So what's next for Sir Gareth Southgate?

[Abraxas]

It's all a bit weird to be frank. No open play goals in the nations league at all, but is that any surprise when he's picking some absolute journeymen to go along. Surely it's obvious to anyone with a brain that both Rashford and Sancho have the talent to absolute destroy teams, and a LOT more than the guys he's picking at current- as a manager of any club (international or ourselves, for instance) you'd have to - HAVE to - get them training and firing because why on earth you'd pick the dross he's picking instead, whatever their extremely arguable 'form' might be, and then every defender you can because you don't want to get obliterated by better teams and managers -... it just feels like Solskjaer at an England level, only without the amiableness. I can't help feeling Ten Hag will embarass a few people once he's got those guys in a system that shows how good they can actually be.

What are you on about?

Theoretical talent maybe, Rashford hasn't performed for a year and a half and walks round the pitch, how can an international manager pick that? Sancho scored 3 league goals. We think he'll improve next season but he has to do it, it's all talk at the moment.

Mount, Foden, Saka, Bowen have actually performed. That's why they're picked. A fairly simple equation.

 

[Bilbo]

Its been an awful 10 days for Southgate. The first time he's ever started to receive real criticism. For me though this was 4 games we could all absolutely have done without, but some positives have come from it. Half of last nights team are not currently of International quality. Better to know that now than to find out at the WC, and people might stop banging on about our supposedly very deep roster of top level players.

 

[Lay]

He went 4 years without a job after he got sacked at ‘boro. Seems a long time out of football

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

England finally opened up and just as some of us predicted they got murdered on the counter.

 

[do.ob]

He needs to be pragmatic and focus more on defense.

 

[Robindinho]

Its been an awful 10 days for Southgate. The first time he's ever started to receive real criticism. For me though this was 4 games we could all absolutely have done without, but some positives have come from it. Half of last nights team are not currently of International quality. Better to know that now than to find out at the WC, and people might stop banging on about our supposedly very deep roster of top level players.

Southgate himself used that excuse but was it really that far from one of his first choice XI's?

Still had Stones, James, Walker, Phillips, Bellingham, Saka and Kane starting, with Sterling on at half time and Mount after an hour... Hardly a 'B' team.

 

[Posh Red]

He went 4 years without a job after he got sacked at ‘boro. Seems a long time out of football

Wasn’t he coaching the England under 21’s?

 

[nickm]

You're only looking at the end result and not the full picture. Englands national team is miles away from reaching anywhere near it's full potential considering the players available, the teams you beat to go further than any manager in decades were shit.

Respectfully, that's rubbish. I have been watching England for decades and people have been saying the England team is miles away from its full potential throughout that time. The difference is with Southgate is he actually has released its potential. A semi and a final is what 'potential reaching' teams do.

 

[JohnnyKills]

The guys a bit of an ABU to be honest so feck him, always making snide remarks about United players - going back to Smalling when he criticised his ball playing ability. Absolutely no need for it.

The exception is Maguire but then he has him brought on for Saka to boos, great man management there. Reminiscent of Ole in the meltdown months.

Agreed. Plays up to the ABU morons. No sympathy whatsoever.

 

[Reiver]

Respectfully, that's rubbish. I have been watching England for decades and people have been saying the England team is miles away from its full potential throughout that time. The difference is with Southgate is he actually has released its potential. A semi and a final is what 'potential reaching' teams do.

Not sure I agree. Possibly the easiest run at a World Cup ever, both times England played above average opposition, they lost. Final of the Euros seems good until you realise it was essentially a Home tournament. They definitely beat better opposition but might not get a better chance to win a major international tournament in a long time.

 

[UncleBob]

Respectfully, that's rubbish. I have been watching England for decades and people have been saying the England team is miles away from its full potential throughout that time. The difference is with Southgate is he actually has released its potential. A semi and a final is what 'potential reaching' teams do.

