Film Star Wars: Episode VIII

MadMike said:
I guess but the difference there is that Hux is a pleb and Rey is a very strong force user her self.
I personally take some form of exception to both Snoke’s and Luke’s remote use of the force. Especially the combination of both. If Jedi/Sith could project themselves in any location many planets afar, while having full sensory input from their new surrounding and full use of their powers to boot, why the feck ever travel. Why put your physical body at risk in missions. It’s fairly lore breaking if you consider it.
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Hmmm, Luke died by projecting himself in some other planet.

I think that Snoke is dead dead. Unless they go full Star Wars: The Old Republic (no-one should ever go full SW:TOR), he is dead. The entire point of his killing was to establish Kylo as the main antagonist, to put him in the unknown and to surprise us. The thing I am most excited for the next movie is that I have no idea what is going to happen. If they return Snoke, it would be a bad move IMO.
 
Zarlak said:
To be honest I think when you're talking about someone as badass as Snoke was supposed to be, the difference between him and Rey and the difference between him and Hux is negligible. Ronaldo would take the piss out of me as much as he would a 6 year old. Also I think what Luke did is supposed to be extremely rare and not something that's common at all, or that jedi can just do on a whim. He's supposed to be like the ultimate jedi.
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Even taking legends into account, no one has done what Luke did in the last movie. Saying that, there are instances when someone extremely powerful has controlled multiple bodies at the same time.
 
Ubik said:
I appreciate the "probably" :lol:
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;)


Also, if Snoke can project a hologram that simulates itself getting visibly burned and singed by a lightsaber before flopping into three pieces, fair play to the bloke.
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This all day long. I'm here to be entertained, I don't care about the EU. To that end, if it's a ruse, then I'm completely team Snoke and the ultimate twist is he better fecking win!




Revan said:
Hmmm, Luke died by projecting himself in some other planet.

I think that Snoke is dead dead. Unless they go full Star Wars: The Old Republic (no-one should ever go full SW:TOR), he is dead. The entire point of his killing was to establish Kylo as the main antagonist, to put him in the unknown and to surprise us. The thing I am most excited for the next movie is that I have no idea what is going to happen. If they return Snoke, it would be a bad move IMO.
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It would be bad. But it would also confirm that the whole story makes little sense, which would also be bad. Personally I think they'll split the difference and make Snoke dead and Rey's parents more, or vice versa. Go full on made-up-as-you-go-along mode.



Revan said:
Even taking legends into account, no one has done what Luke did in the last movie. Saying that, there are instances when someone extremely powerful has controlled multiple bodies at the same time.
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Snoke managed to project both Ren and Rey across the galaxy to each other, so much that they can touch. The whole thing is made very clear with first them seeing each other, then Ren saying it would kill someone to do that, then them physically touching and water even being transported across the galaxy (I mean, that hasn't even been discussed, actual water was transported??). So he clearly does it before Luke, not only that, but to two different people.

Then, he dies to a guy who proceeds to get put in a choke hold by a jobber and can't even manage to detect another uber-powerful jedi isn't really there. Frankly, the nerds have many points.
 
Redlambs said:
Well if Snoke wasn't a badass, then that just makes a mockery of that power he displayed anyway. Because he went way beyond sending himself across the galaxy like Luke, he sent both Ren and Rey to each other.

Which is another thing, he is able to read their minds and link them, yet despite talking about it, Kylo somehow manages to use his mind to kill Snoke anyway. So whichever way you look at it, the situation as a whole makes no sense. And yeah, it is a made up fantasy film based in a world that fanboys have kept alive and made possible this new trilogy, but at least make it conform to it's own rules. Super Leia was ridiculous enough, but at least there's nothing to contradict it.

If anything, the people calling this some kind of fresh twist are even more wrong, because it's exactly the same as what happened to Palpatine anyway. feck all backstory, is the boss, get's killed by apprentice. I think people are pretty much right to be annoyed that he wasn't any different to be honest.

