I honestly thought that Snoke was going to kill Luke, to cement his position as the powerful bad and that Rey and Kylo were going to switch. Kylo in pain at his old master dying along with his father when he was still being pulled by the light and Rey going dark. Or that Rey and Kylo would be good and face off with Snoke in the third.
Film Star Wars: Episode VIII
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I honestly thought that Snoke was going to kill Luke, to cement his position as the powerful bad and that Rey and Kylo were going to switch. Kylo in pain at his old master dying along with his father when he was still being pulled by the light and Rey going dark. Or that Rey and Kylo would be good and face off with Snoke in the third.
Thanks Zarlak. I mistakenly wrote third trilogy instead of first and now you've quoted it before I could edit.
I don't think I gave the individual paths much thought, but I always assumed Snoke would still be around for the finale.
It's a similar death with a dramatically different impact on the story and the antagonist. So you can say you've seen the moment before, but it's setting up a very different conclusion to the trilogy. Which, to me, is preferable.It must be. Or Pogue really takes space wizards too seriously
That's one way of looking at it I suppose. Another is that Snoke ends exactly like Palpatine and since we've seen it all before, it feels cheap and just like they don't actually have a plan for it all.
Thanks Zarlak. I mistakenly wrote third trilogy instead of first and now you've quoted it before I could edit.
I don't think I gave the individual paths much thought, but I always assumed Snoke would still be around for the finale.
Yeah me too, I really thought they were building Snoke to be even worse than the original emperor, instead we got someone who doesn't seem to be anywhere near his league.You guys think Luke winked at C3PO because C3PO knew he wasn't really there? Or was that just a cool way to say hi?
I like the thought they are mixing it up or even making it up as they go along really as that means all of us, nerds/fans and trolls alike, have no idea where it's headed. A bit like Got after the books ended, it makes it all that more fun when no one knows what the hell is happening. But like what's happened with that, it should all at least make sense or people will complain.
Whichever way you look at it, it's still the same death though, and if anything it makes Luke's ending just that little more shit. I mean we have a big baddie who can do what Luke does without dying and then who dies like a jobbing punk or the alternative is Luke is such a pussy that a mundane use of the force kills him. Now there could be a middle ground, but since they made a big point of Kylo both saying this kind of thing would kill you and then the water/dice thing, it's pretty obvious that they were trying to say Luke's ending was all powerful jedi mastery which means where is the middle ground at all?
Frankly they also fecked up entirely by having Snoke claim he thought Luke was Ren's opposite, because then where is Snoke's? We can't surely believe he was that thick, so why couldn't he see the simple balance there between himself and Luke and then Rey and Ren?
That's already a better story to this point. Fair enough we haven't seen the ending yet, and it may still come down to Rey and Ren vs Snoke or whatever, but I can't believe they are just letting this story drift by as it is.
Spark of the rebellion. It's exactly the same story as before, yet somehow it has people convinced it's different because the twist came 90-odd minutes earlier? I mean, it's just accelerated what happened before, only this time we get to see what Vader could have done after killing the Palpatine had he survived.
To me, what would be preferable, is avoiding the same situation entirely. It's the same old sith story we all know, just bumped up a film. Maybe it's fan service in keeping with the nerds, or maybe it's true that Rian just decided to feck off TFA, but all in all it's just the same shit but a bit earlier. Hopefully the finale makes sense of it all and we all come out of the cinema pumped and happy at how stupid we all look for guessing at this shit
I've been enjoined from continuing this topic on pain of exile to the Wasteland beyond the walls of Redcafe where the sun doth not shine and the kindly zephyr of summer doth not blow. So I can't reply.
I've been enjoined from continuing this topic on pain of exile to the Wasteland beyond the walls of Redcafe where the sun doth not shine and the kindly zephyr of summer doth not blow. So I can't reply.
Burnley?
Nah, Stoke.
It’s deffo Dudley
I thought at one point Rey was going to kill Luke in a parallel scene to Kylo killing Snoke. It was hinted at quite strongly as a theme but my guess is they just couldn't do it. It's a kids film, and there wouldn't really be a hero.
