So... Was it a red? (Casemiro / Hughes Royal Rumble)

Was it a red?

  • Red

    Votes: 409 33.5%

  • Yellow

    Votes: 415 34.0%

  • No card

    Votes: 270 22.1%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 69 5.6%

  • Can you repeat the question?

    Votes: 59 4.8%
  • Total voters
    1,222
Dion said:
There's more than one angle to look at and even the most ardent "yellow carder" acknowledges his thumbs are obviously on the front of his neck



That's not the shoulders.
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You see something new every time.
 
Adam-Utd said:
nothing he's said is helpful, he's just got the situation completely wrong from a freeze frame.

IF United were to appeal they'd clearly show the angle that shows he only grips his upper shoulder (collar) and nothing is around his neck strangling him at all.

It's quite interesting this thread tbh. Just shows how something out of context can really change the 'opinion' or degree of severity.
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Man.. I was in the camp of "it was nothing, but at most a yellow". But then Xhaka was sent off for that "nothing" neck grabbing. Even maybe 20 years ago when Vieira "kick" RVN's crotch, it was a red card although I don't think any contact was made. THen Keano's swinging his arm with no contact, he got red carded. Beckham was sent off for a fecking nothing "kick" on Simeone.

Basically anything that "appear" to be aggressive during confrontation period could go to whatever the ref's interpretation.

Lesson's learn for Case that he doesn't play for Madrid anymore where they're protected. In PL, there's nothing could please (most of) the refs and FA more than screwing United whenever possible.
 
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Is Hughes a masochist ? Why on earth did he hug his "attacker" after the brawl ?
 
Adam-Utd said:
nothing he's said is helpful, he's just got the situation completely wrong from a freeze frame.

IF United were to appeal they'd clearly show the angle that shows he only grips his upper shoulder (collar) and nothing is around his neck strangling him at all.

It's quite interesting this thread tbh. Just shows how something out of context can really change the 'opinion' or degree of severity.
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It's not about context, but about being rational and unbiased. Casemiro is not allowed to do what he did and was punished.
At least one more played did a similar, if not worse, thing in the incident but wasn't punished.
Doesn't change the fact that Casemiro deserved to be sent off.
 
Isotope said:
Man.. I was in the camp of "it was nothing, but at most a yellow". But then Xhaka was sent off for that "nothing" neck grabbing. Even maybe 20 years ago when Vieira "kick" RVN's crotch, it was a red card although I don't think any contact was made. THen Keano's swinging his arm with no contact, he got red carded.

Basically anything that "appear" to be aggressive during confrontation period could go to whatever the ref's interpretation.

Lesson's learn for Case that he doesn't play for Madrid anymore where they're protected. In PL, there's nothing could please (most of) the refs and FA more than screwing United whenever possible.
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Things have definitely changed, but I don't think this was violent conduct requiring a red card. A yellow at worst for handbags.
georgipep said:
It's not about context, but about being rational and unbiased. Casemiro is not allowed to do what he did and was punished.
At least one more played did a similar, if not worse, thing in the incident but wasn't punished.
Doesn't change the fact that Casemiro deserved to be sent off.
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IF he grabbed him around the throat i'd agree 100% ( and I did on first view on a dodgy stream )

When I saw the proper evidence that he is gripping him by the shirt, that is not violent conduct.

If he gripped the front of his shirt instead of the collar, would he have been sent off? The VAR/Referee have clearly misread the situation, thought he strangled him and sent him off for it.

I'd like to see the referees report from after the game, as if that's the reason he saw red it SHOULD be rescinded.

Grabbing a shirt is not a justification for a red card.
 
Dion said:
No thanks, if you choose not to view it then I can't help you.
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It's on you to supply the evidence for your defence. I'm quite happy with my stance in all this.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Things have definitely changed, but I don't think this was violent conduct requiring a red card. A yellow at worst for handbags.

IF he grabbed him around the throat i'd agree 100% ( and I did on first view on a dodgy stream )

When I saw the proper evidence that he is gripping him by the shirt, that is not violent conduct.

If he gripped the front of his shirt instead of the collar, would he have been sent off? The VAR/Referee have clearly misread the situation, thought he strangled him and sent him off for it.

I'd like to see the referees report from after the game, as if that's the reason he saw red it SHOULD be rescinded.

Grabbing a shirt is not a justification for a red card.
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Watch the video I linked above, from 29-32 seconds you can see there's a big thick black bit where Hughes' throat should be visible. Those are Casemiro's thumbs. It's not just a case of an unfortunate screen grab making it look like that. They're there the entire time.
 
RedNome said:
It's on you to supply the evidence for your defence. I'm quite happy with my stance in all this.
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I have supplied it, it's up to you if you want to watch it. Since you've decided not to there's nothing more for me to consider with your posts.
 
Dion said:
I have supplied it, it's up to you if you want to watch it. Since you've decided not to there's nothing more for me to consider with your posts.
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You're asking me to install new software on my rig to do so.

