So the 3-5-2

sullydnl said:
Not convinced but on paper it does solve a fair few problems. We'll see...
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This is my attitude tbh. On paper it solves the Rooney, RVP and Mata issue, it means we can play an extra CB as we've been shaky there and it means that we're not relying on our underperforming wingers.
 
To be fair, our defence wasn't really tested today, and I saw nothing to convince me that we'll be capable of keeping things tight at our end when we're up against some good sides.

The attack looked good obviously, but RVP-Rooney upfront will leave us with the pace issue again, something that Welbeck and Young were providing today. LVG has a few problems on his plate. Let's see how this lineup does against the likes of Real Madrid.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Why do people keep saying this?
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My big reservations is that teams like to play with width. When you're reliant on the full backs getting forward to give you that width you're going to be naturally vulnerable to them being turned around. Furthermore, the front 3 is incredibly one paced and I can't see them stretching teams enough.

Anyway, having actually read what Van Gaal said I don't think 'we're going to be playing 3-5-2' is the right interpretation we clearly will play it, but its a new system to be bedded in and made sense to start with it. His insistence that we can play other formations suggests a flexibility.
 
As lvg always does he is choosing a system designed to get the best out of the players we have. We are top heavy in terms of the best talent in this team so he is adapting.

He used a similar system in world cup, robben was the second 'striker' but he had more of a free role. I wouldnt be sirprised if welbeck and/or januzaj were given that role instead of the 'number 10'.

This also gives credence to Ducker's somewhat matter of fact statement that we were after likes of hummels/de vrij and Vermaelen. Would expect at least two of them coming in now.

no idea where young or nani would fit into such a system...so thats a good thing

also, shaw was made for a wing back role, as was rafael, those who think otherwise didnt see much of Southampton last year!
 
Spielmacher said:
That doesn't make any sense. With 3 CB's they'd have less defensive responsibilities and Evra already played as advanced as possible in the back-four. They would both be better, if played as wing-backs in Van Gaal's 3-4-1-2.
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I see what you are saying.

But it depends on who the left sided centre back was, who they were playing against, what would happen against a Navas/Zabaleta combination for example.

Different story to playing Burnley.

Guess all will be revealed this season.
 
Kayo said:
I see what you are saying.

But it depends on who the left sided centre back was, who they were playing against, what would happen against a Navas/Zabaleta combination for example.

Different story to playing Burnley.

Guess all will be revealed this season.
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I'm worried about stronger oppositions too as they might easily pull apart our CB's and create spaces, but what you said was not true, Evra was already very attacking in the 4-4-2, his defending wouldn't get worser if there were more defenders covering him.
 
JSMHE said:
It seems it's the opposite as what I think. Di Maria position is a winger and attacking mid.
When he plays as a central role, he will get more advanced role because he's not that good at defending.....
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That isn t true at all. A big part of the reason why he successfuly transitioned into a center midfielder both for club and country is his ability to defend. It is one of the srtengths of his game.
 
From what we've seen from van Gaal, it seems that he's one of the most tactically versatile managers in the world right now. I'm not particularly worried about any of the teams ripping us apart due to tactics because I'm convinced van Gaal will have two or three different systems for the team.
 
A few promising signs early on that will improve as the players become accustomed to it, even if it will be against infinitely superior opposition than LA Galaxy.

From a defensive perspective it looked quite good. Agree with bishblaise about how much more difficult it is to maintain your defensive shape and keep your backline three aligned, opposed to a back two/four where it's pretty simplistic with the right coaching and able players. As it is, Smalling, Jones and Evans were impressive in their positional play, save for LA exploiting space down Evans' side in the early stages. When one of the three pressed the opposition and came out of defence, Fletcher did well to momentarily fill in also. We could well be playing with two number #8's next season if we sign Vidal however, so the three defenders might have to sit back more and be more cautious.

