Solskjaer: Winning trophies is more of an ego thing for managers, league position is where true progress is seen

Truth is it doesn't matter what he says at the end of the day.

He can say whatever he wants as long as we win Europa. And on the flip side, no amount of talking a good game can hide crashing out of both European competitions and not winning a single trophy in 3 years. Certainly not for a club our size.

Ole has made so many cringe worthy comments that it's best to just focus on the results instead of all his talk.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Might as well sack him now instead of wasting 2 years then. He wouldn’t win a title if he was here for 20 years.

I’ve said it a million times, there’s a reason rival fans unanimously want us to keep Ole. Because he is not good enough & we will achieve nothing under him.
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They also wanted to keep Moyes, Louis and Mourinho.

I wouldn't really pay no mind to what rival fans want anyway.
 
Greck said:
Ole will do well to avoid carving out a new hall of shame niche for trophy returns per hundred million spent
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Our best manager since Fergie apparently

United after 29 games
17-18 (under huge flop Jose) - 62 points
20-21 (under huge success Ole) - 57 points

Jose trophies - 3
Van Gaal trophies - 1
Moyes trophies - 1
Ole trophies - 0

“improvement”

I’ll tell you what Ole is the best at, protecting the Glazers. He’s fantastic at that.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
As always, Ole looking out for himself.
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I mean, I don't blame him for the comment. And to an extent he's right. If we finish second this season and don't win a trophy we'll have had a better season than Arsenal did last year, for instance.

That said, he's spoken up the need for us to win a trophy/that this club is about winning stuff. He'll also be wary of wanting to overcome his semi-final hoodoo.

Basically, what he's saying here is not what the message will be behind closed door, and he's right to manage the inevitable narrative if this week goes badly.
 
The Corinthian said:
They also wanted to keep Moyes, Louis and Mourinho.

I wouldn't really pay no mind to what rival fans want anyway.
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What rival fans think about their rivals managers is actually the best reflection on genuine quality, because there’s no emotion there. Everyone knew Lampard was shit except sections of Chelsea fans. Everyone knows Ole is shit except sections of United fans. That’s why he’s the perfect appointment for the Glazers. So many United fans are blinded by sentiment that they refuse to accept that Ole isn’t very good. I wanted Chelsea to keep Lampard, but I’d love it if Pep left City, because he’s really good. No rival fan would love it if we sacked Ole, they’d all be gutted because they’d know his replacement will almost certainly be an upgrade Also, no big clubs would want Ole, in fact even mid-level clubs wouldn’t touch him, why? Because he’s not a good manager. It tells you all that you need to know.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Might as well sack him now instead of wasting 2 years then. He wouldn’t win a title if he was here for 20 years.

I’ve said it a million times, there’s a reason rival fans unanimously want us to keep Ole. Because he is not good enough & we will achieve nothing under him.
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Time will tell at the moment IMHO he has earned himself another season, but things can change very quickly in football.
Greck said:
What about option C, if he doesn't win a cup in addition to not winning the league. You can be sure Ole's tenure will be a marked disaster if he doesn't win a single trophy in 5 years. You can't just do away with anything that isn't the PL and CL. The cups are there to soften the blow of multiple fruitless seasons. We've always been able to laugh off Arsenal and tottenham even after SAF retired thanks to maintaining our winning standing in a lesser form
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Yes of course but it's not the the be all and end all, you are judged on your league posistion more than anything else, Mourinho and LVG won trophies would you class either of them as having successful reigns?
 
Longshanks said:
Time will tell at the moment IMHO he has earned himself another season, but things can change very quickly in football.



Yes of course but it's not the the be all and end all, you are judged on your league posistion more than anything else, Mourinho and LVG won trophies would you class either of them as having successful reigns?
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Mourinho got 2nd & 6th & won 3 trophies, Ole so far has got 3rd & 6th & won no trophies. So yes, right now Mourinho’s reign was considerably better. LVG got 4th & 5th & won 1 trophy, so yes, right now he’s also more successful than Ole. All 3 play utterly dog shit football & none have been successes, but Ole is the worst. He also defends the Glazers & Woodward much more than the other two & comes across as an overall much weaker man. The other 2 for all their faults had backbones.
 