Well until the third film either doubles down the fact he was irrelevant or brings him back somehow I guess...
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I’d say it’s a hell of a lot easier to link just two people telepathically than it is to project a 3D hologram of yourself simultaneously seen by hundreds of people (which is achieved, presumably, by planting the images in their mind).

Re Snoke reading Ren’s mind, the way Ren got round this was literally explained - frame by frame - during the film. Obviously, you can pick holes in it but then that’s just like every movie ever that involves mind-reading or time travel.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’d say it’s a hell of a lot easier to link just two people telepathically than it is to project a 3D hologram of yourself simultaneously seen by hundreds of people (which is achieved, presumably, by planting the images in their mind).

Re Snoke reading Ren’s mind, the way Ren got round this was literally explained - frame by frame - during the film. Obviously, you can pick holes in it but then that’s just like every movie ever that involves mind-reading or time travel.
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Yeah, except Ren ends up with water on him. It's not hologram then, is it.

Pay attention if you are going to troll dude!
 
Tbh i think if he / his origin was that important they would have filled it out by now.
And someone probably would have pointed out that killing him off wasn't a great plan ... unless they're just making it up as they go and have no overarching story they want to tell.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’d say it’s a hell of a lot easier to link just two people telepathically than it is to project a 3D hologram of yourself simultaneously seen by hundreds of people (which is achieved, presumably, by planting the images in their mind).

Re Snoke reading Ren’s mind, the way Ren got round this was literally explained - frame by frame - during the film. Obviously, you can pick holes in it but then that’s just like every movie ever that involves mind-reading or time travel.
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I'm not so sure to be honest, we see in one instance that parts of the world are transferrable. When Kyloe takes his hands back, water follows him where it was raining on Rey's side. They touch physically and there's a physical link there across the universe. That's not me picking holes in what you're saying, just really evidence of how confusing feats are in this new trilogy.
 
caid said:
Tbh i think if he / his origin was that important they would have filled it out by now.
And someone probably would have pointed out that killing him off wasn't a great plan ... unless they're just making it up as they go and have no overarching story they want to tell.
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In all seriousness and nerd-baiting aside, it does actually seem this is the most likely scenario. I mean TLJ does kind of piss on TFA which kind of pisses on the original trilogy. I think they are just using set pieces and random ideas to try to make a story that is exactly like the original story, but not quite.
 
Revan said:
Hmmm, Luke died by projecting himself in some other planet.

I think that Snoke is dead dead. Unless they go full Star Wars: The Old Republic (no-one should ever go full SW:TOR), he is dead. The entire point of his killing was to establish Kylo as the main antagonist, to put him in the unknown and to surprise us. The thing I am most excited for the next movie is that I have no idea what is going to happen. If they return Snoke, it would be a bad move IMO.
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I was think more Knights of the Old Republic 2 really. Like Darth Sion he just stitches himself back together over time.
I could get on board with a Sith Zombie. Chuck him into a sun at the end to stop him getting revived every 5 mins in the eu.

Redlambs said:
In all seriousness and nerd-baiting aside, it does actually seem this is the most likely scenario. I mean TLJ does kind of piss on TFA which kind of pisses on the original trilogy. I think they are just using set pieces and random ideas to try to make a story that is exactly like the original story, but not quite.
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Yeah i think they are too.
And i think JJ Abrams is really fecked off at Rian Johnson :lol:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s exactly what I’m thinking of!

I assumed that was how look did his whole “hologram” thing. Did a group jedi mind trick on everyone present, “these are not the droids you’re looking for”
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I think he's referring to Kylo and Rey touching each other across the galaxy and Kylo pulling water back from the planet Rey was on, not Luke at the end!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It all amounts to the same thing, though. Fecking with people’s heads.
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It's possible, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to be honest. Like completely unnecessary effort to just randomly bring water back for no apparent reason. It looked like the whole point of it was to demonstrate that the link was physical, which Snoke then took credit for so it was a testament to his power, rather than just he faked it and there never was any water.
 