The semi and the final was expected given the level of opposition you met, no idea why you're pretending otherwise. The draws were perfectly lined up for England to reach both finals. Piss easy group, and the only real opposition you met was a poor and underperforming Germany team that was lucky to get out of it's group. Ukraine and Denmark Atleast Italy had to play Belgium and Spain.

World cup? Tunisia, Panama and Belgium. Piss easy lineups followed, playing Colombia, Sweden and you were then knocked out by the only decent team you met, before being humiliated by Belgium.

 

[Eplel]

The man is championship level.

 

[nickm]

Not sure I agree. Possibly the easiest run at a World Cup ever, both times England played above average opposition, they lost. Final of the Euros seems good until you realise it was essentially a Home tournament. They definitely beat better opposition but might not get a better chance to win a major international tournament in a long time.

So he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't - got it.

Southgate team came off a historic low for the team and has built it to a semi and a final. Good job.

England has a long history of tripping up over under-average opposition, then going out against the first decent team. We have stopped doing this. This is still a young team benchmarked against the average age of final winning teams. As a nation we have lacked full tournament experience that this team is getting.

 

[Skills]

The man is championship level.

He was shite down there too.

He's the creep that somehow ended up wearing down the supermodel into giving him a shot, by lurking around for long enough.

 

[nickm]

The semi and the final was expected given the level of opposition you met, no idea why you're pretending otherwise. The draws were perfectly lined up for England to reach both finals. Piss easy group, and the only real opposition you met was a poor and underperforming Germany team that was lucky to get out of it's group. Ukraine and Denmark Atleast Italy had to play Belgium and Spain.

World cup? Tunisia, Panama and Belgium. Piss easy lineups followed, playing Colombia, Sweden and you were then knocked out by the only decent team you met, before being humiliated by Belgium.

Funny, I didn't feel any of that negativity when I was watching the team's thrilling journey in both the tournament. That's because long term England fans know this is a much better team - balance, coaching, organisation, preparation, strength in depth and results than the ones we've had in the past - and the team proved it.

 

[Zen86]

He did a decent job getting England as far as he did over the last couple of tournaments. We've a history of shite performances at international tournaments, even when we have a very strong team. The whole "got to a final in spite of him" stuff is rubbish. However, you would think this is the beginning of the end for him. The squad will have lost quite a bit of confidence in him.

 

[ilrm]

Does the Nations League really matter? Isn't this tournament just a way to test formations and players in a competitive environment? I like Southgate in general.

 

[jasT1981]

Going by what I saw last night.

England fans - Nations League is glorified friendles, they mean nothing and only have a fancy name so they are not friendlies, no one gives a ****
Also England fans - OMG WE LOST IN THE PRESTIGIOUS NATIONS LEAGUE, SACK THE MANAGER NOW!!

 

[UncleBob]

Funny, I didn't feel any of that negativity when I was watching the team's thrilling journey in both the tournament. That's because long term England fans know this is a much better team - balance, coaching, organisation, preparation, strength in depth and results than the ones we've had in the past - and the team proved it.

Can't argue with feelings

You lucked out with the draw, that's it, different group and you would've been knocked out earlier.

 

[simonhch]

I didn’t even know England played tbh. These nation leagues games were a joke. Most of the players are exhausted and mentally on holiday already. They’ll be up for it come the World Cup. Also nothing wrong with receiving a beating once in a while to infuse a little humility.

 

[nickm]

Does the Nations League really matter?

No. But England "fans" love to kick people when they are down, even when it's over a result that doesn't matter.

 

[nickm]

Can't argue with feelings

You lucked out with the draw, that's it, different group and you would've been knocked out earlier.

Well if you aren't in this for the craic, then what is the point?
Yes, luck is part of football, well done for pointing that out.

 

[Bilbo]

Southgate himself used that excuse but was it really that far from one of his first choice XI's?

Still had Stones, James, Walker, Phillips, Bellingham, Saka and Kane starting, with Sterling on at half time and Mount after an hour... Hardly a 'B' team.