Longshanks said:
Time will tell at the moment IMHO he has earned himself another season, but things can change very quickly in football.



Yes of course but it's not the the be all and end all, you are judged on your league posistion more than anything else, Mourinho and LVG won trophies would you class either of them as having successful reigns?
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I don't class any of our previous managers as having successful reigns and I don't classify Ole as being a success either. Jose however finished 2nd. if you consider Ole a success for finishing 2nd I don't know how you're going to class Jose a failure for doing the same while also winning trophies.

edit; If you want to add context and say Ole's came with more promise/optimism then said promise has to first be fulfilled in the coming season(s) before you can say he is more successful. I'm sure Jose's fans were optimistic when he finished 2nd as well. All of that is subjective, otherwise he'd have been objectively worse
 
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Greck said:
I don't class any of our previous managers as having successful reigns and I don't classify Ole as being a success either. Jose however finished 2nd. if you consider Ole a success for finishing 2nd I don't know how you're going to class Jose a failure for doing the same while also winning trophies
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Exactly. It’s almost as if they move the goalposts for Ole... :smirk:
 
Halftrack said:
The people you were responding to were specifically talking about it in the context of Ole's comments about the league being a better barometer of progress than winning cups. @justsomebloke corrected your comment about consistently winning trophies being what makes a big club by pointing out that consistently winning leagues makes you a big club. If you consistently win trophies, but all the trophies are national cups, you're not a big club. Arsenal fell out of the big club discussion 10 years ago despite consistently winning the FA cup.
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And I'm saying it isn't. The league isn't a barometer of anything unless you win trophies. A club as big as us should be aiming to win any cup its playing in, and should win them consistently while at the same time be challenging for the league. We should also be progressing at least to the last 8 of the Champions League every year and winning a national cup regularly. This talk about not winning anything and being happy with the league position is sad and way below the standards and the history of our club.
 
I’d accept that if we were challenging for trophies too. We’ve bottled many semi finals and have been no where near City or Liverpool in the past in the league. We’re just slightly better than the other shit ‘top’ teams at the moment. City will win the league by 15+ points.

The ultimate sign of progress in a team wanting to rebuild is being able to pick players that you wouldn’t want to lose no matter what. For the first time in years I’d say there’s at least 5 in our squad - I’ve not been arsed about any bar De Gea when he was good in the past. We can only build on this if they continue to perform.
 
I bet half of the people whining here didn't even bother to read his full comments. But that's what happens when one has agenda
 
Greck said:
It's a foolish comment because we were never trying to pick one in the first place. No one was pitting these two accomplishments against each other because they simply aren't competing goals. I get what he means but it's also irrelevant as a bright side
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Things Ole said today:
"Of course, we are all wanting to win trophies at this club. But sometimes a trophy can hide the other fact of what is happening at the club. It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments you might be lucky, you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors. But, of course, we're aiming to win; that's what's required in football and you're always aiming to win trophies."

" We need to see progress and, in the cup, if we perform well enough, the trophies will end up at the club again. But it's not like a trophy will say that we're back. No, it's the gradual progression and the consistency of being top of the league, in and around there, and then the odd trophy. Sometimes, a cup competition can hide the fact that you are still struggling a little bit.”

"Every manager wants to win every game and we want to fight on every front. Then it comes to a point in the season where 'ok, we can't win this or we can't achieve that success' Sometimes you might sacrifice the league for a cup run at the end. I haven't been here and felt we can down prioritise any games yet. We need to try and win every single game, every single player needs to learn how to cope with the standards and the expectations. But you will end up with trophies if you are consistent enough and sometimes lucky enough."

Apparently he doesn't care about winning cups, thinks we should only look at league position, and is happy and thinks finishing top four while not winning anything is good enough. Despite seemingly being very clear that winning cups is a sign of progress, that winning trophies is required, that we're not prioritising away anything, that we want and need to try to win everything. Weird that. Almost as if people are cherry picking quotes to satisfy their perennial need to have a go at him.
 
K Stand Knut said:
He’ll get torn to shreds for this but it has an element of truth about it
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I doubt he'll be torn to shreds about it. I think Moyes would have been but most fans like Ole so he'll get the benefit of the doubt while Moyes didn't.