Enjoyed the film for the most part. Some silly stuff but you get to expect that.
Enjoyed the film for the most part. Some silly stuff but you get to expect that.
Finally got around to watching it. In general I enjoyed it but there were a few things that irked me
1. Luke’s character became a joker. I’d have preferred he became a wise master in hiding.2. The location he was hiding at. Shit. What were those stupid keeper things, bad joke 3. Rey didn’t actually receive ANY force training so everything is instinct for her. 4. Snoke is meant to be like the head sith alive, plotting for thousands of years. Dies too soon, would have liked to have seen more lightning bolts etc 5. I was expecting Adrian edmondson to whack someone with a frying pan 6. They can’t have killed off the Skywalker bloodline surely? Maybe Luke had a secret kid. 7. Barring the droids and chewie (with Carrie fishers passing) there is no link anymore to the original trilogy. I’d have preferred some character continuity for the old nerds like me. We’re the people that buy the merchandise, collect the collectibles and get their kids into it. Disney are stealing our childhood to create new consumers. Bah!
No reason why you won't see Luke and Yoda again.
R2, C3PO and Chewie still around too.
The more I think about Snoke the more I think his character is symbolic of the problems with this film.
Regardless of what you think about what this film should have been it's a fecking awful piece of storytelling. There was no characterisation, no development, nothing. Just a weird ball sacking looking man (tbf most of the visuals in this film were good so his costume design is the fault of TFA) whose actions are wildly inconsistent with the position of power he's supposed to be in.
Absolutely awful character, whose death was thoroughly unsatisfying. Add to the fact that, for better or for worse, it shit on a fan theory which (whilst problematic) was better than what the film actually did with him, and sprinkled with a little touch of 'hah you guys thought this character would be good, feck all of you morons for being invested in the universe' (which is a separate issue this film had of somewhat bizarrely wanting to wage war on the people that have spent the billions of pounds they have on the franchise since its reboot) and you can see why the reaction has been mixed.
That said JJ Abrams showed no ounce of creativity with TFA so he'll probably retcon Snoke into a black, metal suit and have him walk around breathing heavily in the next film.
Which fan theory do you mean?
Snake = Darth Palagius. I can fully understand why they didn't want to go with that at all, but at the very least it gives Snoke some sort of character which they didn't bother to do.
'Fan theory' - mostly a bunch of grown men way too invested in the 'story' of kids films.
I would wonder if the people making these movies even know, never mind care, about that sort of fan theory. They should certainly be under no obligation to pay them any heed.
I think they could read every bit of fan theory out there and it would not help them make a better film in the slightest little bit. So more likely they simply don't.
They absolutely would know about it, it was all over the internet, all over Reddit on front pages, all over YouTube, these guys do seek out feedback and read the theories, I seem to remember them saying they'd seen the Jar Jar = Sith Lord theory and were laughing about it. But they go into the film with their own vision, they're not enlisting us to help write the film for them.
My roommate had a new take on Luke's last scene.
Aside from practicality, part of the reason he sent his image rather than himself was because he was trying non-violence with Kylo, having failed (and created huge misery) with the violent approach earlier.
I'm not sure but it's a nice new angle.
And also agreed with her that the admiral was a useless character who should have communicated more.
Aside from practicality, part of the reason he sent his image rather than himself was because he was trying non-violence with Kylo, having failed (and created huge misery) with the violent approach earlier.
I'm not sure but it's a nice new angle.
And also agreed with her that the admiral was a useless character who should have communicated more.
No, of course not, and TFA was a far worse film than TLJ for its slavish adherence to what fans wanted at the expense of anything new.
I just simply think that it was, at best, a bizarre decision to not flesh out Snoke as a character at all, and for better or for worse the attitude the film seemed to have towards the fandom may well have been swallowed a bit better if it was accompanied with a back story for Snoke that stood up as an alternative to the fan theory rather than just nothing. At the very least the fan theory gave some sort of backstory to the character.