I'm not sure that any of Guehi, Gallagher, Bellingham, Saka or Bowen are currently ready for International football. That was half the team, and not even to mention Ramsdale isn't first choice and Philips IMO is a fairly average player.

I've never had an issue with Southgate playing a defensive style of football because I think we have to with this squad. For me though, playing the back 6 he prefers means that we should have freedom amongst the other four positions and I start to question Southgate when he continually uses Saka and, to a lesser extent, Mount in the way that he does. I'll cut the cord with him if he goes into the World Cup with that same XI, but I don't think he will.

Pickford
Shaw/Chilwell
Maguire
Stones
Walker/James/TAA

Rice
Philips/Henderson

Sterling
Foden
Sancho

Kane

This is the team I'd like to see going into the WC. Grealish is best as an impact sub IMO, and Sancho needs to find form. Rashford would I hope also be in a place where he can be considered, but that could go either way.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

So he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't - got it.

Southgate team came off a historic low for the team and has built it to a semi and a final. Good job.

England has a long history of tripping up over under-average opposition, then going out against the first decent team. We have stopped doing this. This is still a young team benchmarked against the average age of final winning teams. As a nation we have lacked full tournament experience that this team is getting.

Not sure where you're coming to this conclusion from. For as long as I've been watching England (since Hoddle was in charge) they have been incredibly consistent against weaker opposition. Apart from the loss to Iceland in 2016, England have always delivered against weaker opposition. When they got knocked out, it was against teams better than or equal to them (the likes of Brazil, Portugal etc). Even when they missed out on the Euros under McClaren, it was because of an excellent Croatia side.

If anything, Southgate has done worse than previous managers when the quality of opposition is taken into consideration. Losing to Belgium in the group stages in 2018 was a blessing because it allowed England to have the easiest route to a semi final possible, but that Belgium side was definitely worse than the usual oppo that England lose to in tournament football. Likewise the Croatia team you lost to in the semis was definitely a worse team than the Croatia side you lost against under McClaren. In terms of the EC last year, Germany was the only good team on paper that England won against and it was a team in disarray.

While I don't rate Southgate, I also don't consider this to be a golden generation. It's certainly worse than the sides that Sven had at his disposal so that context matters.

 

[Wilt]

Is Southgate so good he’s irreplaceable? ….of course he isn’t.

Needs sacking.

 

[UncleBob]

Well if you aren't in this for the craic, then what is the point?
Yes, luck is part of football, well done for pointing that out.

Don't confuse luck with actual improvement. A less favourable draw and the outcome would've been completely different.

 

[nickm]

Don't confuse luck with actual improvement. A less favourable draw and the outcome would've been completely different.

You speak very confidently about something that is impossible to know and didn't happen.

 

[nickm]

Is Southgate so good he’s irreplaceable? ….of course he isn’t.

Needs sacking.

Only an idiot would sack our manager over a glorified friendly a few months out from the world cup.

 

[UncleBob]

You speak very confidently about something that is impossible to know and didn't happen.

Fact is that you lost against pretty much every good team you met, while you won against poor opposition. Not entirely sure why you've convinced yourself that it's impossible to say you would've been knocked out earlier if you had met a good team earlier.

 

[nickm]

Fact is that you lost against pretty much every good team you met, while you won against poor opposition. Not entirely sure why you've convinced yourself that it's impossible to say you would've been knocked out earlier if you had met a good team earlier.

Because the sign of a consistently decent team is getting to the end stages of two major competitions in a row? The sign of them being a good England team (and better than earlier ones) is that they are the first England team to have done it. It's not winning the finals, I admit, but it's the right kind of progress.

 

[DannyCAFC]

End of the day he is gonna lead us to the World Cup whether we like it or not, so I'd rather back him at this moment in time and deal with the consequences afterwards than go in to a World Cup with a toxic atmosphere.

Unfortunately most England fans are fickle as feck and will create that sort of environment which will be our downfall come November.