The main concern is the wingbacks for me. You could see how uncomfortable Shaw was in that role right from the off and playing high up the pitch didn't suit his natural game whereby his defensive work is more impressive than the attacking outlet he would provide. It's his first game, so not much should be read into it and his attacking game will improve, but it takes emphasis away from his solid defensive game and expects too much from him offensively. However, in the long run the right side looks more of a weakness. Valencia was again inept going forward and looked out of his depth, but he should do better there with more time on the ball in the final third. You'd think Rafael would displace Valencia, but being deployed as a fullback might be more befitting of his ability. He will certainly be a better attacking outlet than Valencia though.

The midfield looked good. Very compact, good pressing and it's such a huge relief to have someone like Herrera who can play at such a high pace whether it's running with the ball, linking with teammates or darting into space. He was exceptional and will be hugely important for this system to work. Fletcher anchored quite well, but as I said, we will likely sign another midfielder, so it's getting the balance right. Good energy, good tactical discipline and good interplay at times. Probably the most encouraging signs ahead of the defence and attack funnily enough.

Onto the attack. Personally I think this system really requires a pacy forward - Welbeck in our case - who can stretch play and supplement movement, otherwise the attack is far too static. It's a system where all three of van Persie, Mata and Rooney would be deployed in their correct positions, but it isn't the conundrum to playing all three at once and quite frankly I don't think there is one. If LVG really does plan to use this formation frequently, Welbeck is essential out of our current options and then it's a toss-up between van Persie and Rooney.

In summary, the centre backs will improve and develop a better understanding of their role with more game time. However, the wingbacks could be a potential weakness. The midfield looks very positive with Herrera and Mata and the forward line still doesn't solve the van Persie/Rooney conundrum. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
 
tombombadil said:
Ah I really have to apologize for my mistake.

Well this makes things really interesting as to how the other players will fit into the squad. I guess there will be flexibility in the formation as well.
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Sorry, but doesn't really change anything if it's a press conference or just a short interview?
 
bishblaize said:
How so?
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I don't like the idea that our penetrative play id supposed to come from defenders. The formation appears to have little room for the Hazards, Riberys, Ronaldinhos etc in this formation, or perhaps only one in the 10 role.

Already I struggle to see Januzaj fitting into this formation. Now it will be a fight with Mata, Shinji etc for the 10 role, when in other systems there is room for both, or even all three. Other than that, he will have to play as some sort of wing-back. I'm just not convinced the system can accommodate modern wide attackers.

In addition, there is no Robben in the Rooney/Persie partnership. The x-factor is missing, and should not be expected from Shaw and Rafael in my view.

I appreciate the value of teamwork, but although I am obviously less knowledgeable than LVG, my philosophy is that you need a balance between team cohesion and individual brilliance to make a top team. I think this formation, with our players anyway, is too geared towards winning as a system/unit, with less scope for individuals to make the difference. The great Barca team was a fantastic unit with the best cohesion I've ever seen, yet they were still set up with enough freedom to accommodate the free spirits they had. I think the emphasis on the unit may be just too much with us, which I think will cause us to still fall a bit short, because sprinklings of magic are always needed in tough games. A game changer (or two), not a case of just 'everyone must do their roles'.

Think of the Dutch team this World Cup with Huntelaar and Persie up front instead of Persie/Robben. I think for the style to work for us, we need a Robben as a game-changer, not Rooney and Persie. Too rigid in my view.
 
Gary Neville will not be a happy bunny, that's for sure.
 
Something about United playing 3 at the back doesn't feel right for me.

We were always a 4 at the back team. We've always had great centre halves and full backs.

I'm not sure about this. Just coz we thrashed LA Galaxy I'm not getting overly excited about our 'new' formation.
 
Rozay said:
I don't like the idea that our penetrative play id supposed to come from defenders. The formation appears to have little room for the Hazards, Riberys, Ronaldinhos etc in this formation, or perhaps only one in the 10 role.

Already I struggle to see Januzaj fitting into this formation. Now it will be a fight with Mata, Shinji etc for the 10 role, when in other systems there is room for both, or even all three. Other than that, he will have to play as some sort of wing-back. I'm just not convinced the system can accommodate modern wide attackers.

