Can we all agree at least that the red salt planet looked incredible?
Some of the shots in the film in general are just fantastic.
Some of the shots in the film in general are just fantastic.
Film Star Wars: Episode VIII
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Yeah, I loved it. Those 40 or so minutes with Rose and Finn could've been better spent there imo.
"R2 has scanned the building and that door is the only way in or out." 2 minutes later they're all outside in trenches and towers and flying out of holes in the roof while the door remains firmly shut.
Obi-Wan was all-business, at the end of the day. 'I will do what I must' is a sentence that explains him. Don't get me wrong, he is my favorite Star Wars character, but in the end, he was a perfect Jedi. In the movie novelization, he says that he would be able to sacrifice anyone (including Yoda, himself or Anakin) if that stops the war for a day and so saves millions of lives. He goes against Anakin, when Anakin has gone dark, and he fecking raised Anakin. He acknowledges that Anakin is the only Jedi who takes into account the personal relationships.
Luke - in my opinion - was the only Star Wars character who was totally light.
That had a lot to do with Rey essentially creating an another door.
She wasn't there at the time, I mean when they were facing the First Order.
What I was saying is that there was no other door bar the main one. Until, Rey created an another door, so nothing wrong with what they said.
Was the door firmly shut while they were out? I thought that they opened the door to leave the shit airplanes go and attack the Order.
R2 is like a 100 years old piece of hardware, to be fair.
No, you're talking about a different part of the film. They say that door is the only way in or out of the entire facility, then 2 minutes later they're all outside in trenches ready to fight the first order, and flying planes out of doors in the roof. This was way before Rey showed up and moved any rocks. There were clearly doors leading to outside all over the place, and yeah the main one was closed. It's not a massive deal, was just amusing. They managed to get like 40 people outside before Rey showed up.
Can someone tell me how Adam Driver as Kylo gets away with his performance much more than Christensen did? Apart from the scene where he screams for Luke to be shot more and more (which was pretty good) he had a depressed, stoned look for the whole movie. He is neither scary nor a very interesting character at all. Not well played either. Can't win me over at all. His inner conflict all too obviously shown.
Isn't that kind of the point for 90% of the film. Snoke basically calls him a Vader wannabe and tells him to take off the stupid mask. He snaps after killing Snoke and I think we'll see a proper bad ass villain for the final film in the trilogy.
Christensen was fine in the third movie, but genuinely terrible in the second movie (shit dialogues didn't help). He looked like a stupid teen for most of the second movie, and his fall to the darkness happened so fast in the third movie.
Adam Driver is quite good in these movies, I would say in pair with Christensen in RotS. He is what Anakin should have been in the prequels. Do not have any problems with his acting. In fact, the entire set of actors have done a good job when it comes to acting, with Poe actor being the best of them.
I can't see that with him. He is too much of a whiny teen for me to take him seriously as a villain.
That's what I see in Kylo Ren as well though. Maybe it's just me but he really annoys me.
Empire in particular is very, very well written/edited for a "B-movie" and the transitions are 'great film' level. For example, they use a cave motif: hero enters cave and emerges with prize (Aladdin and his lamp, the Eastern mythologies where hero goes into a cave to find a mystical plant that will cure his mother's illness, etc) and Luke goes into three caves in the film(four if you count Yoda's hut) and each time emerges different along the theme of 'using the force for violence only hurts yourself'
(first time he uses the force he cuts off the arm of the monster; second time he cuts off vader's head only to realize it's himself; third time he gets his own arm cut off)
And if you map the transitions between all the scenes, each scene no matter how short has a perfect beginning climax and ending and they really nail the transitions. For example the Falcon getting pursued because they can't go to lightspeed (uh oh), then hope in the asteroid field (ray of hope), then the pursuit and the last tie fighters getting blown up (climax) and then safety in the cave (denouement) and then it transitions immediately into Luke finding Dagobah (yay) the crash landing (uh oh), the brief threat to artoo (climax), then whew he's okay (denouement) and so on and so forth it keeps going through the whole movie with the denouement of the previous scene transitioning right into the beginning of the next one, cued by the music. From the shorter sequences like the snowspeeder looking for Han and Luke to the longer ones like Cloud City (are we unwelcome here too > Hmm maybe Lando's alright >betrayal > race to save Han > escape) Overall rating of the story aside, purely technically-speaking it's a near perfectly engineered roller coaster ride. Hope this small 'lifting of the curtain' doesn't take enjoyment away from anyone but it's a big part of why people have this ineffable 'it's the best one' reaction to Empire.
