Solskjaer's legacy and his future

anant said:
Unlikely that would be the case as Ole got 1.41 Ppg in the league this season. So, Rangnick needs just 6 more points here on. However, the concerning bit is when you account for the fixture difficulty here. Ole had faced 3 of the big 6 in those 12 games, Carrick faced the other two. Rangnick has so far faced just 2 of the big 6 in his 15 games in charge so far.

And we're comparing this against this season of Ole, where we know things went tits up.
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Well I wasn't counting only league games to be fair but matches in all competitions, simply the 20 games before Rangnick and 20 games under him.

In all competitions it's currently:

P20 W9 D4 L7 Pre Ralf
P20 W9 D7 L4 Post Ralf

So marginally better but considering just how bad we were this season under Ole and the run of fixtures he had when he took over he could and really should have achieved better results.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Fair enough. Though 'd insist you are wrong. We had a wrong man running footballing affairs. Period. It doesn't matter what quality of boss you put under him they were doomed to fail. Best thing that has happened is he left.

Not if we haven't solved the support crew above him. Currently I'm optimistic we have. But time will tell
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I'm looking at Liverpool - did anyone think the club there was well run, and had the right crew, before Klopp arrived? I think not. Which is why I believe a manager can make a huge difference.

Ofcourse, if people interfere with the manager's work, then even the great ones won't be able to save the club. But I don't think Woodward was that bad. He appointed the wrong managers. They did the rest of the damage.
 
lex talionis said:
The unquestioned faith Ole had in Fred and McTominay did him in. He suffered from other deficiencies as manager, but this above all stuck the fork in his own back.
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He simply wasn't good enough for this level, that's what did him in.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
So what do you think is our cause of the don't give a feck attitude? It can't be because the players aren't good enough if we were the come back Kings which in itself shows a weakness if we were going behind so much.

Could it be it's because now the players have to fight for a place in the team? Whereas under Ole their position in the team was almost guaranteed regardless of form which obviously makes for a happier workplace? Ole defending them through thick and thin to such a point the players didn't care how they played knowing there'd be no consequences? Rumours of the players complaining about having to do extra work or stay later in training sums up everything wrong at our club. If that isn't a weak mentality then I don't know what is.
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It could be a combo of many things. I think the person who is most responsible for our mentality currently is the ... Current manager. That's a shocking reveal in the forum lately.

I appreciate what you are saying though. My best guess is that the players don't respect Ralf and aren't playing for him. I believe they played for ole for a long time.
 
stevoc said:
It's crazy to me that there's people who for whatever reason seem to think Ralf's been doing a great job.

By the end of the season it's likely that our form under Rangnick will be much worse than under Solskjaer (this season) which got him rightfully sacked. Right now after 20 games it's only fractionally better despite having had a much easier run og games for much of it.
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I thinks it's the overhaul many people have advocated for for many years... Only there isn't really any overhaul, just Ralf trying different players because the performances have been poor. I have respect for Ralf and love his interviews and think he talks sense....but on the evidence he isn't a good coach... And, unpopular as it might be, probably a worse coach than ole at getting results. Maybe better than ole at wierd intangibles like intensity, interviews and sticking it to the players
 
Crashoutcassius said:
It could be a combo of many things. I think the person who is most responsible for our mentality currently is the ... Current manager. That's a shocking reveal in the forum lately.

I appreciate what you are saying though. My best guess is that the players don't respect Ralf and aren't playing for him. I believe they played for ole for a long time.
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I don't think Rangnick should be anywhere near the permanent managers but that's not to say I don't appreciate him trying to instill a different type of philosophy more akin to what we were used to as a United supporter. I do agree with you that the players don't respect Ralf but I honestly do think that says more about our players than it does about Ralf hence my weak mentality comment.