In addition, there is no Robben in the Rooney/Persie partnership. The x-factor is missing, and should not be expected from Shaw and Rafael in my view.

I appreciate the value of teamwork, but although I am obviously less knowledgeable than LVG, my philosophy is that you need a balance between team cohesion and individual brilliance to make a top team. I think this formation, with our players anyway, is too geared towards winning as a system/unit, with less scope for individuals to make the difference. The great Barca team was a fantastic unit with the best cohesion I've ever seen, yet they were still set up with enough freedom to accommodate the free spirits they had. I think the emphasis on the unit may be just too much with us, which I think will cause us to still fall a bit short, because sprinklings of magic are always needed in tough games. A game changer (or two), not a case of just 'everyone must do their roles'.

Think of the Dutch team this World Cup with Huntelaar and Persie up front instead of Persie/Robben. I think for the style to work for us, we need a Robben as a game-changer, not Rooney and Persie. Too rigid in my view.
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Agree with that assessment and it's apparent that you win against the biggest teams you need an element of unpredictability because the top teams will nullify the normal passing routes making the need for the x factor more pronounced. Players like Navas,Hazard and Sanchez can ruthlessly exploit the spaces between the fullback and the centreback, and the system is vulnerable to the wings being overloaded.
 
Loved the look of us last night/this morning.

The only reservations I have would be that RvP and Rooney might not be mobile enough as a front two (very little pace), and Januzaj's playing time looking limited if we aren't playing with wingers. Although he could be an option either as a number 10 backup to Mata, or as one of the front 2.
 
For what it's worth: at the World Cup LVG wanted to play 4-3-3 against Australia. But after just having trashed Spain with 5-1, the players asked to play in the same formation and he listened to them. Post match he commented basically that it was a mistake and he should've played 4-3-3.

Same goes for the game against Costa Rica, if it weren't a quarter-final World Cup match, he would've played 4-3-3 probably. So the people who only watched LVG at the World Cup and think it was his plan to play 3 at the back for the whole World Cup are perhaps a bit misguided.

Only watched the first vs. Galaxy half then fall asleep, but we looked very solid with 3 at the back not giving away any real chances in the first half I can remember. What I especially like is that the likes of Welbeck and Smalling didn't get played out of position, same for Mata, Welbeck just isn't a winger and Smalling just isn't a right back. Any team that sets up like this is just very hard to beat, and with the insane quality upfront you're always going to score.

Downside will be, like Van Gaal says, the moment we lose. Because at that moment you've played a match with one extra centre-back, costing you one extra midfielder or attacker. So as long as you're winning it's no problem, but the moment you lose you're asking yourself why someone like Nani or Januzaj wasn't given the chance, while Smalling was on the pitch the whole match and all that. But against better opponents, mainly Chelsea and Manchester City, but perhaps also Liverpool or Arsenal away, this system might give some extra security that we need to compete for the league title.
 
Carl said:
This is my attitude tbh. On paper it solves the Rooney, RVP and Mata issue, it means we can play an extra CB as we've been shaky there and it means that we're not relying on our underperforming wingers.
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But without a couple of extra signings, we're one injury away from it all falling apart at the back. That's always been my worry whenever playing 3 centre backs has been suggested. I suppose Michael Keane along with the one centre back we will definitely bring in(Vermaelen, De Vrij or whoever) could be enough with no Europe this season but I'm still not convinced on Evans, Jones and Smalling to stay fit for large parts of the season.
 
Nickosaur said:
Loved the look of us last night/this morning.

The only reservations I have would be that RvP and Rooney might not be mobile enough as a front two (very little pace), and Januzaj's playing time looking limited. Although he could be an option either as a number 10 backup to Mata, or as one of the front 2.
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Most oppositions in the PL might approach us rather defensively, with a high ball possession on our side, which should allow us to play Rooney & Van Person without big troubles because of pace. Against stronger oppositions where we might rather counter I think it's defenitely necessary to play Welbeck or one of our wingers aside Rooney/RVP.
 
