So Jose Was Right?

No, that doesn’t follow from what I said at all.

You said the whole world knew he was the wrong choice. Even if you allow for the error of appointing him you can’t excuse the way the board overruled him on management issues and expected him to carry on happily instead of just sacking him. Unless you have a little soft spot for Woody and the Glazers of course.

In summer 2018 everyone knew he was the wrong choice. Just because one or two decisions didn't go his way doesn't even mean he wasn't backed, the word itself lost entire meaning

"Jose wanted to sell Martial but board didn't, omg Jose isn't backed" is a rubbish point when he spent shit loads of money and on wages to assemble the squad he had. Every manager will have decisions that goes against them, not everything goes public.

Klopp wanted Brandt, Liverpool signed Salah. Does that mean Liverpool didn't back Klopp?

People just make up excuses for failure instead of admitting the manager wasn't good enough.
 
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Pep "wasn't backed" last summer when City didn't sign Kane.

Instead of throwing a hissy fit he went and won the league again (in all likelihood) anyway.
 
Pep "wasn't backed" last summer when City didn't sign Kane.

Instead of throwing a hissy fit he went and won the league again (in all likelihood) anyway.

Exactly, pep was never backed. They didn't sell Yaya immediately, they didn't sign Fred, Sanchez, VvD, Jorginho. Signed Mahrez and Laporte 6 months late.
 
In summer 2018 everyone knew he was the wrong choice. Just because one or two decisions didn't go his way doesn't even mean he wasn't backed, the word itself lost entire meaning

"Jose wanted to sell Martial but board didn't, omg Jose isn't backed" is a rubbish point when he spent shit loads of money and on wages to assemble the squad he had. Every manager will have decisions that goes against them, not everything goes public.

Klopp wanted Brandt, Liverpool signed Salah. Does that mean Liverpool didn't back Klopp?

People just make up excuses for failure instead of admitting the manager wasn't good enough.
I think most people on here agree he wasn’t right for us. However, he so obviously wasn’t being backed, as I said before, in the post you initially replied to, it’s not about one player or how much we spent. Guaranteed if Klopp wants to get rid of a player there is no imbecile giving him reasons why he can’t.
 
I think most people on here agree he wasn’t right for us. However, he so obviously wasn’t being backed, as I said before, in the post you initially replied to, it’s not about one player or how much we spent. Guaranteed if Klopp wants to get rid of a player there is no imbecile giving him reasons why he can’t.

So getting rid of the player means he was backed? How about manager not getting the player he wanted?

If Klopp wants to get rid of player, they will be sold because he doesn't fall out with entire dressing room. So it's easy decision. Same with Pep too, on the other hand Jose falls out with every player and loses dressing room. No club changes it's entire players.

Also it's ridiculous to come up with "he wasn't backed" just because one player wasnt sold. No manager gets everything they want, it's not possible but they carry on with the job. It shows how shit Jose was when the point to defend him is "player x wasn't sold".
 
So getting rid of the player means he was backed? How about manager not getting the player he wanted?

If Klopp wants to get rid of player, they will be sold because he doesn't fall out with entire dressing room. So it's easy decision. Same with Pep too, on the other hand Jose falls out with every player and loses dressing room. No club changes it's entire players.

Also it's ridiculous to come up with "he wasn't backed" just because one player wasnt sold. No manager gets everything they want, it's not possible but they carry on with the job. It shows how shit Jose was when the point to defend him is "player x wasn't sold".
As I said it wasn’t about one player, do you really think anyone is saying that?

It was the whole culture. He wasn’t given the freedom to create the culture and standards he knew would be required to win. You may have noticed that this forum is now overflowing with comments saying that that is exactly what is required. Ten Haag apparently demanded assurance on that and probably feared the same shit that happened with Jose happening to him.
 
I like the revolutionism and basing everything on one season, just like people saying Chelsea came from 10th to win the league and ignore the fact they were champions the previous season anyway and were just bad for certain circumstances in that very season.

Man City won the league title in 2014 and finished 2nd the next season, meanwhile United finished 7th and 4th in both (barely finished 4th in fact). They also won 2 league cups and reached CL semi final in that period, while Man United were trophyless and got KOed from a shitty group in CL to get KOed again by the first good team to meet in Europe League.

They were miles ahead of us. They just had an off season, and in that off season, surprise, they still won a cup and reached CL semi.

When will people stop basing everything on one year and not on the whole picture ?
So what you're saying is that we should not base everything on 1 year like the year Mourinho finished 2nd, and instead base it on the whole picture like Mourinho finishing 6th, and being in 7th when Ole took over?