Zarlak said:
It's possible, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to be honest. Like completely unnecessary effort to just randomly bring water back for no apparent reason. It looked like the whole point of it was to demonstrate that the link was physical, which Snoke then took credit for so it was a testament to his power, rather than just he faked it and there never was any water.
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Couldn't the water trick (and I'm assuming it was a trick he played on them, rather than actually teleporting water) be a detail he added to convince the two of them how special/unique the link was between them? That was the whole point of linking them in the first place, after all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Couldn't the water trick (and I'm assuming it was a trick he played on them, rather than actually teleporting water) be a detail he added to convince the two of them how special/unique the link was between them? That was the whole point of linking them in the first place, after all.
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I guess, sure. It just feels like a bit of a stretch that's all, deliberately making it fit the theory. Since he's now dead there's no way that'll ever get verified so it's surely just head canon in which case it doesn't really add anything to the film since we don't know for sure. I thought it was physical water, and it was just a testament to his power that he was literally able to make them touch each other across the galaxy. I'm guessing if it was a hologram they wouldn't feel each other when they touched but to be honest I thought that whole part of the movie was silly. What would have happened if Kylo just tried to pull her towards him? Seemed like a silly feat to try, they could have just gone with non contact but could actually see each other still, that would have still been more impressive than the precedent which was Luke and Leia being able to think to each other.
 
Can we get a poll added so people can vote on whether it's easier to link 2 people telepathically or project a 3d hologram of yourself?

It's about time we got to the bottom of this.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Couldn't the water trick (and I'm assuming it was a trick he played on them, rather than actually teleporting water) be a detail he added to convince the two of them how special/unique the link was between them? That was the whole point of linking them in the first place, after all.
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But then, he's pulled this trick off on a master of the force too. Which makes him even that more powerful anyway which again adds up to him being a badass and his death being cheap and the nerds are right.


CassiusClaymore said:
Can we get a poll added so people can vote on whether it's easier to link 2 people telepathically or project a 3d hologram of yourself?

It's about time we got to the bottom of this.
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c) He didn't do anything telepathically or via holograms, he physically linked Ren and Rey somehow like Luke further demonstrates, and people are just so thick that they can't grasp the difference.
 
At least Snoke was able to treat Rey like the noob she is rather than losing to her like everyone else. instead he lost to his apprentice whilst actively reading his mind but whatever.
 
Zarlak said:
I guess, sure. It just feels like a bit of a stretch that's all, deliberately making it fit the theory. Since he's now dead there's no way that'll ever get verified so it's surely just head canon in which case it doesn't really add anything to the film since we don't know for sure. I thought it was physical water, and it was just a testament to his power that he was literally able to make them touch each other across the galaxy. I'm guessing if it was a hologram they wouldn't feel each other when they touched but to be honest I thought that whole part of the movie was silly. What would have happened if Kylo just tried to pull her towards him? Seemed like a silly feat to try, they could have just gone with non contact but could actually see each other still, that would have still been more impressive than the precedent which was Luke and Leia being able to think to each other.
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They would, though. Like I said, I don't think there's any kind of hologram. He was controlling their minds. He could make them see, touch and feel whatever he wanted them to see, touch and feel. Classic Jedi mind trick. That's why I mentioned Luke. My assumption was that his "hologram" was projected into the minds of the people watching.
 
If you can conjur electricity out of thin air with the force, it can probably condense some water out of it quite easily too.

The sequence is just about them acquiring empathy for each other, shown physically.
 
But does he have the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away, with mind bullets?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
They would, though. Like I said, I don't think there's any kind of hologram. He was controlling their minds. He could make them see, touch and feel whatever he wanted them to see, touch and feel. Classic Jedi mind trick. That's why I mentioned Luke. My assumption was that his "hologram" was projected into the minds of the people watching.
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But didn't he also create those "dice" bauble things he got from the Falcon that only dissipated after his death? which would mean they were a lingering effect of the force hologram he'd created rather than a direct link with everyones minds which would be cut as soon as he died.
 