Some i think are buying into it. Fred and McT as a unit seem to have upped their game even if they are limited players moreso because they seem to have the mentality to want to succeed. Sancho we're seeing glimpses of the player we know he can be although that could be put down to getting more used to the pace of the PL but players like Pogba, Rashford and maybe Shaw look like they've downed tools which is completely unacceptable. Even Ronaldo fecking off to Portugal for the City game shows a complete lack of respect not only to the manager but to everyone involved at the club, supporters included. There's just so much wrong with our club a total shakeup is needed and personally I believe that Ralf, if he's given free reign could help in that process when he's moved upstairs. If the club suddenly decides that we don't need his services then we really are in the shit.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
I thinks it's the overhaul many people have advocated for for many years... Only there isn't really any overhaul, just Ralf trying different players because the performances have been poor. I have respect for Ralf and love his interviews and think he talks sense....but on the evidence he isn't a good coach... And, unpopular as it might be, probably a worse coach than ole at getting results. Maybe better than ole at wierd intangibles like intensity, interviews and sticking it to the players
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You mean Ole who said he wasn't a coach-manager, but a "leader-manager", delegating the coaching to Carrick and McKenna? Ole who had us in relegation form when Ralf was appointed? I think you have to factor in how toxic our dressing room has been all season and add the fact Rangnick has no leverage in that he's here for a few months and most of these players aren't buying into his style of play (as stated by Mitten).

Give both of them a blank canvas and Rangnick will build a side performing attractive high intensity football and Ole will assemble some players his agent has on his books. I can understand if people feel underwhelmed with the results/performances under Rangnick, but in context there is no way on earth he's a worse coach than Ole.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
I thinks it's the overhaul many people have advocated for for many years... Only there isn't really any overhaul, just Ralf trying different players because the performances have been poor. I have respect for Ralf and love his interviews and think he talks sense....but on the evidence he isn't a good coach... And, unpopular as it might be, probably a worse coach than ole at getting results. Maybe better than ole at wierd intangibles like intensity, interviews and sticking it to the players
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Yeah he's much more entertaining in interviews than Ole I'll give him that. I don't mind Ralf I certainly don't dislike him but some seem to forget he was never a great coach to begin with there's a reason he hasn't been coaching in years and at 63 he's probably past it. People can delude themselves that Ralf is achieving something but we're just not doing well under his stewardship in the second half of this season. Morale across the board is in the shitter and the club has become a bigger circus behind the scenes since he came in, in no small part due to his inability to think about the shit that he says in interviews/press conferences before he says them.
 
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Forevergiggs1 said:
I don't think Rangnick should be anywhere near the permanent managers but that's not to say I don't appreciate him trying to instill a different type of philosophy more akin to what we were used to as a United supporter. I do agree with you that the players don't respect Ralf but I honestly do think that says more about our players than it does about Ralf hence my weak mentality comment.

Some i think are buying into it. Fred and McT as a unit seem to have upped their game even if they are limited players moreso because they seem to have the mentality to want to succeed. Sancho we're seeing glimpses of the player we know he can be although that could be put down to getting more used to the pace of the PL but players like Pogba, Rashford and maybe Shaw look like they've downed tools which is completely unacceptable. Even Ronaldo fecking off to Portugal for the City game shows a complete lack of respect not only to the manager but to everyone involved at the club, supporters included. There's just so much wrong with our club a total shakeup is needed and personally I believe that Ralf, if he's given free reign could help in that process when he's moved upstairs. If the club suddenly decides that we don't need his services then we really are in the shit.
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What role do you envisage Ralf will be getting when he's ''moved upstairs'' that would involve him getting free reign? Free reign to do what exactly and over what period of time?

Let's not forget he's 64 in June so he's probably retiring in the next year or two. And bearing in mind United already have Murtagh as football director, Fletcher as technical director with rumours that Paul Mitchell might be brought in to work alongside Murtagh in a some sort of sporting director or DOF role. Here's a quote on the official site from Murtagh on Rangnick's role at the club, so I don't think any of us should get our hopes up that Rangnick will get a position with any real power in June.

“Everyone at the club is looking forward to working with him during the season ahead, and then for a further two years in his advisory role.”
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Amazing to see posters throwing Ralf under the bus while he's only been here 6 months considering they consistently told us Ole needed more time even after buying dross like AWB and overseeing a lot of embarrassing displays in big moments - Ralf hasn't even bought a player and is trying to assemble a team from a squad Ole and Co left which is probably the worst squad we've had for decades.

Ralf is a stop gap, a chance for the club to assess the situation, if the job does go to Ralf then by all means, have a go at the hierarchy - hopefully we learned from the Ole mistake though.
 