I completely accept the idea that they need to pull themselves away from the fringes of the nerd community, but thats not a carte blanche for failing at basic aspects of story telling.
I personally don't really GAF about Snoke's back story, and I suspect the same is true for the majority of the audience.
I do agree with this that fan theory shouldn't pressure the direction, at all. I mean even if you made a film based on a theory, you'd get another load of people hating it anyway.
However, the fans of the films and franchise are why we are getting these films to this day. It's all well and good us laughing at the nerds and manchildren for caring so much, but these films are still here largely thanks to them. So maybe don't piss on everything. I don't get why there couldn't be a better balance, for example if you wanted Leia to finally show her true power, why not have her use Battle Mediation at the time Poe decides to rogue it, thus helping their escape make much more sense? EU/Game fans would love it, it's a power new fans could understand (because it makes way more sense) and most of all, it wouldn't just look shit on film.
You can mix enough in to appease people whilst still telling a new story, or you can change it all up and go completely fresh. Here, they once again did neither. That's my only real problem with it as a film, it's still very much nothing much.
Was TFA made for original and EU fans? I'm not sure it was but then again I don't consider myself a huge fan. I like the Dark Forces games which personally I think made a far better (and much more Star Wars) story and they should have just done that, but I don't care enough to be bothered if they replace it with a good story.
However TFA went the other way to me, it just recreated the original film with modern technology to attract new fans. It's clever as they used the old fans to keep it relevant whilst making it stay that way with new fans, and I appreciate that. With TLJ though, they seem to be a little too much like they are appearing to be doing things differently, whilst not doing anything really different at all. It's a weird Limbo film, though I have to say, I still liked it mostly so maybe that's the point. It keeps me interested enough for the next one and keeps the angry nerds even more desperate to see it and make all their little theories make sense.
I did see the director referencing that theory so he is at least aware of it. As he said though, that's someone else's story if they want to tell it. His story is about Ren & Rey, so there's no need to spend time delving into the background of a secondary character.
Funnily enough, Snoke's counterpart in the original films wasn't given any backstory either. That all came from outside sources and later films. This particular complaint is very much a result of the way the consumption of these films has changed, I think.
They had started filming the 2nd one before the 1st was released, so they wouldn't have known about it.
Rian Johnsons interviews on it are quite interesting actually.
There was a good piece on this a couple of years back - http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/01/12/we-created-the-mystery-box
His story was the second part of a trilogy. And he’s left it with nowhere else to go.
I think thats a flawed comparison. Ddespite their similarity in appearance and relationship to the 'main' bad guy their role in the two trilogies is pretty different.
The Emperor doesn't appear until the second film in the original trilogy, and his appearance is an argument with Vader where he doesn't get his own way. Vader clearly drives the plot from a bad guy point of view and the Emperor's role in the third film is almost purely to give Vader his redemption.
In comparison Snoke is presented as as much the main antagonist in the first film as Ren, and as an omnipotent manipulator controlling both main characters in the second. Simply saying that the story 'wasn't about Snoke' doesn't change how much of the story to date has been about him and his relationship to the characters; the Vader/Emperor relationship wasn't explored in anywhere near as much depth.
All of which is why it's probably a good decision to kill him off and let Kylo Ren be his own character, but I find it hard to believe that others don't think that five minutes spent trying to make the audience care about Snoke's death wouldn't have been a better use of time than that awful casino scene.
I do think a lot of my criticism of this film as a film owes much to how much of a mess JJ Abrams made of the first one in fairness; if Rian Johnson didn't have to spend so much of his time trying to make sure he didn't fall into the trap of remaking Empire (which all things considered is where Abrams left it) then maybe we'd have had more time to take the story somewhere more interesting.
Nah, by any definition the antagonist in TFA is Ren. You might've expected Snoke to become the main antagonist of the series, but he wasn't in that film. Tarkin had a far more prevalent role in A New Hope.
