Squad is average so getting to semis and finals is doing ok in my book.
So what's next for Sir Gareth Southgate?
- Thread starter Dirty Schwein
- Start date
Hilarious. A national team coach achieves England's third World Cup semi-final appearance in history, and then their first ever finals appearance in the Euros, and what do English fans do? Look under the hood and decide it's really all shite, and due to simple luck. Fans like you truly deserve all the hurt you've been getting since 1966.
I've been watching England since the 1970s, and I think this is the first time in the last 50 years where England has looked like a legitimate top national side for a sustained period - in terms of player talent, in terms of consistency and in terms of results in big tournaments.
They have never previously reached the final four in two consecutive big tournaments, as far as I can recall. Historically, England is not a big national team, but could more accurately be considered essentially a high mid-tier team. A team that has only very rarely reached the final stages of big tournaments. By the standards of past decades, there aren't actually many teams "England should be brushing aside", and it has never, ever, been easy for anyone to reach the semis or final of a major tournament. NO national team routinely brush aside lesser opponents. Not Brazil, not Germany, no one.
We are not talking about a historically dominant national side here, but at most one whose baseline, normal, historical level is basically "mediocre +". By any tolerably sane measure, Southgate's results aren't merely promising or good, they are already exceptional. Bitching about selections and tactics and the strength of opposition is just a refusal to deal with the basic facts of the situation.
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There are so many things people can be happy about. No need to pretend to be happy about something that doesn‘t make you happy.
So wound up about other people‘s thoughts, opinions and feelings.
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Read the first line of my post bud, I'm not English nor a fan of the England national team.
I even literally said this isn't a thread to bash the team (there were many of these around at the time), instead this was a thread to discuss whether people think Sir Gareth was the right man to move forward with or whether the team can go one step further with a different manager... Literally a discussion, which is the whole point of an internet forum.
Not sure why you posted with such an aggressive post there.
What he said - good post
Justin and Bowen started!
IMO all of the below statements are true:
- Southgate is not the best manager England could possibly have at this time
- His record & achievements up to now are vastly underappreciated
- This squad is nowhere near as strong as many people like to believe
Why? IMO because he has us set up in a way that balances our strengths & weaknesses the best way we can. Sometimes that means we strangle games, don't look particularly fluid and leave strong attacking players on the bench. So be it. We are an extremely difficult team to beat and gets us deep into tournaments. This actually looks like a team that enjoys wearing the shirt, as opposed to the 'crippled by pressure' squads we've seen so often in the past.
Unfortunately though Southgate will never receive the credit he deserves from this country, because he doesn't do what many people think he should do. Only winning the world cup and beating France & Brazil along the way will help his reputation, and even then a minority will find fault somewhere.
Would you take him as United manager over ETH? (assuming you support United)
Saying his stats are exceptional and that warrants respect. Sorry but I beg to differ, Ole had a great track record in his managerial United career in terms of league finishes compared to his predecessors (post SAF) but does that mean he is a perfect for United?
NO. Southgate has good man management skills and gives lots of confidence to his players but tactically he is inept. He has a great English talent at disposal but he is not able to harness it.
England doesnt need another average manager, if they doesnt win anything, no one will remember his good work.
No, because the argument is over his credentials as an international manager, not a club manager.
Hence why I put “+3”? And after Bowen‘s season, it’s hardly a ‘wow’? And I wouldn’t be claiming Justin playing as a positive, no idea how got a game…. though I think that about Pickford too and he’s a lock.
8 expected starters, 532, doesn’t strike me as expiremental.
Like @Dirty Schwein , I’m not English and we’re commenting from an outsiders point of view. I can guarantee you though I’m not anti-English (unless they’re playing my country), it’s just an opinion. Two good tournament runs doesn’t make him better than Venables or Robson imo.
No, it's not his "stats" that are exceptional. It's the results. Both in tournaments and out of them. So, clearly he has some ability to harness the talent at his disposal. Unlike a many of his predecessors. Golden generation, anyone? That glorious band of occasional quarterfinalists?
OGS delivered a second and a third place finish, in a club that has won 66 major titles. Gareth Southgate has delivered second- and third-place finishes in consecutive tournaments, for a team that has one win, one second place and two third place finishes throughout history. That's half of England's top four finishes in major tournaments, ever. You seriously think there's a relevant comparison there?