EDIT: Also I'd love Potter but most managers with any sort of ambition wouldn't touch this job with a barge pole. Not sure who people expect us to replace him with right now.

 

[Dancfc]

Going by what I saw last night.

England fans - Nations League is glorified friendles, they mean nothing and only have a fancy name so they are not friendlies, no one gives a ****
Also England fans - OMG WE LOST IN THE PRESTIGIOUS NATIONS LEAGUE, SACK THE MANAGER NOW!!

Or maybe we see a pattern that could/will lead to a humiliation of a world cup.

Waiting until the damage is done will waste this world cup, both in results and entertainment.

 

[nickm]

While I don't rate Southgate, I also don't consider this to be a golden generation. It's certainly worse than the sides that Sven had at his disposal so that context matters.

This might not be as good a collection of individuals as Sven had, but it's much better team with far less reliance on a messiah type to carry it,.

 

[UncleBob]

Because the sign of a consistently decent team is getting to the end stages of two major competitions in a row? The sign of them being a good England team (and better than earlier ones) is that they are the first England team to have done it. It's not winning the finals, I admit, but it's the right kind of progress.

The right kind of progress is consistently losing against any good side you're up against?

 

[DixieDean]

Not sure where you're coming to this conclusion from. For as long as I've been watching England (since Hoddle was in charge) they have been incredibly consistent against weaker opposition. Apart from the loss to Iceland in 2016, England have always delivered against weaker opposition. When they got knocked out, it was against teams better than or equal to them (the likes of Brazil, Portugal etc). Even when they missed out on the Euros under McClaren, it was because of an excellent Croatia side.

If anything, Southgate has done worse than previous managers when the quality of opposition is taken into consideration. Losing to Belgium in the group stages in 2018 was a blessing because it allowed England to have the easiest route to a semi final possible, but that Belgium side was definitely worse than the usual oppo that England lose to in tournament football. Likewise the Croatia team you lost to in the semis was definitely a worse team than the Croatia side you lost against under McClaren. In terms of the EC last year, Germany was the only good team on paper that England won against and it was a team in disarray.

While I don't rate Southgate, I also don't consider this to be a golden generation. It's certainly worse than the sides that Sven had at his disposal so that context matters.

I agree with a lot of this. Southgate is crap, but I do think the current gen has been overrated somewhat.

 

[Acole9]

He's the type of guy who waits for the traffic lights to change whilst playing GTA.

 

[nickm]

The right kind of progress is consistently losing against any good side you're up against?

Yeah, getting to a WC Semi and a Euro Cup final is obvious progress, you know the clue is in the words 'Semi' and 'Final'. There is no shame in losing a Final to a more experienced national team, even though you seem rather desperate to find some. As an England fan, I have never seen us progress so far in two tournaments. So yeah, it's progress. I'll take it. We'll see whether can go further at end of this year, but this is a group of players who now have a lot of international big game experience, so that's a good start. It's going to be tough, for sure.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

The English (mainly white male) Old Boys Club is THE problem. At every level of football barring the very lowly paid or unpaid, and largely unfunded, bits.

Why is the colour of their skin relevant?

 

[justsomebloke]

Spot on from Barney Ronay:

Gareth Southgate and the never-ending story of English football’s delusions | England | The Guardian

But then this is England, where it is necessary to manage not just the team but also the vast freighted load of English insularity, English expectation. The founding identity of the England football team rests on one basic misconception, that the default option is for England to win. And that, if this is not happening, then there is a problem to solve, because something is fundamentally wrong with the universe.

 

[justsomebloke]

The right kind of progress is consistently losing against any good side you're up against?

In what particular fantasy world has Southgate's England been "consistently losing against any good side they're up against"?

From the article above: It is necessary here to state once again some very simple facts. Southgate has the best win rate of any England manager to oversee 50 games. Southgate has taken England to two semi-finals in five years, after two semi-finals in the previous half a century. Southgate has lost two games out of 26 in the past two years.