A case of both sides being right because all of this comes from poor writing, quickly solved by adding something as simple as 'except for the fighter ports this is the only way in and out'. Which also plants the idea of a fighter attack in the audience's mind and adds suspense/anticipation.
One of the real questions to ask is why they wrote the rocks as being the relatively loose product of a rockslide.
Would it have been sillier to have it be a solid rock face that she explodes? Of course. So they go, okay so let's make it a rockslide so people don't laugh.
FWIW, it all comes from writing from 'moments' without proper setup.
Yes and no.
I didn't have a issue with his brief temptation from a character point of view with the development they have given the characters in the universe (from good vs evil to more grey-areas), but I found it weird that he'd think about it for so long and have the temptation waver just before striking when he was standing right above him.
Surely if you think about killing your student because you sense a darkness in him, you don't contemplate it anymore once you're standing there ready to strike? You'll thoroughly consider the situation before acting and then going through with your decision.
This is actually a good catch.
Felt very annoyed with Holdo holding back her plan and were in agreement with those saying that if she really wanted to just keep it tight she could have taken Poe to the side and tell him she has a plan, but wanted to be wary of a traitor. After all he's been a key part of the resistance survival even just in this film alone. While I don't feel the stuff you talked about completely takes the blame away from the writing flaws, I think it's better than nothing as a excuse for why it went like it did.
@Revan
In my mind the novels etc are fan-fics. If they jumped in right now and made one into film how well would it sell? Nothing is established to the masses and it would feel like they're starting from scratch so that depth simply doesn't exist for 90 percent of its audience.
They could flesh Snoke out with 10 novels but he'll always be that under developed bad guy who had minimal screen time in the trilogy. .
In my mind its their version of comic books v movie universe, the books try and add depth to the franchise but it's still all about the Skywalkers and a death star meanace that is cruising the galaxy.
It really is surprising how superficial it is but thats the reality of billion dollar movie franchises I suppose.
In my mind the novels etc are fan-fics. If they jumped in right now and made one into film how well would it sell? Nothing is established to the masses and it would feel like they're starting from scratch so that depth simply doesn't exist for 90 percent of its audience.
They could flesh Snoke out with 10 novels but he'll always be that under developed bad guy who had minimal screen time in the trilogy. .
In my mind its their version of comic books v movie universe, the books try and add depth to the franchise but it's still all about the Skywalkers and a death star meanace that is cruising the galaxy.
It really is surprising how superficial it is but thats the reality of billion dollar movie franchises I suppose.
So are the new movies, if we go by that. Lucas told his story, which was done and has nothing to do with these movies.
I think that the story of Kotor/Tor games, The Thrawn trilogy and the Darth Bane trilogy is far better than the story of the new movies, so most likely would have sold well. To be fair, you can make a movie with a giant shit as the only frame, put the Star Wars logo there and it would still reach a billion dollars.
Adam Driver's a proper actor though. If he's coming across as whiny teen then that's how he's being directed. Christensen can't act his way out of a paper bag. Big difference.
The EU is garbage, it's just full of stories where the author went 'how bullshit can I make this new character?' with a few sprinklings of decency throughout - like Thrawn.
He's not had the same awful dialogue, or an extremely weird and creepy romance plot. There's a certain self-awareness to his sort of whinyness - he wants to be Vader, but we know he's failing to live up to that. Anakin in the prequel trilogy was just shite.
That's exactly what they should have done re 'there's almost no one left to trust/all hope is lost' and from there it's very easy to tie it in to the DJ and Kylo/Snoke stories and in particular the 'what exactly are you in this fight for/why are you here? theme.
The kicker here is that they themselves were aware of it. They have in the movie for example Leia chiding Poe about this fight isn't about being a 'hero/deified hero' and her 'what are you looking at me for?' line, the Luke/Rey 'why are you here' line. As in, are you here to 'make a difference?' They had these things and miniscule credit where it's due, they wanted these things to resonate. And all of the valid critiques from the big ones to the nitpicky ones trace back to how they wrote the movie around certain moments without interweaving them properly. And then if you do it right the Luke thing and the Rose thing all work universally onscreen and they have their cake and eat it too because they've set up the 'no one left to trust everyone's in it for themselves' properly.
In their defense, writing these moments is easy; it's connecting them all economically to produce a story that fires on multiple levels that is very very, very, very, very, very hard. They came close to being close.
Spot on. I'd high five you if I could. In Empire, if you watch the film with the knowledge that Luke is Vader's son, every conversation Vader has with the Emperor is him potentially shielding Luke from the Emperor. Also 'testing' the carbonite on Han in case it's a process that might kill Luke. Vader's motivations are dual up until the 'join me' scene and buried underneath the plot point of "Vader wants Luke" (The Rebels are there and Skywalker is with them) to the point it's imperceptible in the plot and it's a part of why Empire 'works'.