"England doesnt need another average manager, if they doesnt win anything, no one will remember his good work."
See, this is what I'm talking about. Winning tournaments isn't so much an aspiration as a sort of baseline minimum expectation. If there's a major tournament and England didn't win it, that means something's wrong. It's just that England hasn't won one in more than fifty years, which means that this isn't so much a standard as a form of madness.
Holding your team to such insane expectations only serves a purpose if you really, really want to be angry and unhappy. Other than that, and considered as a widespead fan opinion, it has a detrimental effect on your chances of actual winning one, because it places a pressure on the team they cannot possibly live up to, and creates an atmosphere of fear of a failure that, by such standards, is practically inevitable. It hasn't got anything to do with reality. If Southgate (or any other England manager) wins something it would be a unique achievement in modern football. And what they have already achieved surpasses every managerial regime in the history of English football except one.That's like saying that if the Everton manager doesn't win trophies, they should be sacked. It's the definition of unreasonable.
This will be the tournament he gets found out in.
No it's not.
Two players is hardly experimenting and it's only because they're forced... Doubt Bowen would have played had Foden been available or Sterling fully fit. Likewise Justin with Shaw/Chilwell.
If he's not going to try things in these Nations League games, he's never going to.
We lined up that way because Southgate is an idiot though. And Germany outplaying England is also obviously tied to Southgate himself.
Have you seen the Dutch or Spanish forwards or Argentina’s defense? Not even going to start with Senegal.
Almost every country has some weak spots in the roster. Only France can really call upon world class players nearly everywhere.
Not in every position, but in areas of the pitch there's a big gulf in quality. Netherlands have a fantastic group of defenders, France have a world class midfield and attack, Brazil have world class forwards, so on and so forth. England have some very good RBs, but their defence is otherwise pretty ordinary with a mediocre keeper, OK centre backs and inconsistent left backs. The midfield is also a concern when stacked against some of the better midfields in international football (and there's quite a few of them, Italy schooling Phillips and Rice in the second half of the Euros final was testament to that).
The poor players are in their prime, the squad fillers. The top players are virtually all worse now than they were. Grealish, Rice and Sterling are probably the only ones near the same level.
We could have played something like this in the Euro 2020 final and probably won:
Pickford - same player
Walker - older and falling out of the City team now
Maguire - much worse now
Stones - fallen out of the City team
Shaw - worse now
Rice
Henderson - getting old
Sterling - dropped off lately
Rashford - worse now, if he even goes to Qatar
Sancho - will he even go
Kane - worse now
Virtually every position is worse now than it was a couple of years ago. Some players have just aged, whilst some have lost form or ability.
I have to disagree with those saying that England's midfield is not top tier. There may not be a lot of depth insofar as truly quality players are concerned, but there is some real talent in the England midfield that rivals any other country.
I think most would agree here that Foden and Rice are potentially world class players. Add one of Bellingham or Mount to that midfield and you have a great spine to the team with tecnical players that all work hard.
If Southgate were a little more adventerous, he could play a team with Bellingham and Rice as our deeper lying midfielders and Foden sitting just in front. Alternatively, if we wanted a slightly more defensive look, play Mount instead of Foden and have Foden coming in off the right wing. These options are incredible for an international team.
Having players ike Phillips, Henderson and Ward-Prowse in rotation also gives a lot of flexibility for setting up defensively, controlling posession and dangerous set peices too.
CB, LB and GK are all a bit of a concern, granted. But player for player, there really arent many international teams with a better squad than we have.
I think most would agree here that Foden and Rice are potentially world class players. Add one of Bellingham or Mount to that midfield and you have a great spine to the team with tecnical players that all work hard.
If Southgate were a little more adventerous, he could play a team with Bellingham and Rice as our deeper lying midfielders and Foden sitting just in front. Alternatively, if we wanted a slightly more defensive look, play Mount instead of Foden and have Foden coming in off the right wing. These options are incredible for an international team.
Having players ike Phillips, Henderson and Ward-Prowse in rotation also gives a lot of flexibility for setting up defensively, controlling posession and dangerous set peices too.
CB, LB and GK are all a bit of a concern, granted. But player for player, there really arent many international teams with a better squad than we have.
