the above, box-to-box 8s which are a class above would be Falcao, Neeskens and Breitner. Throw Matthaus in too. Other fanbases will place Robson and Ballack in a similar tier as Gerrard and Lampard.
 
MJJ said:
Gerrard at another club would have won a lot more, can't hold it against him just as its not held against robson.

Ballack was the perennial runner up.
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Gerrard was perennial bottler for the NT. Ballack was their most important player in 02' WC alongside Kahn and shot them to a WC final. Did well for Leverkusen (lesser team Liverpool), Chelsea and Bayern. Ballack is also the better technical player, better goalscorer, better header of the ball and better passer of the two. Gerrard is faster and probably that's the only advantage I'd have over Ballack.

@Ecstatic GMT ;)
 
Gio said:
Most of these guys are different types of players - Davids, Didi, Silva, Keane, Vieira, Tigana and Schuster, Xavi. From the above, box-to-box 8s which are a class above would be Falcao, Neeskens and Breitner. Throw Matthaus in too. Other fanbases will place Robson and Ballack in a similar tier as Gerrard and Lampard.
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Well that's why I was talking about tactics and player combinations. Its why players whose careers people might not rate as high like Silva or Fabregas might still be the better fit in a wider variety of tactics. For Lampard the only tactic I'd really want him would be a Mourinho-esque 451 type of set-up. Any other tactic and there are just a dozen or two dozen B2B I'd rather have precisely because I want a different skill set than what lampard can offer. Lampard just excels in a narrower range of tactics than other players that fill the B2B role so even if they are different types of players they are still more often preferred for me.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Well that's why I was talking about tactics and player combinations. Its why players whose careers people might not rate as high like Silva or Fabregas might still be the better fit in a wider variety of tactics. For Lampard the only tactic I'd really want him would be a Mourinho-esque 451 type of set-up. Any other tactic and there are just a dozen or two dozen B2B I'd rather have precisely because I want a different skill set than what lampard can offer. Lampard just excels in a narrower range of tactics than other players that fill the B2B role so even if they are different types of players they are still more often preferred for me.
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Absolutely.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Gerrard was perennial bottler for the NT. Ballack was their most important player in 02' WC alongside Kahn and shot them to a WC final. Did well for Leverkusen (lesser team Liverpool), Chelsea and Bayern. Ballack is also the better technical player, better goalscorer, better header of the ball and better passer of the two. Gerrard is faster and probably that's the only advantage I'd have over Ballack.

@Ecstatic GMT ;)
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He never really had a chance to shine for the NT because the team wasn't built around him like Ballack.

Gerrard has had 9 seasons scoring ten goals or more in a harder league compared to 5 for Ballack so not sure how he is the better goal scorer, Gerrard has the better long shot, better dribbler and actually drove his team to win something.
 
Gio said:
Absolutely.
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The other random thought I had was that its also affected by our default of "rate players on peak 3 year period". I feel like that has somewhat biased me towards players with clear 3 year peaks like pre-injury Ronaldo, Van Basten or Maradona. Whereas players like Lampard, Gerrard or Cerezo their best three years of their career were spread out much more across their career so the 3 Year Peak Rule sort of hurts them too
 
P-Nut0712 said:
Was your mouth out now!
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Liverpool-Squad-of-2008-09.jpg


This side nearly won the title against the best defense we have ever had, scholes in midfield, ronaldo, rooney, tevez, nani and berbatov in attack and it was largely due to torres and gerrard in attack.
 
Lunch it is.

MJJ said:
He never really had a chance to shine for the NT because the team wasn't built around him like Ballack.

Gerrard has had 9 seasons scoring ten goals or more in a harder league compared to 5 for Ballack so not sure how he is the better goal scorer, Gerrard has the better long shot, better dribbler and actually drove his team to win something.
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Ballack was in much deeper role at Chelsea compared to Gerrard who was also in advanced one. Ballack played a lot less games at his peak, compared to Gerrard which boosted his stats. Ballack played more than 40 games only in two seasons and scored > 20 goals in each. His NT record also dwarfs Gerrard's.