Or does that basing it on 1 year argument only work when it makes Mourinho look better?
 
So what you're saying is that we should not base everything on 1 year like the year Mourinho finished 2nd, and instead base it on the whole picture like Mourinho finishing 6th, and being in 7th when Ole took over?

Or does that basing it on 1 year argument only work when it makes Mourinho look better?

Except no one said we were world beaters under Mourinho.

We're just saying he wasn't the ultimate devil as people like to paint him out to be.

He wasn't a big success but his period wasn't fully shit either.
 
Except no one said we were world beaters under Mourinho.

We're just saying he wasn't the ultimate devil as people like to paint him out to be.

He wasn't a big success but his period wasn't fully shit either.
And the rest of us are saying Mourinho was just another one of the failures that have been employed by the club. It seems like there are many who are trying to repaint Mourinho as having been a failure only due to things outside his control. Otherwise what's the point of this topic?
 
As I said it wasn’t about one player, do you really think anyone is saying that?

It was the whole culture. He wasn’t given the freedom to create the culture and standards he knew would be required to win. You may have noticed that this forum is now overflowing with comments saying that that is exactly what is required. Ten Haag apparently demanded assurance on that and probably feared the same shit that happened with Jose happening to him.

What culture exactly? Sign old players and players who are looking for last big contract and don't give a shit?

You are just making up things. Jose was given free hand, that's why so many players were sold.
 
Insane how he's still getting defended by his acolytes on here.

He basically spat on the club after his post-match presser vs Sevilla. He should have been sacked there and never allowed to step foot in OT again as a supporter.

He was terrible for the club. Just because he was the least terrible manager post-SAF isn't some glowing endorsement on him.
 
What culture exactly? Sign old players and players who are looking for last big contract and don't give a shit?

You are just making up things. Jose was given free hand, that's why so many players were sold.

Rubbish. That so called culture started before him - Schweinsteiger anyone?

The funny thing is, the most extreme example of it in his first Summer - the signing of a mid 30s Zlatan - was actually a success as he scored plenty of goals and players like Rashford thanked him for his off the field help.

Transfers at this rotten club have always been far too influenced by commercial money experts. Free hand really does not apply to any of the managers post Fergie, and I'd argue especially Mourinho. Remember, Sanchez was thrust upon him.
 
Rubbish. That so called culture started before him - Schweinsteiger anyone?

The funny thing is, the most extreme example of it in his first Summer - the signing of a mid 30s Zlatan - was actually a success as he scored plenty of goals and players like Rashford thanked him for his off the field help.

Transfers at this rotten club have always been far too influenced by commercial money experts. Free hand really does not apply to any of the managers post Fergie, and I'd argue especially Mourinho. Remember, Sanchez was thrust upon him.

Nonsense, manager had option to veto any transfer, this is the kind of nonsense his fans come up with to excuse his failure.

We might not sign every player manager wants but we don't sign a player that manager don't want. We don't have that much money or vision to think about future. We don't even have DoF type figure to put pressure or intervene with line ups.
 
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And the rest of us are saying Mourinho was just another one of the failures that have been employed by the club. It seems like there are many who are trying to repaint Mourinho as having been a failure only due to things outside his control. Otherwise what's the point of this topic?

The OP himself said in the thread he hated his football and he might have been the wrong choice, so I see no one saying he was an angel who had no faults or deserved to stay at the end.we don't have to view him as fully shit either. Not everything is black and white, ridiculous.
 
The OP himself said in the thread he hated his football and he might have been the wrong choice, so I see no one saying he was an angel who had no faults or deserved to stay at the end.we don't have to view him as fully shit either. Not everything is black and white, ridiculous.
The fact that we're even using the word "might" so as to call into question his failure (which he definitively was) means that people are trying to repaint the man in a better light.

Was it choosing a culture of players > manager by simply binning the manager? No. If we're talking things in a not so black and white way, the proper manager should be backed over any of the players. If the manager has shown time and time again that he falls out with players (including the super successful Real Madrid side), I don't believe getting rid of that manager is an example of what the OP's assertion was. Even if the players are the same players that would throw their manager under the bus, it doesn't mean they did the same to Mourinho.

Look, it's fairly obvious all this recent Mourinho attention has been as a way for some people to try and paint Mourinho in a better light. We already exhausted discussion on Mourinho years ago, so I doubt we'll learn anything new about his time at United. The things people are saying he was right about, were discussed ages ago and the evidence backing it hasn't changed. All that's changed is people trying to highlight anything in his favor. If one objectively looked at the arguments against him, then this thread likely never gets started. Because any supposed "new evidence" can easily be used against him as it's currently being used to prop him up.
 