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The International Olle. God he must have been a savior in his previous life. Awful manager. Probably Brentford level at the very best.
Walker is a champsions league finalist for one of the best defences in the league. Same with Stones. Rice strikers FEAR. Sterling has always troubled defences and is a proven internaitonal threat. Mount was instrumental in winning the CL. Kane is Kane. its no worse than any other big side but we have more options. This wasn't our best line up.
We have a weird mentality in England. There are so many fans who feel aggrieved if anyone dares to complain. Not sure where it comes from but think it's culturally filtered down from the 'keep calm and carry on' 'salvation army' mentality from the second world war, stiff upper lip and all that. I think it's arguable that this prevailing miserable culture of 'be grateful for what you're given!' is an element in why we still have Southgate as a boss, and most of all, why we never win feck all. Countries that actually win things, like Spain, Italy, Germany... Have a short shrift in how much mediocrity they will tolerate, before they do something like, y'know, appointing treble winning Hansi Flick as their boss, or Luis Enrique. Meanwhile we all know that England will come up against the first half decent team, 'heroically' defend for their lives despite being gassed from.chasing the ball for 80 minutes and maybe make it to penalties to meet the inevitable exit and countless tearjerking documentaries about the time they 'almost' made it. If I was a fan outside England, i'd find it fecking funny, think they do actually. It's the repeating opera.
The turnips in here who are terrified of anyone complaining incase their national neurosis gets triggered, Christ. It's bloody obvious he's not a good enough manager for that squad, vast majority of neutral foreign fans would agree.
The turnips in here who are terrified of anyone complaining incase their national neurosis gets triggered, Christ. It's bloody obvious he's not a good enough manager for that squad, vast majority of neutral foreign fans would agree.
Was a CL finalist. Was, for all those things you mention really. We had a good team that could have won something, if we had a decent manager. We don't anymore.
It's Sven in 2006 all over again.
I think he's underperforming given the quality at his disposal. But I also find that he comes across as so simple and superficial whenever he opens his mouth. The sheer amount of quality England produces is to blame that he's still in his job.
I agree but if anything isn't that all the more reason to make the games a bit more fun? Especially against the lesser sides.
Hopefully he'll have his Liverpool at home moment against Italy or Germany in this nations league as opposed to the world cup.
atleast nine will start the first WC game if fit, possibly all of them.
Yeah, it is fecking obvious that he isn't nearly good enough. I think maybe people are also so used to the mediocrity of results in past tournaments that they just can't get beyond the simplistic "We made a semi-final and final so he must be good enough or deserves another shot" type of thinking. Of course results are what it is about in the end but its future results that matter. And process - how well you play - is more predictive of future results than past results.
Southgate is like a poker player who just went all in looking for an inside straight and hit his miracle card on the river to win a big hand. And England is now handing him their life savings to gamble with on the logic that he won the last hand so let's back him on the next hand. It is madness and will end in tears.
I'd compare current England side more with us United than Everton. If Everton manager with premium talent at his disposal cannot manage them to challenge or win then yes, he should be sacked.
He`s got good options in the attacking positions but Pickford, Maguire, Coady, Mings are crap, Rice, Phillips and Henderson are limited so for me the defensive spine is extremely flakey.
It's also difficult to find international mangers as it's a not that active throughout the year and top managers are at clubs. You mention Flick and Enrique but they obviously have ties and desires to their country and already won a lot a club level. England doesn't produce managers like them. We could try to tempt someone more progressive like Potter but it's a gamble for him as well and he might not feel ready, We simply don't have one let alone a stock of countrymen to pick. Italy again have a countryman in Mancini, a top manager that has won before.
I'm not supporting Southgate by the way. The FA probably like his man management skills and there isn't much else to choose from. Perhaps an opportunity will arise and we can a find better manager that wants to change paths.
That is at least partly a problem of his own making though.
England don't have world class CBs but players like Tomori, Guehi, and White - perhaps one of them partnered with Stones - are all better options than Maguire, Coady, or Mings.
Rice is an excellent all around central midfielder that just about every club in the world would be interested in if he was priced realistically in the 60-70m range. Henderson is a midfield mainstay for one of the best 2-3 club sides in the world. Clubs like Real Madrid are seriously looking at spending 80m-100m on Bellingham next summer. The idea that England are bereft of midfield talent just doesn't wash. You cannot tell me that a top manager wouldn't figure out how to make a Rice-Henderson-Bellingham midfield (or drop a player like Mount or Grealish into the most advanced role) work in a 4-3-3.
