Solskjaer: Winning trophies is more of an ego thing for managers, league position is where true progress is seen

Not when you're two points better than 3rd position and 15 behind the first.
That depends on luck as well - getting those crucial points in the last few games can move you up and down the table and isn't a reflection on progress in such a competitive league.
 
Liverpool showed more progress in 17/18 with their CL final run, than we did the same season finishing 2nd.
 
Revaulx said:
‘Cos there’s a risk that if we go deep into them the chances of winning one are outweighed by the distractions from focusing on the club’s main objective, which is to make Top 4?
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But we’re comfortably in the top 4 now, and winning trophies raises profile and gets prize money.
 
cyberman said:
Hes right. You can fluke cup wins. Consistency is always the barometer.
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There is only so much a league position progress can do for loser spot. Only one Champion spot. Look how Tottenham and Arsenal have ended up with their progress. Wenger and Poch all reached 2nd spot, and consistent CL football, until the fall.

Mourinho made some progress finishing 2nd before the following season shitstorm, too. And we could sense thing going sour that summer.
 
Red_toad said:
as it was in the context of points, then more points is equal to progress
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Then by that logic, City and Liverpool of the past few season were the best PL champions? The 2nd place Liverpool of 2018-2019 is better than punny SAF's Treble winning team?
 
Find it a strange comment to make. Winning trophies is your bread and butter as a football club, particularly at a club like Manchester United. It just sounds like excuses for our cup defeats at the business end of last season ahead of two important cup games which we could easily lose. At the end of the day, I'd rather win a cup and be third or fourth than second and potless. We are literally a few points ahead of 4th anyway so could easily finish worse off than last season. Would that mean we'd have gone backwards?
 
ti vu said:
Then by that logic, City and Liverpool of the past few season were the best PL champions? The 2nd place Liverpool of 2018-2019 is better than punny SAF's Treble winning team?
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Not really, different league altogether, it’s fair to look at one season and compare points to the following season to see your progress (to an extent at least), but it’s not reasonable to compare points total to a league that took place years ago.
 
What is the point of watching this Ole at the wheel team then?
Like I said before, without winning a meaningful trophy - Ole’s team is just like any Liverpool pre-Klopp teams who raised their game up a few times a year against big teams to screw someone day up.
I don’t see any passion with Ole on the sideline or on the bench. Football is a game of emotion and technicality - Ole has been showing that he lacks of both as our HC so far.
 
ti vu said:
There is only so much a league position progress can do for loser spot. Only one Champion spot. Look how Tottenham and Arsenal have ended up with their progress. Wenger and Poch all reached 2nd spot, and consistent CL football, until the fall.

Mourinho made some progress finishing 2nd before the following season shitstorm, too. And we could sense thing going sour that summer.
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They all progressed until they stopped progressing. Wenger was winning FA cups up until he was sacked, those victories signified very little. All mangers sacked over league form, not inability to win cups.
Ole isnt saying one isnt independent of the other, just that you cant judge progress on cup runs.

“It’s not like a trophy will say: ‘We’re back.’ No, it’s the gradual progression of being in and around the top of the league and the consistency, and the odd cup competition can hide the fact you’re still struggling a little bit.”

There isnt a thing wrong with that quote imo
 
Berbasbullet said:
But we’re comfortably in the top 4 now, and winning trophies raises profile and gets prize money.
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Let's hope the club think that way as well. I agree that it seems absurd that they wouldn't.

It's just that some of the club's decision making in recent times has been so bizarre that I'm never sure what to believe any more.
 
ti vu said:
Then by that logic, City and Liverpool of the past few season were the best PL champions? The 2nd place Liverpool of 2018-2019 is better than punny SAF's Treble winning team?
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Address that to Ole, not my perspective. they were more consistent in the league. But maybe the treble winning side would have gotten more points with a genuine challenger for the title? Who knows...
 
roonster09 said:
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Well summed up. As I said earlier many teams can win a cup and it can mask over where they really are. Arsenal last season are a good example and United in the 80s was like that also. I'd hope if any trophy is won this season it can be a stepping stone towards major honours in the years ahead as FA Cup, cup winners Cup 1990, 1991 was.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Not really, different league altogether, it’s fair to look at one season and compare points to the following season to see your progress (to an extent at least), but it’s not reasonable to compare points total to a league that took place years ago.
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What you just called fair belongs to @GlastonSpur school of selective stats.

Gauging progress by comparing to the previous season, then what would you do to your manager who won you big trophies 2 seasons ago, after 2 seasons of trophyless?
cyberman said:
They all progressed until they stopped progressing. Wenger was winning FA cups up until he was sacked, those victories signified very little. All mangers sacked over league form, not inability to win cups.
Ole isnt saying one isnt independent of the other, just that you cant judge progress on cup runs.

“It’s not like a trophy will say: ‘We’re back.’ No, it’s the gradual progression of being in and around the top of the league and the consistency, and the odd cup competition can hide the fact you’re still struggling a little bit.”