How is that reasonable?
 
georgipep said:
When a linesman waves their flag above their head, that signals a foul. Watch the replay.
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I watched again. You are right. The lineman flagged the foul. However, the referee didn’t think it a potential issue. So, I now only blame the referee. But yeah, you are right for the first point you made. I am wrong. But the other two are still nonsense.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Things have definitely changed, but I don't think this was violent conduct requiring a red card. A yellow at worst for handbags.

IF he grabbed him around the throat i'd agree 100% ( and I did on first view on a dodgy stream )

When I saw the proper evidence that he is gripping him by the shirt, that is not violent conduct.

If he gripped the front of his shirt instead of the collar, would he have been sent off? The VAR/Referee have clearly misread the situation, thought he strangled him and sent him off for it.

I'd like to see the referees report from after the game, as if that's the reason he saw red it SHOULD be rescinded.

Grabbing a shirt is not a justification for a red card.
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Is Casemiro allowed to grab an opponent by the collar and restrain them?
 
city-puma said:
I watched again. You are right. The lineman flagged the foul. However, the referee didn’t think it a potential issue. So, I now only blame the referee. But yeah, you are right for the first point you made. I am wrong. But the other two are still nonsense.
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Did Schlupp not get a yellow card?
 
georgipep said:
Is Casemiro allowed to grab an opponent by the collar and restrain them?
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If it happened on the pitch challenging for a header it would be a free kick.

A yellow card at worst. Clearly it's a 'foul' but it's not red card worthy. It's simply no worse than pulling any other part of the shirt.

People are thinking he's grabbing the neck but he isn't.
 
RedNome said:
Surely the point at which that screen shot is taken is just at the time he has released his collar before pulling his hands away and holding them up in front of Hughes face?

You can make any case you want with a specially selected freeze frame.

I wonder why some are so anxious to paint an incriminating picture of our own player?

Baffling.
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What part is difficult to comprehend? The thread asks “was it a red card?”, some justifying one way and others justifying another way. I don’t think we need to descend into insults and passive aggressive posting
 
georgipep said:
Is Casemiro allowed to grab an opponent by the collar and restrain them?
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This is the other big issue with appealing, even if you believe 100% he only grabbed an opponent by the collar with two hands... do we think that's not a red and getting rescinded on appeal? I doubt it.
 
Adam-Utd said:
If it happened on the pitch challenging for a header it would be a free kick.

A yellow card at worst. Clearly it's a 'foul' but it's not red card worthy. It's simply no worse than pulling any other part of the shirt.

People are thinking he's grabbing the neck but he isn't.
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Out of play aggression is punishable more severely by the book.

I really don't get why are you and a few other even arguing this. Casemiro definitely made a big mistake putting himself in a situation to get sent off.

The fact that the refs made a total mess of the situation is a whole other story.
 
Isotope said:
Man.. I was in the camp of "it was nothing, but at most a yellow". But then Xhaka was sent off for that "nothing" neck grabbing. Even maybe 20 years ago when Vieira "kick" RVN's crotch, it was a red card although I don't think any contact was made. THen Keano's swinging his arm with no contact, he got red carded. Beckham was sent off for a fecking nothing "kick" on Simeone.

Basically anything that "appear" to be aggressive during confrontation period could go to whatever the ref's interpretation.

Lesson's learn for Case that he doesn't play for Madrid anymore where they're protected. In PL, there's nothing could please (most of) the refs and FA more than screwing United whenever possible.
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Exactly. He put his hands up, therefore the ref had the choice to send him off. We can talk about angles and what way the shirt is ruffled and so on but it’s all irrelevant
 
Dion said:
This is the other big issue with appealing, even if you believe 100% he only grabbed an opponent by the collar with two hands... do we think that's not a red and getting rescinded on appeal? I doubt it.
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Indeed. I am baffled by our fans inability to accept reality.
 
city-puma said:
I watched again. You are right. The lineman flagged the foul. However, the referee didn’t think it a potential issue. So, I now only blame the referee. But yeah, you are right for the first point you made. I am wrong. But the other two are still nonsense.
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No, the ref stood off and watched the brawl from a distance. Schlupp was going to get booked for pushing Antony down the slope for sure, then Antony got back up and joined the fight, escalating it. He also got booked. Then after everything was clearing up, the ref got a call from VAR to take a closer look at the hands on throat.
 
golden_blunder said:
What part is difficult to comprehend? The thread asks “was it a red card?”, some justifying one way and others justifying another way. I don’t think we need to descend into insults and passive aggressive posting
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I'm not sure what was so unreasonable about that post tbh, I know you disagree with me but still, it's a perfectly fine question to ask when people are using selective still images to paint the wrong picture.
 
golden_blunder said:
Exactly. He put his hands up, therefore the ref had the choice to send him off. We can talk about angles and what way the shirt is ruffled and so on but it’s all irrelevant
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Sure, boss. I'm almost 100% sure the appeal will fail, as they have enough ground to side with ref's decision, no matter what people think.

Also, the FA loves to use United as "precedent". It seems like there's a notion to "go get United" recently.
 