Southgate simply has not idea how to set up a team to make it functional in possession. Most of these players work with the very best managers in the world at club level and are succeeding in very sophisticated tactical systems, then they get to England and there seems to be no plan whatsoever in possession, the players don't fit together, and the tactics are divorced from where the rest of the game has gone.
I think a manager like Luis Enrique that really understands how top teams are playing tactically at club level these days would have this team flying in November (assumes Chilwell is back from injury obviously).
-------Foden-Kane-Saka/Sterling-------
--------Bellingham--Henderson----------
---------------------Rice-------------------------
Chilwell--Tomori-Stones-James/TAA
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He's the one picking those players.
We could have Tomori instead of Mings/Coady for example. A young player who's just got the 2nd highest minutes in AC Milans squad who just won Serie A. Ben Godfrey another possible, Ben White. Why not try these players against a quality team like Germany in a mindless friendly? He's gutless as demonstrated time and time again. Doesn't trust any of his players outside of his favourites. Demonstrated perfectly at the last tournament.
Only if England had been dominating international competitions for 2 decades and had 60+ trophies....
Just reeks of united under solskjaer that final was the make or break and when it came down to the tough decisions he played it safe and went out on penalties just like us.
He's established a solid base now need a manager that will maximise the talent we have available rather then play every game as safe as possible.
He's established a solid base now need a manager that will maximise the talent we have available rather then play every game as safe as possible.
I don't see how these things have changed in one season? City just won the league and were minutes from the CL final having outplayed the eventual champs. Are we pretending all their players are washed now?
in the world cup everyone acknowledged we had one of the strongest squads. What has changed?
If we went with a 3 4 3 with
Stones, Maguire (Wallace) and Walker
Then midfield of CM Rice, CM Leeds fella (or Ward-Prowse), Trent (RW) and Saka (LW) up top Sterling, Kane, Grealish (Foden). Not a bad team no?
Never going to win anything with this guy at the helm.
Championship level manager
Championship level manager
History is good for stats, however it doesn't help the present and future. Also I am talking more about personnel in these teams not comparing their history. Are you saying the current England and Everton squads are on similar level in terms of talent?
A lot of their English contingent have struggled for game time this season as they have lost form. Same with ours.
In his first couple of years in the job Southgate did it better than anyone else could have. He transformed a toxic, miserable culture into one where the players worked for each other, enjoyed their football, and projected a good image to the world. He's a lot to recommend him as a person and he was exactly what England needed at the time.
Since the WC semi-final loss he's not been the best man for the job. He's an impossibly negative manager in a footballing sense and is wasting the attacking talents of one of the best generations of English attackers there's ever been.
The idea he got a new massive contract after that final loss is baffling to me. Went a goal up within minutes, no Spinazzola for Italy, at that point if you keep Chiesa and Insigne quiet and score another goal it's job done. We played another 120 mins of football without a shot on target. That is a laughable outcome from that game and it was pretty clear that England could go no further under his leadership. I think it's only going to get more clear as time goes on as some of his key players seem to have gone right off the boil and many others don't really seem to believe / enjoy themselves like they used to.
Tripper playing LB yesterday with the likes of James and Trent sat on the bench when you need a goal is the exact type of shit he won't get away with as time goes on IMO. Everyone's luck runs out eventually.
Since the WC semi-final loss he's not been the best man for the job. He's an impossibly negative manager in a footballing sense and is wasting the attacking talents of one of the best generations of English attackers there's ever been.
The idea he got a new massive contract after that final loss is baffling to me. Went a goal up within minutes, no Spinazzola for Italy, at that point if you keep Chiesa and Insigne quiet and score another goal it's job done. We played another 120 mins of football without a shot on target. That is a laughable outcome from that game and it was pretty clear that England could go no further under his leadership. I think it's only going to get more clear as time goes on as some of his key players seem to have gone right off the boil and many others don't really seem to believe / enjoy themselves like they used to.
Tripper playing LB yesterday with the likes of James and Trent sat on the bench when you need a goal is the exact type of shit he won't get away with as time goes on IMO. Everyone's luck runs out eventually.
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