I dont think fans care about what managers say. If they're winning, everything they say is cheered. If they're not, nothing they say will win people over.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
And I'm saying it isn't. The league isn't a barometer of anything unless you win trophies. A club as big as us should be aiming to win any cup its playing in, and should win them consistently while at the same time be challenging for the league. We should also be progressing at least to the last 8 of the Champions League every year and winning a national cup regularly. This talk about not winning anything and being happy with the league position is sad and way below the standards and the history of our club.
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That's just stupid. Finishing in higher positions and on higher point totals year on year is clearly a sign of a team improving and progressing. Or are you telling me Spurs made no progress at all under Pochettino, and were in fact completely stagnant for his whole tenure there? They won nothing, after all, so they can't have progressed according to your logic.

As for the rest: If you'd actually bothered to read the actual transcripts, and not just hot takes on here, you'd know that Ole said much the same as you. He said winning is required and that progress is, ultimately, best measured by consistently doing well in the league along with winning cup competitions.
 
Halftrack said:
Things Ole said today:
"Of course, we are all wanting to win trophies at this club. But sometimes a trophy can hide the other fact of what is happening at the club. It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments you might be lucky, you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors. But, of course, we're aiming to win; that's what's required in football and you're always aiming to win trophies."

" We need to see progress and, in the cup, if we perform well enough, the trophies will end up at the club again. But it's not like a trophy will say that we're back. No, it's the gradual progression and the consistency of being top of the league, in and around there, and then the odd trophy. Sometimes, a cup competition can hide the fact that you are still struggling a little bit.”

"Every manager wants to win every game and we want to fight on every front. Then it comes to a point in the season where 'ok, we can't win this or we can't achieve that success' Sometimes you might sacrifice the league for a cup run at the end. I haven't been here and felt we can down prioritise any games yet. We need to try and win every single game, every single player needs to learn how to cope with the standards and the expectations. But you will end up with trophies if you are consistent enough and sometimes lucky enough."

Apparently he doesn't care about winning cups, thinks we should only look at league position, and is happy and thinks finishing top four while not winning anything is good enough. Despite seemingly being very clear that winning cups is a sign of progress, that winning trophies is required, that we're not prioritising away anything, that we want and need to try to win everything. Weird that. Almost as if people are cherry picking quotes to satisfy their perennial need to have a go at him.
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Exactly. You can not rate Ole but at least stop bullshitting by picking and chosing from his comments. Some of the comments in this thread is disgraceful to say the least. I bet when he wins a trophy the same set will downplay that too.
 
Halftrack said:
Things Ole said today:
"Of course, we are all wanting to win trophies at this club. But sometimes a trophy can hide the other fact of what is happening at the club. It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments you might be lucky, you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors. But, of course, we're aiming to win; that's what's required in football and you're always aiming to win trophies."

" We need to see progress and, in the cup, if we perform well enough, the trophies will end up at the club again. But it's not like a trophy will say that we're back. No, it's the gradual progression and the consistency of being top of the league, in and around there, and then the odd trophy. Sometimes, a cup competition can hide the fact that you are still struggling a little bit.”

"Every manager wants to win every game and we want to fight on every front. Then it comes to a point in the season where 'ok, we can't win this or we can't achieve that success' Sometimes you might sacrifice the league for a cup run at the end. I haven't been here and felt we can down prioritise any games yet. We need to try and win every single game, every single player needs to learn how to cope with the standards and the expectations. But you will end up with trophies if you are consistent enough and sometimes lucky enough."

Apparently he doesn't care about winning cups, thinks we should only look at league position, and is happy and thinks finishing top four while not winning anything is good enough. Despite seemingly being very clear that winning cups is a sign of progress, that winning trophies is required, that we're not prioritising away anything, that we want and need to try to win everything. Weird that. Almost as if people are cherry picking quotes to satisfy their perennial need to have a go at him.
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I don't understand why you think people haven't seen these or that they change the discussion. He says we generally want to win everything but qualifies it with caveats like this; But sometimes a trophy can hide the other fact of what is happening at the club. It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments you might be lucky, you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors.