Not sure how you rate Gerrard's long shot being better - harder yes, but Ballack had by far the better technique. Same in terms of dribbling, whilst Gerrard used his pace which I've already mentioned.

Ballack also was the captain of the national team that was in the WC finals, 3rd and EURO runners up. He won 4 BL, a PL title (didn't let it slip) compared to 1 CL (made it to two finals). Can't say PL was better than BL in the beginning of the century either. Were pretty much on par.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Lunch it is.



Ballack was in much deeper role at Chelsea compared to Gerrard who was also in advanced one. Ballack played a lot less games at his peak, compared to Gerrard which boosted his stats. Ballack played more than 40 games only in two seasons and scored > 20 goals in each. His NT record also dwarfs Gerrard's.

Not sure how you rate Gerrard's long shot being better - harder yes, but Ballack had by far the better technique. Same in terms of dribbling, whilst Gerrard used his pace which I've already mentioned.

Ballack also was the captain of the national team that was in the WC finals, 3rd and EURO runners up. He won 4 BL, a PL title (didn't let it slip) compared to 1 CL (made it to two finals). Can't say PL was better than BL in the beginning of the century either. Were pretty much on par.
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Last comment as off to sleep.. I will give you the BL but he won that with Bayern(strongest side in BL) but he wasn't really the star of that chelsea side so "didn't let it slip" doesn't apply. NT record is again due to poor managers who tried to fit both of them in together. Gerrard also spent a significant portion of his career playing in poor sides where he was the second best attacking option thus easier to mark and got more attention compared to Ballach.

Why is that if he was such a better player?
 
MJJ said:
Liverpool-Squad-of-2008-09.jpg


This side nearly won the title against the best defense we have ever had, scholes in midfield, ronaldo, rooney, tevez, nani and berbatov in attack and it was largely due to torres and gerrard in attack.
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Too many arrows. Would not vote for that side
 
dont think we need those anymore now we are separated from main forum
 
Šjor Bepo said:
dont think we need those anymore now we are separated from main forum
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Noticed a bit of a drop in terms of votes in some games in the last draft so maybe every second glance is appreciated. You are right though as we have only one draft running currently.
 
15-Tue:
EAP/Indy/OneNil vs Physiocrat
MJJ vs Moby

16-Wed:
P-Nut0712/Arbitrium vs Don Alfredo
GodShaveTheQueen vs Gio

18-Fri
Himannv/2mufc0 vs Skizzo
Šjor Bepo/Pat_Mustard vs Brwned

19-Saturday
Ecstatic vs Jim Beam/Invictus
---------------------------------------------------

Michaelf7777777/cubemine vs green_smiley
 
MJJ said:
No way is peak Ballack better than peak Gerrard.
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Yeah, I agree with this. I wouldn't even put peak Lampard behind peak Ballack in a pure attacking sense.

On a different note, if I ever were to build a Beckenbauer side, I would pick Gerrard/Lampard for the Netzer/Overath roles. Grossly underrated here.
 
Ended up pulling together a dashboard showing the goals records of all the draft forwards + a fairly random collection of other draft strikers. Looks at the highest goals total in a single season, and their records over a 4 year peak. Worked pretty well in the end. Just makes for an easy reference point for any of these draft games.

Planned on doing some kind of stat pack for all players in my team but it's only really goals data that lends itself well to data visualisation on a small scale...plus I can't really be bothered!
 
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Brwned said:
Ended up pulling together a dashboard showing the goals records of all the draft forwards + a fairly random collection of other draft strikers. Looks at the highest goals total in a single season, and their records over a 4 year peak. Worked pretty well in the end. Just makes for an easy reference point for any of these draft games.

Planned on doing some kind of stat pack for all players in my team but it's only really goals data that lends itself well to data visualisation on a small scale...plus I can't really be bothered!
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That's really good. The one thing I'd say is that a goals per game ranking would probably more fair in terms of ranking.
 
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