The only thing I really think is of interest in Snoke's backstory (with regard to the story being told) is how he influenced Kylo/Ben, and that's not exactly beyond the realms of possibility of being told in the third. There's been plenty of concepts so far for dark side ghosts and it might be interesting to see him haunting Kylo just as Luke helps Rey.
To be fair I've tried rewatching TFA a few times and keep getting bored, but is Snoke not the one that authorises the Death Star clone to blow up the Republic, and the one who orders Ren to kill Han?
Clearly Ren is the one doing most of the actual doing, but unless I'm mistaken he's more or less following orders throughout the film.
Jenny Nicholson - Top Ten Worst Reasons You Hated The Last Jedi
Under George Lucas, the Sith were always scary and foreboding, ie palapatine, and vader, very serious, and not to be messed with. In this new garbage Disney one, the first new movie was a copy of the old ones, Everyone said thats ok, as theyre just setting up for other 2 movies. Now in the last jedi, there was so much in the movie that was a copy of other movies, especially that last scene very reminiscent of Hoth scene in orginal trilogy. Also Kylo Ren is characterised as a figure of fun, by his bumbling in the elevator, and was a figure of comedy in the force awakens. It just cheapens him as a villain too much
This new trilogy so far to me has been pure garbage
I didn’t see Kylo Ren as a figure of fun at all. I thought he was tormented rather than bumbling in the lift.
And Snoke (who wasn’t a Sith) was undone by his self-satisfaction and hubris. The Emperor didn’t notice Darth Vader’s change of heart at the end, either.
And Snoke (who wasn’t a Sith) was undone by his self-satisfaction and hubris. The Emperor didn’t notice Darth Vader’s change of heart at the end, either.
Saw this yesterday and loved the movie. Great watch and I was thoroughly entertained.
I can understand your other points, even if I interpret the film differently but that's just outright ludicrous.
Saw this again still feels meh.
Obviously we know finn is a pointless character.
But what strikes me most is that the film and the build up was crying out for luke to whoop some massive atat ass. Really wanted to see him use some powerful force moves before going out the way he did but it just dwindled out.
In response to this Ren becomes extra angry and suprises himself with electric out of his hands. Nothing much, just for us to think "woah he is quite powerful after all" After all everyone goes on about how powerful he is supposed to be, but we have seen nothing from him yet.
Even yoda mentions how this new breed of jedi/sith naturally become stronger than their previous masters.
I haven't seen anything in rey or ren that obi/anakin/like beat down comfortably.
Maybe now the teachings and morals are burnt rey will fall to the darkside in terms of force powers but not actually be a bad person and just combine the both?
Obviously we know finn is a pointless character.
But what strikes me most is that the film and the build up was crying out for luke to whoop some massive atat ass. Really wanted to see him use some powerful force moves before going out the way he did but it just dwindled out.
In response to this Ren becomes extra angry and suprises himself with electric out of his hands. Nothing much, just for us to think "woah he is quite powerful after all" After all everyone goes on about how powerful he is supposed to be, but we have seen nothing from him yet.
Even yoda mentions how this new breed of jedi/sith naturally become stronger than their previous masters.
I haven't seen anything in rey or ren that obi/anakin/like beat down comfortably.
Maybe now the teachings and morals are burnt rey will fall to the darkside in terms of force powers but not actually be a bad person and just combine the both?
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In regards to snoke not picking up that ren was about to kill him
At this time snoke was sensing ren "turning his light saber pointing at his true enemy and turning it on"
If you watch, this is exactly what ren was doing with his own saber against rey.
Snoke wrongly assumed that him sensing rens feeling's were against rey but at this point we knew that ren knew that snoke was the true enemy of rens development.
At this time snoke was sensing ren "turning his light saber pointing at his true enemy and turning it on"
If you watch, this is exactly what ren was doing with his own saber against rey.
Snoke wrongly assumed that him sensing rens feeling's were against rey but at this point we knew that ren knew that snoke was the true enemy of rens development.