Also in terms of Kylo's character, one of the key places they messed up was not showing him having new 'dark side?' apprentices. For example Rey's about to kill one of the Red Guards but he stops her from killing that specific one and his/her mask is removed and reveal a new character and he/she kneels before Kylo when the fight is over. That way you force him to grow beyond his own personal foibles in not just being the new 'Supreme Leader' but also having to keep it together enough that he can groom others and also establish a new threat going forward. From there there's also a thousand other details - you can then have Rey responding in a 'you said I was special did you just want me for another in your pack/you're pathetic no different from attention/power seeking behavior' and them the contrast Kylo between Luke and how the latter is implying that the very notion of having a master - this dominant/weaker - relationship is incorrect in the eyes of the Force therefore making her go, 'maybe Luke was right' and forcing from her a dramatic choice etc.
Anyhow that's one of the many possible ways they could have developed him while getting the added bonus of some established anticipation going forward with him and his side vs. Rey and hers. Bottom line really good pointing out of Kylo's one-dimensional writing.
I actually think they could make Roses character a big one for the final in the trilogy and give Finn a proper sending off by letting him sacrifice himself to blow up the bashing-cannon thing. The voice of "are you here to do a difference" would have been answered. Finn would've been shown as a proper hero who went from coward in the first order to the hero and reason the resistance was able to survive a clear end and on top of that hammer home for Rose that she's lost two people she cares for who sacrificed themselves for the cause. She could have used that to motivate or to reign in someone with poor decision making in the final movie and it would be more enjoyable for me (i assume) than what Rose/Rey and Finns love story will be.
Mind, I'm able to enjoy a lot of movies, this is one of them. But I do think it's a flawed one.
If there was no prequels then the Emperor would have as little back story as Snoke.
That's really good and not to imply you don't know this but killing Finn off is a FREAOUIKING hard decision to make (especially from a company as big as Disney). All vowels in there for magnitude of decision. Even without the killing the black guy shenanigans that would ensue. That being said, you can make his sendoff even better if you change things in the first half of the film but that' just way too long to discuss.
If they make it like you did, it's great and it works, end of. Show Rose watching Poe die - perhaps in vain, work that scene right and you get a huge response from the audience. (Hell, I'd have cried.) Next movie you can use it to develop Rose, Poe, Rey , Kylo etc.
End of story and you can ignore the rest of this post.
But on the other hand, if they don't kill him off and use the Rose-ramming going forward, it can actually still be good and not ridiculous as it is now. We're going to win by saving the ones we love... Meanwhile literally a cannon is seconds away from blasting everyone left that they love to smithereens. It's ridiculous. (RLM are the only prominent critics I've seen point this out. It doesn't work emotionally.)
Working within the guidelines of having to keep the scene, then techincally, the Rose line should have not been in this movie but somewhere in the next one.(Postponing Rose's reply to Finn's question creates suspense and engages the audience. Also, for this to really work you have to reverse the 'Now it's worth it' exchange after the casino sequence, with Rose saying 'I got to punch these rich assholes' casino in the face. It was worth it.' and Finn being the one to 'free' the horse and being 'Now it's worth it,' at which point she plausibly starts to have feelings for him)
Back to the Rose-ramming scene, Finn can ask 'Why did you do that?' but we don't get her answer until the next one, after we've actually seen enough of them together to plausibly believe she could love him.
And in this one, the scene progresses as:
he asks the question, she doesn't reply, he made his sacrifice, she made hers, a bunch of stormtroopers run up a-la the ROTJ bunker scene with Han and Leia and Poe puts himself between them - he's a fantastic actor, he can pull this off without it being cheesy - and they're about to be executed by stormtroopers when the stormtroopers all go flying or their weapons don't fire or they all crumple into balls or something and then immediately segue into the 'we've sent out the transmission but there's no response there's no hope' Luke appearance scene and because the audience has seen the directly preceeding moment, the audience is all NUH UH YOU'RE GOING TO BE OKAY LUKE IS HERE feck YES AND YOU feckERS ARE ALL IN DEEP feckING SHIT and then we get that tender moment with him and Leia.
Again, this is from someone who thinks Luke's overall handling is ridiculous but we're working within the guidelines of not altering the scenes they already have. (And the current film has the sequence down but the timings and transitions are all off. Duck and swan and all that)
Here's another part where they fecked up using that Rose line within their own constructs:
Removal of that 'Love' line makes Finn's covering of her with the blanket more poignant: I don't know why you did what you did, but yeah...here. Get better. I was you one movie ago. This shows that line without telling it. It says the line without Rose having to say the line. We're not going to win by blowing shit up but by taking care of things.