Redlambs said:
But then, he's pulled this trick off on a master of the force too. Which makes him even that more powerful anyway which again adds up to him being a badass and his death being cheap and the nerds are right.
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How was his death cheap? It was one of the coolest bits in the movie. Thinks he's holding all the cards because he's reading Ren's mind, only to get chopped in fecking half thanks to a cunning bluff. That was a great moment. One of the best baddie deaths in any Star Wars film.

A refreshing change from generic "epic battle -> baddie on top -> goodie fights back -> baddie is "dead - > but wait! -> he's not dead! -> ok, now he's dead" which we've seen a million time before :boring:
 
redom said:
But didn't he also create those "dice" bauble things he got from the Falcon that only dissipated after his death? which would mean they were a lingering effect of the force hologram he'd created rather than a direct link with everyones minds which would be cut as soon as he died.
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I didn't really get the point of the dice tbh. Maybe they were the one and only tangible thing he physically transported from A to B?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s exactly what I’m thinking of!

I assumed that was how Luke did his whole “hologram” thing. Did a group jedi mind trick on everyone present, “these are not the droids you’re looking for”
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Pogue Mahone said:
They would, though. Like I said, I don't think there's any kind of hologram. He was controlling their minds. He could make them see, touch and feel whatever he wanted them to see, touch and feel. Classic Jedi mind trick. That's why I mentioned Luke. My assumption was that his "hologram" was projected into the minds of the people watching.
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...


Ubik said:
If you can conjur electricity out of thin air with the force, it can probably condense some water out of it quite easily too.
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Maybe some fire or rock too. Pokemon style!


The sequence is just about them acquiring empathy for each other, shown physically.
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Yeah, this. It's not meant to mean anything other than showing a connection. Just in an in your face, lack of any subtly way.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How was his death cheap? It was one of the coolest bits in the movie. Thinks he's holding all the cards because he's reading Ren's mind, only to get chopped in fecking half thanks to a cunning bluff. That was a great moment. One of the best baddie deaths in any Star Wars film.

A refreshing change from generic "epic battle -> baddie on top -> goodie fights back -> baddie is "dead - > but wait! -> he's not dead! -> ok, now he's dead" which we've seen a million time before :boring:
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It was cheap, he was actively trying to move the lightsaber, which would require thought in order to do it. Snoke was literally reading his mind, the notion that Snoke wouldn't hear that he was trying to kill him is just really weird. Try thinking about doing something without thinking it. It was nice to see something different though. These are also guys that can sense when planets explode halfway across the galaxy, or can sense when someone dies but can't hear/sense a lightsaber next to them turning. Also the canon for lightsaber battles is that these guys use the force to see what's coming and to always be one step ahead, imagine a light saber duel they'd use the force to literally see where the next blow is going to swing so they could then move to parry it in anticipation, so sure in a fast paced flurry of lightsabers you can feck up, but it took a good 20 seconds to turn that and he couldn't see shit to do with it the whole time. It felt like the new great overlord of the dark side shouldn't be fooled by something like that. His death is probably the only real problem I have with the movie, it could have been much better. You can't really pull something like that off without thinking about it, and given that Snoke was literally reading his mind, he should have known and that's without considering that they're supposed to be able to sense what's happening around them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How was his death cheap? It was one of the coolest bits in the movie. Thinks he's holding all the cards because he's reading Ren's mind, only to get chopped in fecking half thanks to a cunning bluff. That was a great moment. One of the best baddie deaths in any Star Wars film.

A refreshing change from generic "epic battle -> baddie on top -> goodie fights back -> baddie is "dead - > but wait! -> he's not dead! -> ok, now he's dead" which we've seen a million time before :boring:
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He dies almost exactly the same way as Palpatine. You don't know he comes back, which is why your little joke there doesn't work, as that's not happened...yet anyway.

So again, try harder and try to understand the difference between holograms and telepathy because you are all over the shop with your nerd lingo.


