Indeed. The slagging off part is more because he has a long history of being an utter prick I'd imagine.
Being a United fan I really don't give a feck about him or his opinions. But once again the actual real fight is being dragged through the mud.
Sol Campbell
- Thread starter Sean_RedDevil
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Indeed. The slagging off part is more because he has a long history of being an utter prick I'd imagine.
Being a United fan I really don't give a feck about him or his opinions. But once again the actual real fight is being dragged through the mud.
Can only agree with this - Campbell and Rio aside, there hasn't been a single really good candidate to captain England in my opinion. At least not compared to some of the other alternatives that were around like Becks, Adams, Terry, Gerrard
I think you are overlooking the main reason people are quick to question this. Clue, it's not about offense
Someone else, and I'd be very interested in what they have to say. I think you are right with the mental image. However with someone with his track record and a book to sell?
I've said I don't agree with the assertion, my problem is how much vitriol is being aimed at him.
Jason Roberts has got just as much shit for saying this kind of thing too in the past, as has Ince, Barnes and the aforementioned "Society of Black Lawyers" (How dare black people have their own group of lawyers. I mean, it's not as if 'lawyer' is an overwhelmingly white and privileged environment, prone to institutional racism and those not befitting the status quo might be better off banding together. Oh no, the only explanation is RACISM AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE!!)
In fact find me a thread where a black sportsmen says something about race holding them back and I'll find you at least a few posts of indignant whities all queuing up to call him a prick, an idiot, deluded and "doing more harm than good" ..It's rather unfortunate is all.
Racism is still a real problem, and one most of us white people know little if nothing about, and we'd do well to treat it with understanding rather than indignancy when players who've obviously suffered it during their career (and certainly their lives) perhaps over-emphasise or jump to conclusions regarding it. For quite obvious reasons.
I'm sorry, but that's complete bullshit. It's perilously close to saying "Actual racists aren't the problem. Black people being over-sensitive is"
I know that isn't your intent, but no, this doesn't do the cause more harm than good, except amongst white people who think it's annoying people are still banging on about race because as we all know, we cured racism in 2002.
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I find the top line quite insulting actually.
So tell me how is Sol Campbell stating that the FA are a racist organisation, without an ounce of proof, justifiable.
The point is, his statement is complete bullshit, he's using his skin colour and racism to sell a book, to me that's disgusting. Why didn't he speak out earlier? it's a very serious accusation.
No one is saying racism doesn't exist, I have yet to read a post stating that. What you can't do however is accuse an Organisation that are trying to kick racism out of football of actually being racist, without any evidence to back up your claim, statements like that could set the cause back years.
He won't have made that decision himself.
He just wrote a book, containing his own opinions, then whoever is marketing it will have decided how best to publicise it. This usually involves serialisation in a few papers, who inevitably pick up on whatever elements they think will create the most controversy. A lot of these books have an element of "setting the record straight", so it's normal for people to settle a few scores on issues that they didn't want to kick up a fuss about in the past.
The idea that he cynically created that section, just to make sure his book gets publicity, is incredibly unfair.
Poor you.
We know football has a hugely racist past. We know it's socially behind the times. We know it still happens on the terraces (there was even a new Dispatches on it just yesterday) and that even recently the FA has had to act on matters involving the fecking England Captain! (An issue that eventually culminated in Rio Ferdinand being dropped for the Euros to placate Terry) and the former Chairman of the FA has actually come out and partially agreed with Campbell.
And yet even the possibility of institutional racism is apparently completely unjustifiable? Ok then.
More annoying though, is that reaction to such possibilities are rarely "Well, we don't actually know, why do we think he feels like this?" but often "idiot, prick, deluded" etc.
I don't think it is complete bullshit. I think Treisman's comments are fair for example. And how would you know if it was anyway? How is your knowledge of the inner workings of the FA these days?
No they couldn't. What sets causes back years is ignoring possible examples and being scared into silence, not occasionally overreacting. In fact if Campbell's statements are likely to do anything, it's make people very conscious of this "idealised view of an England captain" in the future.
Not to mention that black footballers are CONSTANTLY asked about their race.
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True.
However I'm certain he knew how much controversy that statement would generate, he is now using it to sell his book, that's his choice. In reference to the bolded part, it's not really an opinion you would want to make public without any solid evidence.
If he had any evidence it would be the biggest scandal to ever hit the FA, he doesn't though.
Whilst I agree with your overall point, do you really think your tone there helps? It kind of adds to my point here actually.
People like Sol and the black lawyers society throwing out soundbites gives rise to people to roll eyes and maybe be less interested when a real case comes up. You then trying to poke at me with your mildly amusing soapbox speech on the black lawyers there is much the same. Where racism is concerned, communication and education is the key. When you have extreme ends and people in the middle can't even discuss it without someone coming in a misrepresenting what they say just because they raise a fair point, then no one wins. In that case, yes it is against the real fight.