It's unconfident writing that says these things outloud and the audience can sense it every time.
Again, they wrote a lot of decent 'moments', they just did an abominable job of creating tension/anticipation/fulfillment.
Anyway back up to the first part of the post and giving Finn die can absolutely work.
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I really think that was how he is supposed to be portrayed. I'm guessing the final film will be set many years in the future and we'll see a more mature leader version of him. It will allow for Leia to die offscreen of old age and for the resistance to build up a considerable fleet to pose a threat.
If they had a plan from the start they could have gotten Boyega a not-killed role if they worried about that. Hell, he could have gotten the role og Poe or even Rose (would naturally demand a fair lot of rewriting). I understand that the "tradition" of killing the black guy is something that should be avoided, and my comments are only meant to reflect how i would have liked the story to go, doesn't have to be the specific actors in those roles.
Yes Luke's charecter change is a bit weird when compared to the original trilogy.
But then, so it's the entire premise of this third trilogy. Why are the rebels in the third gen even similar to those of the original gen? Why had the galaxy fallen under control of the sith lords again? Why did the 'rebels' fail to stop it from a position of strength?
In the original trilogy, we didnt need to know how Darth Vadar and the Emperor became all powerful rulers of the galaxy. In the second gen, this was carefully and painstakingly explained over three movies.
But betwen then and now the good guys lost control of the galaxy again, to the point where only a handful of rebels remain
But then, so it's the entire premise of this third trilogy. Why are the rebels in the third gen even similar to those of the original gen? Why had the galaxy fallen under control of the sith lords again? Why did the 'rebels' fail to stop it from a position of strength?
In the original trilogy, we didnt need to know how Darth Vadar and the Emperor became all powerful rulers of the galaxy. In the second gen, this was carefully and painstakingly explained over three movies.
But betwen then and now the good guys lost control of the galaxy again, to the point where only a handful of rebels remain
Well they are some of the same people in many cases.
Did they ever really win? The killed Vader and the Emperor but there's a chain of command and surely hundreds of wannabes ready to step in and take their place.
I don;t know that they had a position of strength against a galactic army. they had a huge win but there were plenty to step in. The First Order are using their same ships as well. Same bad guys, new name.
Indeed.
But the republic definitely existed again for a while, at least in part. But that doesn't actually matter because it *felt* like the good guys had won at the end of RotJ. Part of the galaxy falling again isnt so bad, but the scale we saw in the movie was jarring.
But in the same way, the gslaxy has changed and like has changed. He wasn't actually going to kill Ren, but a hell of a lot happened in between eps 6 and eps 7 that we don't know too much about
That would make sense yeah. So far I don't like Ren. Also didn't like his interactions with Rey (who I thought did a very good job). Too much cringe.
Yeah, it's complicated and not easy. Giving him the Rose angle WRT Rey would definitely work and as you say would involve removing Poe/Rose. At the end of the day it's about connecting what you've decided to go with so that the audience finds it fulfilling.
Again operating under the strict rules of sticking with the scenes they kept: Making Rose's love for Finn unrequited, killing Finn, and then Roes and Rey's relationship in ep. IX a 'he loved you (Rey), I think' thing.
Another opportunity they dropped is
Finn and Rose's time together leading to Finn side with the downtrodden Rose's of the universe and hence him NOT hugging Rey but brushing past her after her display of power at the 'boulder removal' scene and then when she watches him put the blanket on Rose it creates tension going forward and can inform and affect Rey's development as she learns the whole 'with great wisdom comes great sorrow/did you think being a Jedi master means you just show up and blow up the empire/this is not going to go the way you think etc'.
It's a very involved process.
It's a very involved process.
It's very clear from your posts that you're not the type of person to be insensitive to that and I tried to point that out in the last reply.
People are being criticized for the 'how I would have liked the story to go' thing when what's actually happening is that criticisms like yours are pointing out technical flaws in the storytelling dead on and are absolutely correct to do so.
Also can you join United, feck Real.
I told my agent to get Woodward on the phone, but he was busy on the line with someone.
Think his name was Alex Sandro or something like that.
I joke of course, to those who were wondering.