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Mystry said:
But without a couple of extra signings, we're one injury away from it all falling apart at the back. That's always been my worry whenever playing 3 centre backs has been suggested. I suppose Michael Keane along with the one centre back we will definitely bring in(Vermaelen, De Vrij or whoever) could be enough with no Europe this season but I'm still not convinced on Evans, Jones and Smalling to stay fit for large parts of the season.
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The window hasn't shut yet and the 2 most obvious signings we're likely to make are a CB and a LB. Vermaelen and Blind probably.
 
Ultimately, Liverpool played the same formation last season, but they have the players for it. For me, it just looks like another manager who doesn't want to address the Rooney / Persie issue.

With the speed of Sturridge, Suarez and Sterling, Liverpool had the right players for it.
 
Premier league teams use different approaches and tactics, so we can't really say that 4-4-3 or 4-4-2 would work better than 3-5-2, it's all about playing the system that suits you most, do we have the right players for 3-5-2? only time will tell.
 
I'd be a bit worried if that '4 #10s' comment means he thinks Januzaj is a #10. He can play there, but he's more dangerous coming in off the wing. And that's obviously where we should be playing him, given the aforementioned glut of #10s and our lack of reliable wingers.
 
Early days but if he can make the 3-5-2/3-4-1-2 work then he'll have solved probably the biggest tactical issue facing us for the last few years, namely the desire to play two strikers while also having a midfield that will be able to compete and not be outnumbered. I know it'll be more fluid than a few flat banks of players but it'd be great to see Rooney and RvP finally play close to each other and hopefully work on a proper partnership, rather than last season's version where RvP was left isolated up front while Rooney was used as a sticking plaster everywhere else.
 
I'd prefer if we bought a pure DM to play alongside Ander and field a winger on the right, with Mata, RVP and Rooney we severely lack pace to play with them as our only attacking players. Play a front six of De Jong/Schneiderlin, Herrera, Mata, Januzaj, RVP and Rooney and we will have a balance and unpredictability in attack. In offence I'd have Mata drifting centrally in offence and supporting Shaw on the left off the ball, much like Silva does for City with Januzaj/Nani/ new signing to play on the right. Anyway if we are winning, and go on to win with it, I won't complain.
 
Brightonian said:
I'd be a bit worried if that '4 #10s' comment means he thinks Januzaj is a #10. He can play there, but he's more dangerous coming in off the wing. And that's obviously where we should be playing him, given the aforementioned glut of #10s and our lack of reliable wingers.
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I don't think thats true. I think Januzaj is a number 10 who can play on the wings.
 
Brightonian said:
I'd be a bit worried if that '4 #10s' comment means he thinks Januzaj is a #10. He can play there, but he's more dangerous coming in off the wing. And that's obviously where we should be playing him, given the aforementioned glut of #10s and our lack of reliable wingers.
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I immediately thought of Rooney, Mata, Kagawa and Fellaini or Herrera.

Adnan is basically our only attacking left sided player, so I'd be very surprised if LvG doesn't view him as a left winger.
 
Brightonian said:
I'd be a bit worried if that '4 #10s' comment means he thinks Januzaj is a #10. He can play there, but he's more dangerous coming in off the wing. And that's obviously where we should be playing him, given the aforementioned glut of #10s and our lack of reliable wingers.
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Januzaj is a #10 that can play on the wings. For the youth teams he was a #10. For the reserves he played as a rw, #10, and striker. I personally thought he was best either as a rw or as a #10.
 
We can play it with one of RVP or Rooney, Januzaj or Welbeck as the 2 strikers and Kagawa or Mata behind them.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
That isn t true at all. A big part of the reason why he successfuly transitioned into a center midfielder both for club and country is his ability to defend. It is one of the srtengths of his game.
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So you are saying he's good at defending? By the way Just wanna let you know my midfield defensive work is I don't rate Mata and Shinji are good in defending.
 