The problem with Ralf is that the players don't respect him as they know he's only a temporary coach, it's like what happened to Pellegrini in Manchester City when everyone knew Guardiola was coming the next season.

Ralf has been undermined by this very fact, wasn't allowed to purchase a single player in winter but is still keeping the team afloat and trying to coach something into them after 3 seasons of pure anarchy.
 
stevoc said:
What role do you envisage Ralf will be getting when he's ''moved upstairs'' that would involve him getting free reign? Free reign to do what exactly and over what period of time?

Let's not forget he's 64 in June so he's probably retiring in the next year or two. And bearing in mind United already have Murtagh as football director, Fletcher as technical director with rumours that Paul Mitchell might be brought in to work alongside Murtagh in a some sort of sporting director or DOF role. Here's a quote on the official site from Murtagh on Rangnick's role at the club, so I don't think any of us should get our hopes up that Rangnick will get a position with any real power in June.
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Roles at United are quite hard to define due to some of them multi tasking but I envisage Ralf would be a direct consultant to Murtough. We've had a lot of noise coming from the club about restructuring. Ralf has more than proved himself in his ability of building clubs from the bottom and make no mistake, that's where we are at the minute. I would hope that Ralf would have a big input in ripping up the blueprint we've been experimenting with the last 3 years and actually bring some structure to the club because he's the only one experienced enough to do it.

The time frame already mentioned is 6 months interim followed by 2 years consultancy so I've no reason to suspect anything different if the club are serious about getting back to the top.
 
Bastian said:
You mean Ole who said he wasn't a coach-manager, but a "leader-manager", delegating the coaching to Carrick and McKenna? Ole who had us in relegation form when Ralf was appointed? I think you have to factor in how toxic our dressing room has been all season and add the fact Rangnick has no leverage in that he's here for a few months and most of these players aren't buying into his style of play (as stated by Mitten).

Give both of them a blank canvas and Rangnick will build a side performing attractive high intensity football and Ole will assemble some players his agent has on his books. I can understand if people feel underwhelmed with the results/performances under Rangnick, but in context there is no way on earth he's a worse coach than Ole.
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I guess my point is - my evidence for saying he is probably better in terms of results us results, your evidence is circumstantial and largely intangible and hypothetical. Ole had bad results for a spell that got him sacked .. Ralf hasn't had better results in all comps than that form, in a far easier run of games. Kinda incredible
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
I don't think Rangnick should be anywhere near the permanent managers but that's not to say I don't appreciate him trying to instill a different type of philosophy more akin to what we were used to as a United supporter. I do agree with you that the players don't respect Ralf but I honestly do think that says more about our players than it does about Ralf hence my weak mentality comment.

Some i think are buying into it. Fred and McT as a unit seem to have upped their game even if they are limited players moreso because they seem to have the mentality to want to succeed. Sancho we're seeing glimpses of the player we know he can be although that could be put down to getting more used to the pace of the PL but players like Pogba, Rashford and maybe Shaw look like they've downed tools which is completely unacceptable. Even Ronaldo fecking off to Portugal for the City game shows a complete lack of respect not only to the manager but to everyone involved at the club, supporters included. There's just so much wrong with our club a total shakeup is needed and personally I believe that Ralf, if he's given free reign could help in that process when he's moved upstairs. If the club suddenly decides that we don't need his services then we really are in the shit.
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Yeah I agree with all that. I think he should be the top football person at the club. I really believe that. I'd be disappointed if he was the coach
 
Amir said:
I'm looking at Liverpool - did anyone think the club there was well run, and had the right crew, before Klopp arrived? I think not. Which is why I believe a manager can make a huge difference.
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I see your point,. Personally I believe Liverpool under the new honors was being run well.There was a clear progress in manager recruitment from how the went form Hodgson, to Dalglish to Rodgers then Klopp. They weren't changing footballing direction like us under woodward and repeatedly returning to the starting line.They were clearly going higher up the path they chose til they landed on someone as good as Klopp. They also never interfered in managerial work

Amir said:
Ofcourse, if people interfere with the manager's work, then even the great ones won't be able to save the club. But I don't think Woodward was that bad. He appointed the wrong managers. They did the rest of the damage.
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No mate, Woodward was awful. Always thought he knew more than the football people, openly intervened in players favours undermining his managers. On top of picking managers without a long term plan in mind. Even hire an entire P.R. arm to lie to us why he wasn't supporting particular managers in the market. Best thing that happened to us was the super league debacle. It enabled us to finally get rid of him
 
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Forevergiggs1 said:
So what do you think is our cause of the don't give a feck attitude? It can't be because the players aren't good enough if we were the come back Kings which in itself shows a weakness if we were going behind so much.