He wasn’t given the freedom to create the culture and standards he knew would be required to win
He hasn't created a "culture of winning" since his first stint at Chelsea which was like 17 years ago.
 
Transfers at this rotten club have always been far too influenced by commercial money experts. Free hand really does not apply to any of the managers post Fergie, and I'd argue especially Mourinho. Remember, Sanchez was thrust upon him.

What? He forced that transfer, broke the wage structure and decided to play him on the left while Martial was in decent form with RW spot remaining massive issue. Our season and most of the remaining dressing room harmony went to shit after that with Sanchez stinking up the place and Jose constantly playing him in starting 11.

Here is he mocking City reasoning that they pulled out because of wages and too much money (which was absolutely the right thing to do considering how much money Sanchez deal cost the club). Sometimes, like in poker, the best moves are the ones in which you don't play what it seems to be the strong hand.

But, speaking on Thursday, United boss Mourinho said: "I think Alexis reminds me a little bit of the history - I don't know, it's not a history, almost a metaphor - when you see the tree with amazing oranges at the top and cannot get there. You say: 'Oh, I got the lower ones because I don't like the ones at the top.'

"You like the ones at the top. They are so nice, so orange, so round, so full of juice but you cannot get there so you say: 'I don't want to go there' or 'I didn't like it, I prefer the other ones.' It reminds me of that story."

It was the deal in which the trust between him and board regarding transfers was most likely gone and led to disastrous following summer transfer window.
Tbf, the club, as usual, made it worse by signing Sanchez on those ridiculous wages and not sacking Jose at the end of that same season when they obviously didn't trust him anymore. Probably because they made another dumb decision with extending Jose contract at the time of Sanchez deal, so thought it will be too soon and cost us too much money.
 
Mourinho was a disaster for us. Whenever I'm feeling sad, I remember he isn't our manager and suddenly I feel better.

This is the problem on this forum, it is as if there are two opinions allowed:

1. Total disaster didn’t known what he was doing

2. Absolute genius who did amazing considering

If someone doesn’t agree 100% with one opinion then they are, apparently 100% of the other opinion and then given derogatory labels.
 
This is the problem on this forum, it is as if there are two opinions allowed:

1. Total disaster didn’t known what he was doing

2. Absolute genius who did amazing considering

If someone doesn’t agree 100% with one opinion then they are, apparently 100% of the other opinion and then given derogatory labels.
Agreed. Jose Mourinho as successful as he's been in his career, can only achieve that success through complete 100% backing from the club. The benefits of which are normally success in short and medium term but no real plan for the long term. So when he moves on, he leaves an aging squad with little real resale value.

Utd had to try the Mourinho experiment, it was a no brainer, however the infrastructure at the club wasnt there to support him 100% and is only now getting there to support ETH. No point getting Mourinho in if you dont follow and support him 100%. A halfway house of signings helps no-one.

Tactically Mourinho is up there with the best, he doesnt care about the aesthetics of football just result ala Simeone, Allegri etc.

I dont think he has had the same results since Rui Faria went his own way. Some manger do have a critical relationship with their no2, some dont. He was the former. Its affected him post Faria no doubt.

Despite how dire the football was, he was our most successful manager post fergie. Yes he has a MAJOR character flaw in calling out players in front of the media. Which is something i dont think you should ever do. Keep that stuff behind closed doors.

Im still glad he was appointed as Utd had to see what would happen with a manager such as him. We had good times and bad times but thats football.
 
The fact that we're even using the word "might" so as to call into question his failure (which he definitively was) means that people are trying to repaint the man in a better light.

Was it choosing a culture of players > manager by simply binning the manager? No. If we're talking things in a not so black and white way, the proper manager should be backed over any of the players. If the manager has shown time and time again that he falls out with players (including the super successful Real Madrid side), I don't believe getting rid of that manager is an example of what the OP's assertion was. Even if the players are the same players that would throw their manager under the bus, it doesn't mean they did the same to Mourinho.

Look, it's fairly obvious all this recent Mourinho attention has been as a way for some people to try and paint Mourinho in a better light. We already exhausted discussion on Mourinho years ago, so I doubt we'll learn anything new about his time at United. The things people are saying he was right about, were discussed ages ago and the evidence backing it hasn't changed. All that's changed is people trying to highlight anything in his favor. If one objectively looked at the arguments against him, then this thread likely never gets started. Because any supposed "new evidence" can easily be used against him as it's currently being used to prop him up.