Honestly, I think it's a mix of people. Some just want to see a better directed movie or characters that try to act according to their beliefs and will comment on that, but some clearly go the extra mile and just spews hate or believe everything to be a major political thing. I also think a lot of people, when it comes to Star Wars, are blinded by nostalgia. I myself for example don't hate the prequels like most Star Wars fans do, I even manage to enjoy watching them from time to time. But they came out when I was young and everything was new, I didn't start watching the original trilogy before after I had seen the prequels at a friends place so I never felt that they 'fecked up Vader'.
I try to not be insensitive on stuff I know to be sensitive issues, but all my life I've lived in a village of 2-3k people with the town it is outside of and including it being of 10k people. In the start of my 20s i moved to a town of 20k and I still live here so I don't really have experience of big-city life or anything of the sort. Most of my 20s I've spent at hospitals as well so I can't really include my 20k population town as a experience. In other words I'm bound to seem insensitive at some point due to a lack of knowledge. I've discussed with Villain on here for example on the issues of racism and DotA on LGBTQ issues in order to at least have two people i can talk to who have experience with those issues that won't view my "stupid" questions as intentionally insensitive so i can try to learn more and ask as many questions I feel are needed to get some sort of grasp. The Caf is absolutely fantastic in that respect.
I do think we agree on a lot of the potential changes that could be done to the movie. Ultimately for me, it's still a movie I could watch again at home with my girl on a Star Wars marathon. Uncertain how I'd feel with the first in this trilogy however if they decide to go with the changes to the story they have done in this one. Guess I'll know the next time we watch The Force Awakens.
I told my agent to get Woodward on the phone, but he was busy on the line with someone.
Think his name was Alex Sandro or something like that.
I joke of course, to those who were wondering.
Honestly, I think it's a mix of people. Some just want to see a better directed movie or characters that try to act according to their beliefs and will comment on that, but some clearly go the extra mile and just spews hate or believe everything to be a major political thing. I also think a lot of people, when it comes to Star Wars, are blinded by nostalgia. I myself for example don't hate the prequels like most Star Wars fans do, I even manage to enjoy watching them from time to time. But they came out when I was young and everything was new, I didn't start watching the original trilogy before after I had seen the prequels at a friends place so I never felt that they 'fecked up Vader'...
Oh boy, there's a lot of those, and here in America they can be downright fanatical in every sense of the word. It's pretty much a religion. But in the case of the major criticisms that are coming out re TFA and TLJ, all lead back to the poor writing and are very valid.
Not to derail the thread
but I have family that lives in a place like that and while I could be wrong I'm pretty sure I know what you're hinting at. When I visit them I've seen kids 11, 12 years old shouting 'you fecking black cnut' at a black people (of which there are very few), seen them yell 'ching chong ching ching' shit at a what they call take-away delivery man in that area etc. and I've gone 'wow, it really is pretty blatant in places like this.'Can't be easy if you're one of the odd men out. Great that you feel an internet forum is fantastic in that respect!
I thought those were the best part of the movie. Except the shirtless scene and the joke it was needed for. I've got a few new wrinkles from the cringe expression that followed.
I really liked the Ren character until the last part of the movie. His "this is all bullshit, let's start over" idea is spot on. Then Rey says no and he seems to revert back to square one - the Vader wannabe that we first meet. That was quite pointless. He's not intimidating, I don't know why they had him end up in that role.
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Oh, no. I've not seen stuff like that. I mean, I can see outright racism or sexism like that and know it's just plain wrong, blatant stuff. But I'm not yet able to by myself see it where it's under layers. I don't understand dogwhistling (or whatever the term I've read on here a lot of times is called) for example because that kind of stuff is totally foreign to me. In my village if someone didn't like you, they said so. If you asked why you'd get the reason why. People were dicks but they were honest dicks in that sense, they rarely used stuff outside their points to be more hurtful.Oh boy, there's a lot of those, and here in America they can be downright fanatical in every sense of the word. It's pretty much a religion. But in the case of the major criticisms that are coming out re TFA and TLJ, all lead back to the poor writing and are very valid.
Not to derail the thread
Can't be easy if you're one of the odd men out. Great that you feel an internet forum is fantastic in that respect!
But the Star Wars fanaticism I've noticed even over here. If it's new, it's great. If it's the prequels, it's shit and if it's the originals it's the bible.
Lol, my bad. Thought you were still talking about the 'killing of the black guy' angle and hinting at the racism thing growing up in a assumedly predominantly-white European small-town.
Ahh, no. I've just noticed how normal it is in for example horror movies to kill off the blond girl and the black guy first and how that has become a trope that is a issue for actors that falls into both categories, and how the standard trope seems to have had a negative effect that others have commented on but I've not yet been able to wrap my head around.
Fascinating interview. - Mark doesn't sound totally convinced with Ryan's vision.