Brightonian said:
I'd be a bit worried if that '4 #10s' comment means he thinks Januzaj is a #10. He can play there, but he's more dangerous coming in off the wing. And that's obviously where we should be playing him, given the aforementioned glut of #10s and our lack of reliable wingers.
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There's no space for a winger like Januzaj in 352 and 343 as he doesn't contribute defensively enough to play there, he'll be great behind the forwards though and I think could even play in the attack if he wanted.
 
Rozay said:
I don't like the idea that our penetrative play id supposed to come from defenders. The formation appears to have little room for the Hazards, Riberys, Ronaldinhos etc in this formation, or perhaps only one in the 10 role.

Already I struggle to see Januzaj fitting into this formation. Now it will be a fight with Mata, Shinji etc for the 10 role, when in other systems there is room for both, or even all three. Other than that, he will have to play as some sort of wing-back. I'm just not convinced the system can accommodate modern wide attackers.

In addition, there is no Robben in the Rooney/Persie partnership. The x-factor is missing, and should not be expected from Shaw and Rafael in my view.

I appreciate the value of teamwork, but although I am obviously less knowledgeable than LVG, my philosophy is that you need a balance between team cohesion and individual brilliance to make a top team. I think this formation, with our players anyway, is too geared towards winning as a system/unit, with less scope for individuals to make the difference. The great Barca team was a fantastic unit with the best cohesion I've ever seen, yet they were still set up with enough freedom to accommodate the free spirits they had. I think the emphasis on the unit may be just too much with us, which I think will cause us to still fall a bit short, because sprinklings of magic are always needed in tough games. A game changer (or two), not a case of just 'everyone must do their roles'.

Think of the Dutch team this World Cup with Huntelaar and Persie up front instead of Persie/Robben. I think for the style to work for us, we need a Robben as a game-changer, not Rooney and Persie. Too rigid in my view.
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To be honest there are two different issues there, one of personnel and one of formation.

In terms of personnel, if we had Robben, Ribery, Ronaldo or Bale in the squad, I'm sure he'd find a formation that would accommodate their preference to attacking from wide areas. However our wide attacking options are currently Valencia, Young, Nani and Januzaj. And while Januzaj is quality, he's not at the point where you build a whole team around him, particularly as so many others would be out of position.

As things stand Mata, Rooney and RvP are our best attacking options, with Hernandez and Wellbeck after them. So at the mo its about maximising what we have. All those players are at their best in central areas (maybe not Danny) so finding a way to keep them there makes sense.

In terms of formation, I don't see that it restricts individual input any more or less than any other formation. The 3-4-3 we're apparently going for still involves a trio of attackers interchanging to create opportunities.

What it does do is put the area where that happens firmly in the middle of the pitch, rather than starting wide. But if we're going with RvP-Rooney-Mata then that's their strengths anyway. None of those three want to be starting from wide positions, and none are beating a man with trickery and pace. Again, if we had Ribery or Robben we van gaal might think differently.

3-4-3 isn't my all time favourite formation. But in terms of using who we have in the squad and getting them playing where they want, it feels like a good fit right now.
 
Brightonian said:
I'd be a bit worried if that '4 #10s' comment means he thinks Januzaj is a #10. He can play there, but he's more dangerous coming in off the wing. And that's obviously where we should be playing him, given the aforementioned glut of #10s and our lack of reliable wingers.
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Its his preferred position, though LVG might also have been talking about Fellaini (assuming Rooney, Kagawa, Mata are the other three.)

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...for-Wayne-Rooney-s-place-at-Manchester-United
 
Baby Faced Assassin said:
It has worked well for LVG so far.

But a more tactically astute manager like Jose, will exploit the space between the centre-backs and the full-backs but as LVG said, in that case it is adaptable to a 4-3-3.

Either ways we still need another proper CM to play alongside Herrera, preferably Vidal or Strootman.

And another centre-back, Hummels is the obvious choice but De Vrij would also be a good cheaper option.
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This is my concern. Particularly when we play Chelsea and Liverpool. Their wider players, such as: Hazard, William, Sterling, Coutinho, Markovic etc are all intelligent players. They'll look to exploit the space behind the wing-backs and drag our CBs out wide.
 
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