Now I don't disagree with your underlying point at all, just how you went about putting it across. It kind of helps prove mine.
Besides you are missing the most 'obvious' reason (I wonder where you are going with that, what you want to say), this man has a history of this kind of thing and of generally being a twat. He's made a huge allegation with no facts and which makes very little sense. Yes comments can be over the top, no argument there, but that's vastly more about the man that it ever is about his race. Unless you think otherwise?
No, I mean he always seemed a desperately unhappy guy.
When it comes to a sensitive issue like this, he's not going to have any evidence.
For all their amateurism, even the FA is going to stop short of firing round emails headed "Next England Captain - Must Not Be Black". Something like this is usually very difficult to prove but this doesn't mean we should shout down someone who speaks up like this just because his opinion is not supported by hard evidence.
It's definitely possible that any prejudice was perceived, rather than real but racism in football is still an important and ongoing issue, even in 2014. It hasn't gone away and concerns like this should be heard out without immediately assuming he's just looking for publicity to sell his book. I think that's unfair.
My tone is the point. It's OK to call out Campbell, but call out the fans!? How dare you! Why should I be understanding of rather blunt and accusatory comments, but people needn't of his?
whether you agree with the principle of what he's saying or not the quote 'I would have been England captain for 10 years if I was white' comes across as arrogant and alienates people.
One of the things I thought was interesting in the Sunday Times piece was how at pains he was to distance himself from footballers. He referred to the gay rumours and speculated that they might have come about because he wasn't always out shagging with his team mates. It's somewhat surprising to me that he doesn't even seem to consider that stuff like openly distancing yourself from the team mates and being seen as a bit of a loner wouldn't mark you out as ideal captaincy material.
So basically we are going to go round in circles proving each other's point yet neither of us thinking this is a good situation anyway.
For the record I agree with most of what you and Pogue say here in terms of racism, I just happen to think that the outburst from people, of all races actually, against Sol is more about the man than his race.
What if they had taken the captaincy off Adams, with absolutely no justification whatever, would Adams have been entitled to say Campbell only got it because he's black. Sol Campbell should be looking back on a great career. Instead he is fretting about this. He is coming across as very bitter. I am sure Steve Bruce would have loved some of his caps.
I certainly believe he is talking shit about being the captain. Whether or not he brings up his own race time and again for sympathy or for genuine reasons, I don't think it instantly makes people racist for thinking that due to who it is it hurts the fight more than helps.
Kick it out certainly don't agree, and in my personal experience of the pub last night, it isn't just the 'whities' who think he is being controversal to help boost sales. Sure that could be completely wrong of course, no two ways about it. But I don't think what he actually says there, then the nonsense he has spouted in interviews since is helpful in any way.
But the fight goes on and that's the important thing.
Who has said it isn’t? Show me one post were someone states that racism doesn’t exist. Yes John Terry was found guilty of racism but there was proof, something to base the accusation on, that’s the difference.
Rio was dropped by Hodgson, not the FA, is he racist now to or did he pick who he thought was the best player as he knew he couldn’t play both? Should Terry have been allowed to play for England again? I don't believe so, but that's my opinion.
In this case he’s selling a book.
Sven Goran Erickson said it was bollocks, he was his manager for 5 of those 10 years and picked him nearly 40 times to play for England.
My point remains, you can’t accuse an organisation of racism without any evidence, its slander. The only evidence he has is he wasn’t made Captain for 10 years. My inner workings of the FA are the same as yours, only I'm basing my judgement on evidence, on which there isnt any.
Ish, yes. I'm not for a second accusing anyone of racism, but I think there's a sensitivity issue at play. It happens with sexism a lot too. This is a white mans world, and we rarely see how this ingrained privilege manifests itself, but we can get very touchy about the implication it does, because no one wants to think that they're anything but modern and egalitarian. Challenges to the status-quo become attacks on us in a way, and we go too far when we act like this is worse or more harmful than actual racism.
However much we like to think football has rid itself of racism, and that it all boils down to Ince just being a terrible manager (he was) and Campbell being difficult (he is) there still are far too few players who've gone into management or coaching or media compared to their white peers, and there's probably a reason for this. Even if it is just black players perceived feeling that the world isn't comfortable enough for them, it's still something we don't actually know, or fully understand, and should be sensitive too, rather than antagonistic.
Re: @Pogue Mahone 's post. People at the FA aren't sitting around pyramiding their fingers and trying to keep black people out of the game, and this isn't what Campbell's saying either. It's an institutional, pervasive thing.
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Then he shouldn’t have made the accusation.