Could it be it's because now the players have to fight for a place in the team? Whereas under Ole their position in the team was almost guaranteed regardless of form which obviously makes for a happier workplace? Ole defending them through thick and thin to such a point the players didn't care how they played knowing there'd be no consequences? Rumours of the players complaining about having to do extra work or stay later in training sums up everything wrong at our club. If that isn't a weak mentality then I don't know what is.
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Interesting.
I personally believe at the start of the season they didn't believe in the new direction Ole tried to take the club. Form counter attacking to more proactive, requiring more of the players, especially defensively in terms of attacking players. On top of that his favorites (AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Bruno, Rashford) largely lost form and kept being picked, resulting in a dressing room envy and players looking out for themselves rather than each other as result plummeted, resulting in hat we see today.
I also believe football in many way is like long distance running. You start the race with the wrong pace and wrong mentality, its like swimming against the current to try and change around half way. The only thing that night save you if if you have a core of player who were used to the highest standards before and a crop of youngsters coming through schooled in them standards. I when you are like us now, you'll be us up and down as we under Ragnick and Spurs under Conte have been, In spite of your manager's best efforts.....
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
Roles at United are quite hard to define due to some of them multi tasking but I envisage Ralf would be a direct consultant to Murtough. We've had a lot of noise coming from the club about restructuring. Ralf has more than proved himself in his ability of building clubs from the bottom and make no mistake, that's where we are at the minute. I would hope that Ralf would have a big input in ripping up the blueprint we've been experimenting with the last 3 years and actually bring some structure to the club because he's the only one experienced enough to do it.

The time frame already mentioned is 6 months interim followed by 2 years consultancy so I've no reason to suspect anything different if the club are serious about getting back to the top.
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Well it'll be interesting to see what happens if he is given a lot of power to restructure the club behind the scenes but personally I don't think he'll have that big a role in the club once this season is over.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Interesting.
I personally believe at the start of the season they didn't believe in the new direction Ole tried to take the club. Form counter attacking to more proactive, requiring more of the players, especially defensively in terms of attacking players. On top of that his favorites (AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Bruno, Rashford) largely lost form and kept being picked, resulting in a dressing room envy and players looking out for themselves rather than each other as result plummeted, resulting in hat we see today.
I also believe football in many way is like long distance running. You start the race with the wrong pace and wrong mentality, its like swimming against the current to try and change around half way. The only thing that night save you if if you have a core of player who were used to the highest standards before and a crop of youngsters coming through schooled in them standards. I when you are like us now, you'll be us up and down as we under Ragnick and Spurs under Conte have been, In spite of your manager's best efforts.....
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I like your analogy on long distance running and agree with it. A team that flies off the blocks normally fall quite drastically. Look at City last season and even Arsenal this season. Started badly, picked up the pace and kept it going more in Citys case that they're well coached and each player has a strong mentality.

On us, I believe signing Ronaldo, Varane and to a degree Sancho took Ole out of his comfort zone. He got us results before playing a certain system with the players more or less buying into it. With these signings he was expected to play a different way and either he just wasn't good enough to play another system or as you say the players didn't buy into the new system and basically threw Ole under the bus. Maybe Ronaldo and Varane being winners they didn't like what they were seeing which could of caused friction within the dressing room.

Either way. What he are left with is a mess. I don't want Ralf as a permanent manager but I do think people are being harsh with him when he has to completely change the mentality within the club and double harsh because the players are basically throwing him under the bus as well.