Pogue Mahone said:
The clue is in the use of quotes. Hologram vs "hologram"
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So who are you quoting? Because it's only you referring to anything as a "hologram".
 
Redlambs said:
He dies almost exactly the same way as Palpatine. You don't know he comes back, which is why your little joke there doesn't work, as that's not happened...yet anyway.

So again, try harder and try to understand the difference between holograms and telepathy because you are all over the shop with your nerd lingo.




So who are you quoting? Because it's only you referring to anything as a "hologram".
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Now you're just being rude. It's not my fault you're too thick to understand my point but, hey, I'll dumb it down for you. I called it a "hologram" because that what it's often been referred to as. My take on it was that there was no hologram. The image was created in the minds of the observers, as opposed to being a 3D image created by light projection. So it was a "hologram" but not a hologram.

Re the baddie death scenario, I wasn't making a joke. Just re-hashing the formulaic final battle with the main villain we've all seen in dozens of movies and anyone who is even vaguely cine-literate would have immediately recognised. But hey, you're all over the nerd lingo yet lacking in a basic understanding of cinema. There's a surprise :rolleyes:
 
Zarlak said:
It was cheap, he was actively trying to move the lightsaber, which would require thought in order to do it. Snoke was literally reading his mind, the notion that Snoke wouldn't hear that he was trying to kill him is just really weird. Try thinking about doing something without thinking it. It was nice to see something different though. These are also guys that can sense when planets explode halfway across the galaxy, or can sense when someone dies but can't hear/sense a lightsaber next to them turning. Also the canon for lightsaber battles is that these guys use the force to see what's coming and to always be one step ahead, imagine a light saber duel they'd use the force to literally see where the next blow is going to swing so they could then move to parry it in anticipation, so sure in a fast paced flurry of lightsabers you can feck up, but it took a good 20 seconds to turn that and he couldn't see shit to do with it the whole time. It felt like the new great overlord of the dark side shouldn't be fooled by something like that. His death is probably the only real problem I have with the movie, it could have been much better. You can't really pull something like that off without thinking about it, and given that Snoke was literally reading his mind, he should have known and that's without considering that they're supposed to be able to sense what's happening around them.
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Try thinking about nothing at all. As in, literally completely empty your mind. That's even harder. But that's what people who meditate do all the time. So it's not a massive leap to imagine someone who can do all sorts of crazy shit with the power of his mind being able to do a bit of misdirection; think about moving one light saber, then move another. Trying to portray that onscreen is tricky but they did a decent job of it IMO.
 
Zarlak said:
It was cheap, he was actively trying to move the lightsaber, which would require thought in order to do it. Snoke was literally reading his mind, the notion that Snoke wouldn't hear that he was trying to kill him is just really weird. Try thinking about doing something without thinking it. It was nice to see something different though. These are also guys that can sense when planets explode halfway across the galaxy, or can sense when someone dies but can't hear/sense a lightsaber next to them turning. Also the canon for lightsaber battles is that these guys use the force to see what's coming and to always be one step ahead, imagine a light saber duel they'd use the force to literally see where the next blow is going to swing so they could then move to parry it in anticipation, so sure in a fast paced flurry of lightsabers you can feck up, but it took a good 20 seconds to turn that and he couldn't see shit to do with it the whole time. It felt like the new great overlord of the dark side shouldn't be fooled by something like that. His death is probably the only real problem I have with the movie, it could have been much better. You can't really pull something like that off without thinking about it, and given that Snoke was literally reading his mind, he should have known and that's without considering that they're supposed to be able to sense what's happening around them.
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Why can't they see where someone's going to block and hit elsewhere?