There isnt a thing wrong with that quote imo
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Ole said trophies. It would mean EL, CL, PL too,

The timing is also important. It's convenient how this is coming out now ahead a potential exit from EL, and FA Cup quarter final, so we can be back to focus in the league, after not focusing in it when we had to chance to push for title charge.

You can't judge a progress on cup run, then it's even no go to judge progress on league position or point wise either. Maybe a title challenge then?
 
Red_toad said:
Address that to Ole, not my perspective. they were more consistent in the league. But maybe the treble winning side would have gotten more points with a genuine challenger for the title? Who knows...
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That's the point. It's all about doing what is best now, and winning what is in front of you, that truly matters. All these progress shite is just moving the goal post, especially when some managers don't fancy their chance to go over the line.
 
I always find it funny when people just lap up anything, it's clearly a nonsense from Ole. Trophies are crucial for a club like united but if you can claim intangible progress than what does actual failure matter.

I'm just glad it's not the philosophy and foundation lines anymore, that's when it became evident people would just agree with anything on here.
 
Halftrack said:
Ole, and hence people on here, are talking about judging progress based on winning cups. In case you didn't realize that.
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No they aren't. They are saying that winning the top 4 trophy without winning anything else is not enough. In case you didn't realise that.

And what I said is consistency in winning trophies is what makes a team big. Trophies = winning the league, winning a major Cup.
 
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The goalposts will always be moved. These comments don't matter one bit. There is not point getting upset over them.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
League position is undoubtedly a better indicator of a team's strength than cup wins. To describe it as an "ego thing" (for managers no less, what about the players) is quite bizarre though. But I think it's just poor wording than anything else.
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Problem with these kind of articles is we never know exactly what the wording/framing of the question was.
I could imagine he'd answer something about ego if he was asked something like "Is it important for your individual confidence as Man Utd manager to win...". Then it would make sense for him to say, 'I don't need it for my ego to win a 50/50 game' etc.
It also sounds like the reporter asking the question might have been trying to play him against a Mourinho quote or something like that, so this
Traub said:
Just reads as a Jose dig to me.
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is appropriate no matter the context. And good on Ole.
 
If were not winning the league then i'd rather win a cup every year and finish 4th instead of finishing 2nd without any silverware.
 
Not a surprising comment when there's a half decent chance we'll be out of both remaining cup competitions in the next few days, facing another trophy-less season.
 
I agree with his general point.

But when you're fighting to take the next step(to challenge) and you do extremely well in the UCL or win a cup, it can breed confidence throughout the squad and catapult you the following season.
 
Adisa said:
The goalposts will always be moved. These comments don't matter one bit. There is not point getting upset over them.
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Understandable until we have bunch of people who buy into all those bullshite and treating it as gospel.

The context is clear. We're in a tough week, where it may end any chance for a silverware this season. While we don't want blind optimism, we don't want to hear early excuses either. Not from a manager who had nothing to show for his potential, who main aim is to deflect pressure, and stay in comfortable zone, happy to keep his job.
 
So much stupidity and false equivalences, both in his comment and in the thread. It's not a pick one situation and even if it was (which it isn't) there's no hard and fast rule or concrete indicator of success when you're on a dry spell. You can win cups and still show progress or finish high in the league on your way to a trophyless spell.

There's also a huge gap between winning an occasional cup and never winning anything at all for 2 and a half years, that's the Arsenal/Spurs fast track. The point of winning cups is nothing is guaranteed in the league. Something anomalous can happen in the league the year you think you're finally ready to compete. Heck nothing might happen and you still might not win. It's not like the competition are just going to stop improving

The worst part is Ole doesn't even know when he'd be ready to compete. All he knows is asking for more time and constantly shifting expectations 2-3 years down the line. 2 years ago we were 3 years away. 2 years later we're still 3 years away
 
UnofficialDevil said:
No they aren't. They are saying that winning the top 4 trophy without winning anything else is not enough. In case you didn't realise that.
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The people you were responding to were specifically talking about it in the context of Ole's comments about the league being a better barometer of progress than winning cups. @justsomebloke corrected your comment about consistently winning trophies being what makes a big club by pointing out that consistently winning leagues makes you a big club. If you consistently win trophies, but all the trophies are national cups, you're not a big club. Arsenal fell out of the big club discussion 10 years ago despite consistently winning the FA cup.
VidaRed said:
If were not winning the league then i'd rather win a cup every year and finish 4th instead of finishing 2nd without any silverware.
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Ole's speaking in the context of this season and this point in the rebuild. Finishing second on 80 pts without any cup wins would be a sign that we've progressed as a team, whereas finishing 4th on 72 pts with an FA cup in the bag wouldn't necessarily be. The FA cup could mask a lack of progress, by people going "yeah, but we clearly binned off the league to save our best players for the cup" even if that isn't what really happened. Thus, a poor league performance is brushed off as a calculated decision made in order to win silverware, rather than shit form coupled with a rub of the green in the cup or whatever. At least, that's how I interpreted his comments.
 