I have to admit that I was one of those that thought by bringing Ralf in he would have us in a much better position. I was wrong but one thing I think it has proved are our players are a bunch of cnuts. The blueprint the club have been working on the last 3 years needs to be ripped up with better foundations laid. Right now I'm finally excited with a new manager coming in that things can change. If it means getting rid of half the squad then I wouldn't have any problem with it whatsoever. No more poster boys just a squad prepared to give what it takes to get us back to the top.
 
stevoc said:
Well it'll be interesting to see what happens if he is given a lot of power to restructure the club behind the scenes but personally I don't think he'll have that big a role in the club once this season is over.
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TBH I'm starting to have my doubts as well when rumours started flying around he was to be sacked. Maybe the club don't like the way he speaks publically about internal matters and have decided that he isn't the man after all. If that's the case then the club deserves what it gets because Ralf does have the experience for the job at hand. The only one at the club I may add.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
TBH I'm starting to have my doubts as well when rumours started flying around he was to be sacked. Maybe the club don't like the way he speaks publically about internal matters and have decided that he isn't the man after all. If that's the case then the club deserves what it gets because Ralf does have the experience for the job at hand. The only one at the club I may add.
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Well whatever his role is next season that is something he will have to cut out. Anything about United is big news and clickbait gold for papers/websites, journalists publish enough negative stuff about the club on a daily basis, they shouldn't have a club employee helping them.
 
stevoc said:
Well whatever his role is next season that is something he will have to cut out. Anything about United is big news and clickbait gold for papers/websites, journalists publish enough negative stuff about the club on a daily basis, they shouldn't have a club employee helping them.
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I agree on board level but I don't have any problems with him speaking out on the players as interim without throwing them under the bus of course. It's past time they're held accountable for their actions/performances.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
I agree on board level but I don't have any problems with him speaking out on the players as interim without throwing them under the bus of course. It's past time they're held accountable for their actions/performances.
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Yeah obviously while manager he has to do interviews and conferences so will be asked a lot of questions. Ralf for all his years in the game has never experienced the level of media interest he has at United and it shows. And as a result at times he's said way too much and a lot of the stuff he's said hasn't exactly been helpful as it's been spun and created unnecessary negative press about the club. But I was speaking more about when he isn't manager, once he's in a more senior position he will have to curb airing his opinion on the club in public.
 
His legacy as a manager is going from bad to worse. The players he signed apart from Sancho and Bruno do not seem to be up to the level. I really do not know if ETH is going to give that prominence to Bruno if he takes over.
 
stevoc said:
Yeah obviously while manager he has to do interviews and conferences so will be asked a lot of questions. Ralf for all his years in the game has never experienced the level of media interest he has at United and it shows. And as a result at times he's said way too much and a lot of the stuff he's said hasn't exactly been helpful as it's been spun and created unnecessary negative press about the club. But I was speaking more about when he isn't manager, once he's in a more senior position he will have to curb airing his opinion on the club in public.
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I don't think you have to worry about him talking when he's moved upstairs. How many of our background staff give interviews? Not a one. It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that stories could surface if he isn't happy whats happening behind the scenes but as I supporter I'd welcome that if the club are holding us back. The whole club needs to be held accountable. Not just the players. There's a reason we are where we are after a decade and if those reasons start to surface then I'm all for it instead of feeling like a mushroom that's always fed on shit and kept in the dark.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
I don't think you have to worry about him talking when he's moved upstairs. How many of our background staff give interviews? Not a one. It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that stories could surface if he isn't happy whats happening behind the scenes but as I supporter I'd welcome that if the club are holding us back. The whole club needs to be held accountable. Not just the players. There's a reason we are where we are after a decade and if those reasons start to surface then I'm all for it instead of feeling like a mushroom that's always fed on shit and kept in the dark.
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Indeed and that's the way it should be, if stories do start surfacing from Ralf or anyone else on the backroom staff then they should be shown the door asap. Ralf talks a good game let's hope his contributions at United will amount to more than that.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
I like your analogy on long distance running and agree with it. A team that flies off the blocks normally fall quite drastically. Look at City last season and even Arsenal this season. Started badly, picked up the pace and kept it going more in Citys case that they're well coached and each player has a strong mentality.