People know they're disagreeing with the qualifications he made on "we want to win everything" because it comes across as rationalizing failures and excuse making
 
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Halftrack said:
That's just stupid. Finishing in higher positions and on higher point totals year on year is clearly a sign of a team improving and progressing. Or are you telling me Spurs made no progress at all under Pochettino, and were in fact completely stagnant for his whole tenure there? They won nothing, after all, so they can't have progressed according to your logic.

As for the rest: If you'd actually bothered to read the actual transcripts, and not just hot takes on here, you'd know that Ole said much the same as you. He said winning is required and that progress is, ultimately, best measured by consistently doing well in the league along with winning cup competitions.
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You can go on defending what Ole said for as long as you want, you're not going to convince me. Pochetino was heavily talked about as progress once he got Spurs to the champions league final on a tight budget while also securing top 4. And I'd rather you left out remarks about being stupid or not. Finishing higher in the league isn't necessarily a barometer because there are parameters being ignored, Chelsea with Lampard as manager and Liverpool playing the majority of the games with no defence. If we were to win the Europa League while also maintaining top 4 this year then yes that would be progress. Which is why Ole shouldnt be playing down cups.
 
Well this thread went exactly as expected, guess in the future it will be used when/if one day we have manager that some dont like.
 
The OleOut brigade don’t actually care what Ole said or meant, they know what he meant but choose to ignore it and go with the worst possible interpretation of sentences taken out of context because they don’t like the man, it’s as simple as that. There’s no point in arguing with people so disingenuous.
 
Explains why the club under Ole has not been clutch in going beyond semi's. I actually think cup success gives a manager more sustainability in the long run. If Solskjaer for example goes 36 months finishing in the top 4 then the following season fails he's likely sacked. However if he has two trophies in those higher seasonal finishes he's got more credibility in the merit of recieving further time.

Generally the best managers find a balance, it shouldn't be to focus on a league position and squander cup competition especially when the club isn't challenging for the league. Hence there being squad depth and investments into players who are rotated throughout a campaign. Smaller teams aren't afforded this luxury so they would echo sentiments such as what Ole has expressed. If there's any evidence of a lack of winning mentality this is a highlight. I know Ole won plenty in his club career but there's a huge difference in the significance of a managerial role compared to player responsibility.
 
welshwingwizard said:
A trophy when you are in 4th/5th-8th is a fluke and less important than league position.

I trophy when you are in 2nd/3rd and maybe 4th position is the key to giving you a winning mentality to push towards the league win.

Fergusson always saw the value of that. He saw the value that Carling Cup win had in 05/06 in giving that young team confidence and the right mentality to win the league in 06/07.

Klopps recent champions league win was the push that took Liverpool over the line to win last year too.

Winning is cups is vital to shift mentality. Winning breeds winners.
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Ya, it's about breeding the mentality of a champion. A bulging trophy cabinet and a champion's medal will give the players confidence and belief as well.

Our history will be different if Fergie didn't win that FA Cup in 1990. Ole is just trying to say that we will try our best but it's OK of we go out out to AC Milan tonight.
 
Greck said:
I don't understand why you think people haven't seen these or that they change the discussion. He says we generally want to win everything but qualifies it with caveats like this; But sometimes a trophy can hide the other fact of what is happening at the club. It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments you might be lucky, you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors.

People know they're disagreeing with the qualifications he made on "we want to win everything" because it's rationalizing failures
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Or he's just pointing out a simple truth? Arsenal won the FA cup last season and people declared Arteta an elite manager and predicted them to do well this season, then they shat the bed completely. Turns out people got carried away because they managed to win a cup, and in actuality both Arteta and the team were far behind where people had them pegged at the end of last season/start of this season.