Of course the FA aren’t sending emails, or texts or any other type of communication that the next captain shouldn’t be black, but do you not think it would have come to light before now, an ex-manager, ex-employee, anyone within the FA?
If there was any evidence he could have a case, but there’s nothing, if he did it would be the biggest scandal to ever hit the FA. The fact remains you can’t go accusing someone of being racist without any evidence, its slander.
Fairly sure slander applies to individuals, not institutions.
Re "evidence", that's neither here nor there. He believes that he has experienced institutional racism. Whether or not he has any evidence to back this up, he's entitled to his opinion.
Would it even be possible to write an autobiography if you werent allowed to express opinions for which you had no evidence?
I'd be very surprised if Campbell is doing this to sell books. Knowing what little about him that I do I think it's much more likely that he perceives himself as a victim and has found his answer in the wrong place (or, obviously, may have a point). I suspect he has identified an issue that does need to be addressed, or at least looked at in a broader sense, but wrongly believes it to be the reason he wasn't made captain. If doesn't make the issue any less worthy of discussion, in my opinion, it just means his isn't the ideal case to actually raise it.
Not sure, you could be right but I'm pretty sure it does.
Of course people are entitled to their opinions but not if they are slanderous statements that harm a persons business or reputation. I'm pretty sure they would need evidence to back it up.
Pretty sure you could look at almost any autobiography ever written and find something in it that would offend some person or institution without having evidence to back it up. I havent looked around but is anyone suggesting the FA could sue over this or something? If not, evidently the FA feel he is entitled to his opinion, even if they disagree with it.
Oh I agree. However my point about the reactions still stands. Obviously you know I wasn't commenting on the black lawyers shouldn't exist, nor has anyone said this is worse than racism. That's the point I'm making about none of it being helpful.
For instance, surely you see with certain people like those mentioned, it's the whole "oh not him/them again" thing? Kick is out practically said that.
You and I seem to be from very different parts of London so our experiences will differ. But I was the only 'whitey' at my table last night and I can assure you I was least angry with Campbell for this. As I kept saying, he either thinks the world's against him or trying to flog a book. Probably both things go hand in hand.
I think we disagree over whether it causes more harm than good. It probably does to Campbell's reputation, but not to anyone elses. In fact I think it makes the issue of a black captain more of a talking point, and will actually prove far more helpful to the next person with a shot at it. Having read the interview, this also seems to be Campbell's intention. Or at least his excuse.
Yep. And I personally think it gives rise to some of the views in this thread you are against. Both could be right at the same time even
But I don't believe that was his intention, no. Obviously that's based on what I think. But look at it this way, the timing of this and his apparent bumbling around in interviews when asked shows to me he really hasn't a set idea on this. Do I think he actually believes it? Possibly considering the nature of the man and his past behaviour, but it can't be denied that this does look more like a book selling stunt than a real helpful claim. Otherwise why not before? Why not help your fellow man earlier when it mattered?
I know you wasn't being serious with the Black Lawyers dig earlier as it helped prove your point, but thinking this is about selling books as much as it is helping anyone has a lot more weight to it, than thinking someone like me who holds the opinion it's the former, has that view because I'm white.
This is good in the sense it gets people talking about a serious and ongoing issue, but I feel it comes from the wrong place. That, to me, is as much a detriment as it is a help. More so when you see the reactions.
Excellent point.
Why do you think that?
The thread on them was ridiculous, with people actually calling them a racist organisation and demanding we start a Society of White Lawyers. Much like this, using a potentially misguided statement (but nevertheless one they presumably felt was noble) to completely undermine the entire point, and indeed their existence. (The society itself was set up to fight inequality in the law profession - something that quite obviously exists - and nothing to do with football, but they're constantly canvased for quotes whenever a race topic emerges.)
Here's more such stuff in a thread on the potential forming of a Black PFA ...Again, instead of thinking why more than just one or two black players think it's potentially viable, or why they'd even want to, people focus on their imagined offense at the very idea. (No one is actually offended by it, but by god are they going to pretend they are!)
Again, we know this happens on terraces, we know it's happened on the fecking pitch! And yet the idea black players are genuinely feeling discriminated against institutionally is often secondary to the idea they're playing the race card, or looking for attention. I'm very uncomfortable with that.
Who is it a detriment to though? Only to people who'd be inclined to think so, surely? To people who's natural assumption is that these things are made up or over exaggerated? Again, I don't think any of this is racist, but it's naive and ignorant, and still a bit ridiculous for a largely white bunch of people with little or no experience of racism to tell certain black people to shut up about their perceived injustices because it does more harm than good...with people like them.
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It is a good discussion to have I agree, and if there is racism within the FA, hopefully this will bring any race related issues out in the open.
Personally, I hate the way Campbell went about it, whether he meant to or not, it looks like he is using the colour of his skin and serious accusations to sell his book.