RedNome said:
I'm not sure what was so unreasonable about that post tbh, I know you disagree with me but still, it's a perfectly fine question to ask when people are using selective still images to paint the wrong picture.
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The images are irrelevant at this point. We can all agree that he put his hands up yeah?
 
georgipep said:
Out of play aggression is punishable more severely by the book.

I really don't get why are you and a few other even arguing this. Casemiro definitely made a big mistake putting himself in a situation to get sent off.

The fact that the refs made a total mess of the situation is a whole other story.
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I don't think anybody is arguing it's a mistake, but there's a big difference between grabbing somebody by the throat and throttling them - or gripping their shirt by the collar.

We see brawls like this all the time, why is a physical shove (which happens plenty) less aggressive than gripping a shirt? is it ok to push and shove but not ok to grab a shirt?

It's simply not bad enough to warrant a red card for me. The VAR and ref got it wrong.

MOTD were right - it's handbags at dawn, tell them all to get their heads in check and move on.
 
golden_blunder said:
The images are irrelevant at this point. We can all agree that he put his hands up yeah?
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I don't know what you want me to say to really, I'm not blind, and that's not what I am disputing, if you're happy with a red card given for such a thing that's fine, but should context be taken into account in all this? Surely you can agree that he wasn't out to hurt and was clearly trying to diffuse and keep Hughes away from the brawl? I've seen no rule about holding a players shirt being a three match ban.
 
golden_blunder said:
Exactly. He put his hands up, therefore the ref had the choice to send him off. We can talk about angles and what way the shirt is ruffled and so on but it’s all irrelevant
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Maybe irrelevant to whether it’s a red card but when people are insistent on saying he grabbed around the neck and choked him which is clearly violent conduct , it’s not too far to try and correct them and say that didn’t happen and maybe grabbing a shirt is not violent conduct.
 
Eriku said:
Did he wrap his hands around his neck though? Seems like the alternate angles show that he didn’t.

Virtually nobody is condoning a chokehold.
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I'd much rather ask you in return why you would tolerate such scenes, and how you think one should distinguish tolerable from untolerable.

Isn't it much better to define nogos broadly, (e.g. violent conduct, or red for a tackle from behind), - again regardless of the force you apply, the face the guy makes or the heat of the moment? (Noone justifies the tackle against Eriksen with the fcker did play the ball, instead in the spirit if the game we say tackle from behind and do not care about minute details.)

I think we enter troublesome territory when trying to justify this scene with the positioning of his thumbs, because it opens up all sorts of problems elsewhere. (Although admittedly, it's seemingly what the industry looks for, see new hands rules, VAR, etc). Point being is if a point for violent conduct can be made, the decision for red is fair, and when the point must be made, it's unfair not to decide on red.

Apart from that, VAR threatens to change the culture towards stuff that's very doubtful, to say the least. Real-time feeling vs slow-motion vs standstills - you bet it isn't long before playing the VAR becomes fashionable, and virtually noone wants this neither, right?

(I confessed earlier that I really dislike brawls, and as someone said above, even halfway aggressive behavior in a brawl counts.)
 
RedNome said:
I don't know what you want me to say to really, I'm not blind, and that's not what I am disputing, if you're happy with a red card given for such a thing that's fine, but should context be taken into account in all this? Surely you can agree that he wasn't out to hurt and was clearly trying to diffuse and keep Hughes away from the brawl? I've seen no rule about holding a players shirt being a three match ban.
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I don’t know what went through his head initially but it did appear that he changed his mind quickly and tried to get out of it.
However my point remains, you put your haves up like that you’d better be prepared to face the consequences
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Maybe irrelevant to whether it’s a red card but when people are insistent on saying he grabbed around the neck and choked him which is clearly violent conduct , it’s not too far to try and correct them and say that didn’t happen and maybe grabbing a shirt is not violent conduct.
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He put his hands up.

that’s the only relevant bit
 
georgipep said:
Is Casemiro allowed to grab an opponent by the collar and restrain them?
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That’s such a dishonest argument because nobody’s allowed to engage in a melee on the pitch. Do you expect the referee to send 20 players off every time this happens?
 
golden_blunder said:
I don’t know what went through his head initially but it did appear that he changed his mind quickly and tried to get out of it.
However my point remains, you put your haves up like that you’d better be prepared to face the consequences
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Maybe, maybe not, only Case knows that, all I can go on is every video from every angle I have seen and draw my own conclusions which I think I have made fairly clear in this thread, I have no issue with you disagreeing with me but my stance hasn't changed (unlike some) from the first time I saw it.
 
Love how there are still people doubling down on him strangling him when it’s clear he didn’t. The ban won’t be rescinded because that’s VAR admitting it messed up but it will get shortened.
 
golden_blunder said:
He put his hands up.

that’s the only relevant bit
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It’s clearly not the only relevant bit because multiple players put their hands up yet only one got sent off. To understand why you have to somehow differentiate between what Casemiro did that was so much worse than what Ayew, for example, did. Which is that they believed that Casemiro was holding Hughes in a chokehold. Something which, based on evidence, some of which was available at the time but deliberately not shown to the referee, was shown not to be the case, especially given the context of other footage that has later appeared on the internet.
 
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