We clearly disagree on the significance of his comments about cup competitions, though. I don't think they're meant as excuses, I just think Ole is being honest about the reality of football. Should he be? I guess it depends on who you ask.
UnofficialDevil said:
You can go on defending what Ole said for as long as you want, you're not going to convince me. Pochetino was heavily talked about as progress once he got Spurs to the champions league final on a tight budget while also securing top 4. And I'd rather you left out remarks about being stupid or not. Finishing higher in the league isn't necessarily a barometer because there are parameters being ignored, Chelsea with Lampard as manager and Liverpool playing the majority of the games with no defence. If we were to win the Europa League while also maintaining top 4 this year then yes that would be progress. Which is why Ole shouldnt be playing down cups.
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Yeah, no. Poch was being raved about as the next big thing for all the amazing things he was doing at Spurs long before he made that CL final. And I didn't say you were stupid, I said claiming improvement in the league year on year (this is key, as it insinuates that we're talking about several seasons, not just one to the next) isn't a sign of progress is stupid, because it is. A higher finish than the season before isn't a surefire sign of progress, but neither me nor Ole has claimed otherwise. Consistent improvement in the league, together with winning trophies, is a clear sign of progress. That's what Ole said, that's what I'm agreeing with.

If we finish 2nd with no trophies, I'd consider that progress from last season, and enough to ensure Ole gets another season. The key is to maintain that momentum and build on it. If Ole fails to do so, then we should look elsewhere.
 
If he’s so content to go out of Cups why are Bruno & Maguire ever present in the teams that go out. . .

Whilst a League Cup can’t be compared in significance to a Premier League we’re double digits of the Citeh who also happened to knock us out of the latter.

If he wants to be judged on league position, assuming we finish second this season, then it’s championship or bust next season which I don’t think looks plausible or reasonable.

Winning a cup doesn’t hide anything if there actually is progress; finishing 2nd & winning a cup would be a decent job done imo.
 
Halftrack said:
Or he's just pointing out a simple truth? Arsenal won the FA cup last season and people declared Arteta an elite manager and predicted them to do well this season, then they shat the bed completely. Turns out people got carried away because they managed to win a cup, and in actuality both Arteta and the team were far behind where people had them pegged at the end of last season/start of this season.

We clearly disagree on the significance of his comments about cup competitions, though. I don't think they're meant as excuses, I just think Ole is being honest about the reality of football. Should he be? I guess it depends on who you ask.

Yeah, no. Poch was being raved about as the next big thing for all the amazing things he was doing at Spurs long before he made that CL final. And I didn't say you were stupid, I said claiming improvement in the league year on year (this is key, as it insinuates that we're talking about several seasons, not just one to the next) isn't a sign of progress is stupid, because it is. A higher finish than the season before isn't a surefire sign of progress, but neither me nor Ole has claimed otherwise. Consistent improvement in the league, together with winning trophies, is a clear sign of progress. That's what Ole said, that's what I'm agreeing with.

If we finish 2nd with no trophies, I'd consider that progress from last season, and enough to ensure Ole gets another season. The key is to maintain that momentum and build on it. If Ole fails to do so, then we should look elsewhere.
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I can agree with you there. But we could win the Europa league this year. We have a better squad than the teams left. Even though we don't belong in the Europa league but that's another story. I don't think the comments about not winning a cup were necessary, specially not now with two cup games coming up.
 
Seems like a decent enough opinion to me. Winning a cup means feck all if there is no progress. Chelsea won the CL and never became a force to reckon in Europe or something of that sort.
We won Europa and FA cup and it didn't mean anything for us in terms of dominance
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Seems like a decent enough opinion to me. Winning a cup means feck all if there is no progress. Chelsea won the CL and never became a force to reckon in Europe or something of that sort.
We won Europa and FA cup and it didn't mean anything for us in terms of dominance
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Prior To Ronaldos Madrid, the last time a team went back to back in the UCL was 1990; when we won in 1999 we didn’t reach another final for nearly a decade so going by your Chelsea analogy were United irrelevant for 9 years?

If Bayern don’t repeat this year then last year was for nought?

Winning a Domestic Cup versus winning a European Cup can’t just be thrown into the same category in terms of relevancy, the same as I’ve always looked at beating 19 other sides over the course of a season as the hardest test.

If the cups aren’t relevant then we should rest Bruno & Co. instead of running them into the ground only to make an excuse after losing in another one.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
If the cups aren’t relevant then we should rest Bruno & Co. instead of running them into the ground only to make an excuse after losing in another one.
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His words say they're not that important, but his actions show that he's desperate for a trophy. I still remember him subbing in a half broken Rashford vs Wolves in the F.A cup last season...