On us, I believe signing Ronaldo, Varane and to a degree Sancho took Ole out of his comfort zone. He got us results before playing a certain system with the players more or less buying into it. With these signings he was expected to play a different way and either he just wasn't good enough to play another system or as you say the players didn't buy into the new system and basically threw Ole under the bus. Maybe Ronaldo and Varane being winners they didn't like what they were seeing which could of caused friction within the dressing room.

Either way. What he are left with is a mess. I don't want Ralf as a permanent manager but I do think people are being harsh with him when he has to completely change the mentality within the club and double harsh because the players are basically throwing him under the bus as well.

I have to admit that I was one of those that thought by bringing Ralf in he would have us in a much better position. I was wrong but one thing I think it has proved are our players are a bunch of cnuts. The blueprint the club have been working on the last 3 years needs to be ripped up with better foundations laid. Right now I'm finally excited with a new manager coming in that things can change. If it means getting rid of half the squad then I wouldn't have any problem with it whatsoever. No more poster boys just a squad prepared to give what it takes to get us back to the top.
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I agree. I was in the same boat as regards Ralf. I also didn't realize how much our players did not understand pressing and positional play. Plus I underestimated the effect of the long distance race analogy. Im happy though Ralf is moving up stairs. Not only will he give him a chance to inform our next boss who the bad eggs are in our dressing room and the fat to trim in our squad, his expertise if our hierachy listen to him will be invaluable in helping installing a long term strategy and identity in our club
 
Foxbatt said:
His legacy as a manager is going from bad to worse. The players he signed apart from Sancho and Bruno do not seem to be up to the level. I really do not know if ETH is going to give that prominence to Bruno if he takes over.
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Bad to worse? I think it is safe to say that last weeks and months have shown what kind of players Solskjaer worked with. And coming 3rd and 2nd in his two full seasons with what we are seeing just looks better and better. Should get more credit then he does from some of you.

We all agree he needed to go this seson but it was only because you cant change 15 players. Instead you hope that new manager can bring life to some players but not even that have worked.
 
THIS!

This is Ole’s legacy now! Over £300m spent on new foundations that turned out to be nothing more than sand!
 
You can only laugh, best are those that are like sacking was a mistake lul
 
For every day it goes it shows that Solskjaet did even better job then people want to give him credit for.
 
Somebody appointed him in the first place and that somebody is getting away with everything, once again.
 
90 + 5min said:
For every day it goes it shows that Solskjaet did even better job then people want to give him credit for.
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How can you possibly qualify that statement. The wheels had well and truly fallen off by the time he was sacked and this dire set of players and their equally shocking performances is one which his finger prints are all over.
 
elnorte said:
How can you possibly qualify that statement. The wheels had well and truly fallen off by the time he was sacked and this dire set of players is one which he built and then subsequently left behind.
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Are the players really that bad. Tell me this... This question is asked and nauseum about ole... What top job is Ralf R getting after this... I'd love an answer to that question
 
90 + 5min said:
For every day it goes it shows that Solskjaet did even better job then people want to give him credit for.
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:lol: :lol: This was completely, 100% his squad of players. Had almost 3 years and spent almost half a billion pounds and all he managed to do was put us in free-fall.
 
90 + 5min said:
Bad to worse? I think it is safe to say that last weeks and months have shown what kind of players Solskjaer worked with. And coming 3rd and 2nd in his two full seasons with what we are seeing just looks better and better. Should get more credit then he does from some of you.

We all agree he needed to go this seson but it was only because you cant change 15 players. Instead you hope that new manager can bring life to some players but not even that have worked.
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Amazing, we're in this mess because of him. This is his unbalanced squad, this is his captain, this is his "cultural reboot", it was him who couldn't explain his tactics or style of play and instead brought it down to passion and desire, it was him who lost 0-5 to Liverpool, it was him who spent £400m with no trophies to show, it was him who made it okay to be mediocre because significant sections of the fanbase were stuck in sentiment.

Make no mistake, Ole set us back several years with his general incompetence, let it go man.
 
According to Ogden (Stetford Paddock interview), Rangnick wanted to know if Nkunku was within United's radar and was shocked to learn that he was not. We're talking about one of the hottest young football talent in Europe, a guy whose currently scoring as many goals as Haaland with more assists under his name. That's the recruitment overhaul the likes of Murtough and Ole had produced. Oh well, we can still unearth Kane and Rice next year
 
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