I like what this film did with the whole "foresight" angle. Multiple people "seeing" the same events unfold but interpreting it with their own bias, which still allows for choice and uncertainty. Evil dark lords being fatally hubristic in their knowledge of the future isn't exactly new to Star Wars.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Try thinking about nothing at all. As in, literally completely empty your mind. That's even harder. But that's what people who meditate do all the time. So it's not a massive leapto imagine someone who can do all sorts of crazy shit with the power of his mind being able to do a bit of misdirection; think about moving one light saber, then move another. Trying to portray that onscreen is tricky but they did a decent job of it IMO.
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Also, masters are always, always on guard for their apprentices killing them. It's literally the rule of the sith is that the apprentice one day kills the master and surpasses him, or dies trying. So given that Snoke calls him a pussy the whole film and knows he's got light in him then forces him to bond with Rey via telepathy then he really should have been expecting it, or watching out for it. The fact he wasn't suggests he's pretty stupid, or cheapens his character IMO. They did portray it well on screen, but the whole premise I thought was silly to have him go out like that to begin with and that method of death leaves it open to questioning.
 
Ubik said:
Why can't they see where someone's going to block and hit elsewhere?

I like what this film did with the whole "foresight" angle. Multiple people "seeing" the same events unfold but interpreting it with their own bias, which still allows for choice and uncertainty. Evil dark lords being fatally hubristic in their knowledge of the future isn't exactly new to Star Wars.
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I dunno, I'm not a jedi knight. Probably because it takes more time to formulate a plan of where to strike when the other person is going to also be able to see it coming, and in that time you're going to get your head cut off unless you defend their strike. So they just go at each other and wait for an opening.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Now you're just being rude. It's not my fault you're too thick to understand my point but, hey, I'll dumb it down for you. I called it a "hologram" because that what it's often been referred to as. My take on it was that there was no hologram. The image was created in the minds of the observers, as opposed to being a 3D image created by light projection. So it was a "hologram" but not a hologram.
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Who else called it a hologram? You did, I called you on it, now you are squirming harder than someone calling Rey a Mary Sue when Zarlak is around.


Re the baddie death scenario, I wasn't making a joke. Just re-hashing the formulaic final battle with the main villain we've all seen in dozens of movies and anyone who is even vaguely cine-literate would have immediately recognised. But hey, you're all over the nerd lingo yet lacking in a basic understanding of cinema. There's a surprise :rolleyes:
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What, you mean exactly the scene we got with both Palpatine and now Snoke? Yeah how dare people want something a bit different!


Pogue Mahone said:
Try thinking about nothing at all. As in, literally completely empty your mind. That's even harder. But that's what people who meditate do all the time. So it's not a massive leap to imagine someone who can do all sorts of crazy shit with the power of his mind being able to do a bit of misdirection; think about moving one light saber, then move another. Trying to portray that onscreen is tricky but they did a decent job of it IMO.
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You'd be a great Sith lord, in the way both Palpatine and Snoke were. Making excuses for being killed by the guy you know is out to kill you. Great job genius! :lol:
 
Redlambs said:
Who else called it a hologram? You did, I called you on it, now you are squirming harder than someone calling Rey a Mary Sue when Zarlak is around.




What, you mean exactly the scene we got with both Palpatine and now Snoke? Yeah how dare people want something a bit different!




You'd be a great Sith lord, in the way both Palpatine and Snoke were. Making excuses for being killed by the guy you know is out to kill you. Great job genius! :lol:
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This was different! First time we've seen an apprentice kill the master to take power for themselves! Was fun.
 
Zarlak said:
I legit can't tell if this exchange between RL and Pogue is in good humour or not.
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It must be. Or Pogue really takes space wizards too seriously ;)


Ubik said:
This was different! First time we've seen an apprentice kill the master to take power for themselves! Was fun.
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That's one way of looking at it I suppose. Another is that Snoke ends exactly like Palpatine and since we've seen it all before, it feels cheap and just like they don't actually have a plan for it all.
 
Redlambs said:
It must be. Or Pogue really takes space wizards too seriously ;)




That's one way of looking at it I suppose. Another is that Snoke ends exactly like Palpatine and since we've seen it all before, it feels cheap and just like they don't actually have a plan for it all.
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I liked the fact they did that early. If they'd left Snoke alive for part 3, it would have been an impending third film showdown with the mysterious dark side master, just like the original trilogy.
 
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