And I don't blame him, you can't just come from Molde to United and then not win anything for 3 years. Of course he needs to win a cup at least.
 
not sure you can put progress just down to league position, you can finish 2nd but never be in a title race like we were with Jose, or you could be in a title race up till last couple of games and still potentially end up outside the top 4 if is was a really tight league, for me with progress, you need to see better football, individual's improving from last season, and going further in the cups, so for me there is no real progress this season, football is just as bad, apart from Shaw is any the other players really better then they were last season ? dumped out the CL in the group stage was pretty damming and so far another semi final which we failed at. then talk of a massive new deal for Ole seems unbelievable if being honest.
 
I get what he is trying to say (if you read the full quote) and think a lot of people are twisting his words to fit their agenda.

At the same time, he clearly has his own agenda. There can be a lot of illusory progress in league position as well. Consider the second place finishers from 2015-2018.

When Arsenal finished second in 15-16, it wasn't progress, it was just a massive blown opportunity by a club that wasn't actually improving at all and was soon to be on a sharp downslope. Spurs in 16-17 had a fantastic season that really did represent meaningful improvement, but they then got steadily worse over the next three seasons. United then finished second in 17-18, but it wasn't really a sign of sustainable progress, just a Mourinho project that topped out at a relatively low ceiling and was about to implode. I'm not saying that this is going to happen to United now. But finishing second isn't necessarily a sign that a club is getting better, it often can just mean that some luck went your way that year and/or other clubs got worse, and it certainly isn't a reliable indication that there are even better things to come.
 
edcunited1878 said:
Full quote/comment by Ole:

"Of course, we are all wanting to win trophies at this club. But sometimes a trophy can hide the other facts of what is happening at the club (see Arsenal, Wigan). It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments, you might be lucky; you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors. But, of course, we're aiming to win; that's what's required in football and you're always aiming to win trophies."

"I think you have to say that when you see the culture of what's happening every day, I feel a lot of improvement in the everyday routine, the everyday work. The boys have taken on everything I want. It's for others to assess how much we've improved. We're 12 points ahead of where we were in the league this time last season. I have been here for two and a half years of those years (since United last won a trophy in 2017) now and coming in, I felt a big rebuild had to be made. It's in the league position that you see if there has been progress. That's how you see if you are capable of coping with ups and downs."

"We need to win something and, if we play well, the trophies will return. But a trophy won't say 'we're back'. We need the consistency of being top of the league and then winning some trophies. A cup can hide that you are struggling a little bit."
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Well, it's a standard reply with lots of "I think.. but... if". A nothing interview.

Of course he'd say that progress in the League is more important, because that's all he has now, isn't it??
 
Is the League Cup and 5th place a successful season?

Is the Community Shield and 4th place a successful season?

Is winning the FA Cup and getting relegated like Wigan a successful season?

The answer to all of those is 'no' in my opinion. The point Ole is making - and one I agree with - is that trophies can sometimes paper over the cracks. Building a stronger team is what represents real progress. And real progress will eventually lead to trophies. That's the sensible order in which to prioritise things.

Ole is criticising the philosophy of focusing on trophies for the sake of short termism. Of course, it can work sometimes as with Blackburn in 95 or Milan in 07. But that's a dangerous gamble with far more failures than successes. Hence why he describes it as being about the 'ego' of manager. Because it can lead to the manager is betting all-in with the fortunes of the club.
 
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Murray3007 said:
not sure you can put progress just down to league position, you can finish 2nd but never be in a title race like we were with Jose, or you could be in a title race up till last couple of games and still potentially end up outside the top 4 if is was a really tight league, for me with progress, you need to see better football, individual's improving from last season, and going further in the cups, so for me there is no real progress this season, football is just as bad, apart from Shaw is any the other players really better then they were last season ? dumped out the CL in the group stage was pretty damming and so far another semi final which we failed at. then talk of a massive new deal for Ole seems unbelievable if being honest.
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We couldn't finish so we got knocked out of the champions league.. I still haven't forgotten the Martial miss, and Cavani hitting the post against PSG
 
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