Poor comments. We crashed out of 3 semifinals last year, and this year we won't even make it that far. Wouldn't be surprised to see Milan knock us out, and these comments from Ole seem to suggest he is ready for that eventuality and wants to downplay its significance.

We may finish second this season. It's not progress, it's stagnation. We are miles behind City no matter if we finish second or third or even further below.
 
Eternitiy said:
Poor comments. We crashed out of 3 semifinals last year, and this year we won't even make it that far. Wouldn't be surprised to see Milan knock us out, and these comments from Ole seem to suggest he is ready for that eventuality and wants to downplay its significance.

We may finish second this season. It's not progress, it's stagnation. We are miles behind City no matter if we finish second or third or even further below.
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Yes, our massive improvement in league results is clearly a sign of stagnation.
 
I think the point is that teams can and have fluked cup wins and that winning a cup is not necceserialy a barometer of progress.

If we dont win a trophy this season it isnt a disaster the most important thing is to finish top 4 and improve on last season both of which looks likely.

Winning a cup would be nice of course but luck can play a massive part in cups, one bad draw, bad ref decision etc.

Of course a club like ours can not go on not winning trophies but Ole is trying to build a sustainable title winning squad not just a flash in a pan couple of fairly meaningless cups. So he has time as long as he shows progress and improvement and getting us closer to the end goal.

Oles reign wont be judged on winning a FA cup it will ultimately be judged on weather he manages to win us a title in the next 2 seasons or not.
 
Longshanks said:
I think the point is that teams can and have fluked cup wins and that winning a cup is not necceserialy a barometer of progress.

If we dont win a trophy this season it isnt a disaster the most important thing is to finish top 4 and improve on last season both of which looks likely.

Winning a cup would be nice of course but luck can play a massive part in cups, one bad draw, bad ref decision etc.

Of course a club like ours can not go on not winning trophies but Ole is trying to build a sustainable title winning squad not just a flash in a pan couple of fairly meaningless cups. So he has time as long as he shows progress and improvement and getting us closer to the end goal.

Oles reign wont be judged on winning a FA cup it will ultimately be judged on weather he manages to win us a title in the next 2 seasons or not.
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Might as well sack him now instead of wasting 2 years then. He wouldn’t win a title if he was here for 20 years.

I’ve said it a million times, there’s a reason rival fans unanimously want us to keep Ole. Because he is not good enough & we will achieve nothing under him.
 
Longshanks said:
I think the point is that teams can and have fluked cup wins and that winning a cup is not necceserialy a barometer of progress.

If we dont win a trophy this season it isnt a disaster the most important thing is to finish top 4 and improve on last season both of which looks likely.

Winning a cup would be nice of course but luck can play a massive part in cups, one bad draw, bad ref decision etc.

Of course a club like ours can not go on not winning trophies but Ole is trying to build a sustainable title winning squad not just a flash in a pan couple of fairly meaningless cups. So he has time as long as he shows progress and improvement and getting us closer to the end goal.

Oles reign wont be judged on winning a FA cup it will ultimately be judged on weather he manages to win us a title in the next 2 seasons or not.
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What about option C, if he doesn't win a cup in addition to not winning the league. You can be sure Ole's tenure will be a marked disaster if he doesn't win a single trophy in 5 years. You can't just do away with anything that isn't the PL and CL. The cups are there to soften the blow of multiple fruitless seasons. We've always been able to laugh off Arsenal and tottenham even after SAF retired thanks to maintaining our winning standing in a lesser form
 
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Greck said:
What about option C, if he doesn't win a cup in addition to not winning the league. You can be sure Ole's tenure will be a marked disaster if he doesn't win a single trophy in 5 years. You can't just do away with anything that isn't the PL and CL
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Disaster is a bit strong. Would depend on what shape he leaves us in, I'd say.

That being said, he's clearly not saying that we should bin off the cups and just look at the league table forever, and I don't understand why people keep framing it his comments that way. There's not really any ambiguity there, he's clearly speaking in the context of this season, and that our progress as a team is better judged by our league position at the end than by whether or not we managed to win a cup.
 
Halftrack said:
Disaster is a bit strong. Would depend on what shape he leaves us in, I'd say.

That being said, he's clearly not saying that we should bin off the cups and just look at the league table forever, and I don't understand why people keep framing it his comments that way. There's not really any ambiguity there, he's clearly speaking in the context of this season, and that our progress as a team is better judged by our league position at the end than by whether or not we managed to win a cup.
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It's a foolish comment because we were never trying to pick one in the first place. No one was pitting these two accomplishments against each other because they simply aren't competing goals. I get what he means but it's also irrelevant as a bright side
 
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