A player should be captain of his national team on his own merits, not on the colour of his skin.
I think Campbell has focused on the wrong area to talk about racisim within the brackets of football in general. If he had focused on the lack of opportunities generally for black people in football, then I think more people would have supported and acknowledged what he was trying to say. To say words to the effect of 'if I'd been white I would have been captain of England for ten years' is just not that bright an argument. It's incendary and deflects from the main and important points and evidence of racism in British football.
Now we have Barnes and Ince coming about disagreeing with Campbell, so really his rather blatant statement has had a rather disruptive effect within the black footballing fraternity....
Now we have Barnes and Ince coming about disagreeing with Campbell, so really his rather blatant statement has had a rather disruptive effect within the black footballing fraternity....
Exactly. I completely agree.
Of course. And I've said from the outset I don't think his "10 years as captain" statement was true. I genuinely don't think anyone is being racist in this thread either, latently or otherwise. But I do think a lot of white people are uncomfortable with race politics, and would rather they didn't have to contemplate it, and that this can manifest itself in the rather harsh dismissal of things that should at least be discussed or understood.
Perhaps this is just me reading far too much into it, all I know is my instinctive reaction to this thread was that it was harsh.
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I meant in terms of directing it at me. But a lot in that thread was also right, especially when they got involved in the Tottenham terrace chant. As for canvased for quotes? That's exactly what they (or more to the point, he) wanted all along. Quite clearly I might add.
But that's for that thread.
I don't agree at all, and again you are taking it well out of proportion.
I think you are digging deeper into this than needs be and are still missing the overall point. This isn't an confirmed act of racism, and it's not sweeping racism under the rug. It's one man with a history of blame pushing and making a tit of himself, claiming he wasn't captain of England for racist reasons. A man, who waits until he is ready to publish a book no less, who has made no mention of it in the past.
The simple answer here is that it's far more likely that he perceives this to be the case and is wrong, but still used it in his book and it's now being pushed as a selling point, rather than what he's saying actually being truthful. I think because of that it actually hurts the future of people coming out and being tarred with his brush.
You can go on about 'whites' and being uncomfortable all you like, again maybe you haven't so much grown up in such a multi-cultural area as me and maybe that's why you see it how you do (which goes both ways of course, it's maybe why I'm more easy going with what I say when I could possibly look deeper sometimes), but from where I am I'm fine with talking about issues like this and am very happy for all institutionalised racism to be flushed out into the open and the discussions be had. What I'm against though, is the situation here and what it leads to. Which, comes full circle to being what you are against too.
I'd have some sympathy for Campbell if he'd provided some evidence to his ridiculous claims or if Paul Ince hadn't captained England during Campbell's career or if Campbell himself hadn't captained England 3 times in non-competitive matches or the likes Eriksson and Taylor hadn't said Campbell's claims were wrong.
It shouldn't, but it fuels the 'race card' attitude that is sometimes displayed. Football sometimes reminds me of the Hollywood bubble attitude we see at the Oscars etc.......you can pretty much get anything swept under the carpet, and quickly forgotten about. The problem being that the issue is never really fixed, so you can't really blame Campbell and other people for being aggrieved.
This is evidenced as much by how Luis Suarez' (yes, him again) discretions are all often lumped together as 'trouble he had in the past', and then quickly followed by, 'But yeah, he is a terrific player'.
This is evidenced as much by how Luis Suarez' (yes, him again) discretions are all often lumped together as 'trouble he had in the past', and then quickly followed by, 'But yeah, he is a terrific player'.
You've said this a couple of times. I did grow up in a fairly multi-cultural environment, and coincidentally, like you, I was also "the only white person at the table" (I was staying with my gfs family) when I read the article. Personally I was hoping we could avoid the "how many black friends I have" approach though. Largely because absolutely everything is going to sound patronising from there on in. Like that, and this, for example.
Anyway, yes, perhaps I am over analysing it. And I think your attitude is perfectly legitimate, and entirely well meaning, but we clearly disagree on certain aspects. We'll probably just keep going round with it (I'm also having trouble accessing the Caf today - it keeps freezing and telling me to kill the page - so I'll have to bow out for the time being)
T'was fun. I'm going to write an article on it now, and be as patronisingly Comment Is Free as I can!
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Well that wasn't the intention, more trying to see why perhaps we have different views on this.
No problem. We agree on most things here, certainly the most important aspect, just have differing views on where this leads to I guess. Nothing wrong in that, it makes for interesting discussion and I've certainly taken onboard what you are saying.
T'was fun. I'm going to write an article on it now, and be as patronisingly Comment Is Free as I can!
Let me know when it's up mate!Ledley King would have been captain if fit
and white
Disappointing contribution. I expected more from such a username.