Mourinho deserved to go when he was sacked. The problem is the players he fell out with should have also followed him out of the door. Letting them stay after he left gave the wrong message to everyone in the club. It's ridiculous that someone like Pogba stayed his full contract at the club while giving less than 50% of his abilities to the club every year.

We handled the situation pretty poorly by choosing a side over another while it was clear both were at fault.

The comparison between us and Chelsea and Madrid doesn't make sense because the players there won ton of trophies under and before Mourinho, they were winners, so when he fell out with them it's to be expected the next manager will also extract a lot of good results from them. Meanwhile United have been shit before Mourinho came regardless so choosing to keep the players whom Mourinho fell out with after he was sacked and thinking it was all due to him falling out with them was an illogical thinking.

The club and fans helped over inflating the egos of the players by continuously defending and giving excuses to them non stop whenever they are shit by throwing the blame all the time on the manager it was inevitable we would reach the current state at the club with players like Rashford and Pogba not giving a flying feck anymore whenever they step on the pitch. Why would they? Someone like Rashford is already treated as a super mega star, undroppable, got number 10, huge salary per week, it was bound to get into his head and it was inevitable what happened to his form would have happened.

These players did nothing for the club in comparison to what players like Hazard or Costa or Ivanovic did to Chelsea or what Iker, Ronaldo or Ramos did to Madrid when Mourinho fell out with them. It's United's of overrating these lot and giving them too much privilege that they don't deserve.

So while Mourinho deserved to be sacked because there was no way back from when he reached, the way Woodward handled the situation was pretty poorly and helped making the culture in the club even more rotten.
 
This is the problem on this forum, it is as if there are two opinions allowed:

1. Total disaster didn’t known what he was doing

2. Absolute genius who did amazing considering

If someone doesn’t agree 100% with one opinion then they are, apparently 100% of the other opinion and then given derogatory labels.

I see, you are a Moyes supporter, typical. Well, screw you and that mighty war horse you rode in on.

Am I doing this right? ;-)
 
The cultus of this guy is still going strong, and he seems to be getting better at creating it completely regardless of what happens on the pitch, judging by how feverish and rabid some of the new Mourinho chauvinists are. Any thread that might have something to do with Roma is polluted by his fanatics on a regular basis.

It's hard to tell how much of this is even deliberate and premeditated on his part, in a sense that he planned for it early in his career, or if it's just something that arose spontaneously out of the chaos and misery he normally inflicts on clubs.

Regardless, him being cantankerous and obnoxious, pointing fingers at everybody but himself, blaming the owners, the media, the referees, unfetteredly, is something that really feeds into the dissatisfaction of the fanbase (of which there is always some, and negative hyperbole is the rule of life). So him 'connecting' with this aspect of fan life, creates him plausible deniability which does wonders to protect his reputation.

That he was right, in some sort of visionary sense, beyond whatever individual points he might have been right on through his self serving rants, is a fatuous contention. It requires constant butchery of facts and mental gymnastics.

The most absurd aspect of these "he was right all along" narratives involves him supposedly being a prophet about Paul Pogba, and recognising what a virus he is. This in complete denial of the fact that Mourinho was the one who signed this virus in the first place, inducing the club to spend a transfer record on the said player. This in addition to signing countless other players (some discovered by Mourinho's own network) who turned out to be complete dross. For the longest time, not signing Harry Maguire (initially) was also part of the he was always right narrative, that is before Maguire became the universally despised figure that he now is.

On the back of the club not signing this guy because they had reservations about the price and quality (that hindsight has cast a kindly light on); Mourinho justified himself in deliberately sabotaging the club by playing midfielders at centre back. How this disgraceful thing is forgotten, and how lip service continues to be paid to this narcissistic asshole, is forever beyond me.
 
What culture exactly? Sign old players and players who are looking for last big contract and don't give a shit?

You are just making up things. Jose was given free hand, that's why so many players were sold.
Yeah? I don’t think so. And I’ve said why.
 
He hasn't created a "culture of winning" since his first stint at Chelsea which was like 17 years ago.
He has won a lot of trophies since then including a couple for us, plus the champions league and Serie A.

I don’t really like him but I don’t see the point of pretending the club didn’t hang him out to dry. The owners and the board had their reasons and it’s up to them what they want to do but Jose was mainly right about the shit players we had (or at least their shit attitude) and the shit way the club was being run.
 
Was any manager ever backed in last 10-20 years? Please name them.
Gosh that sounds like a lot of effort.

Like I said, being backed is not “one thing” it is holistic. You think he was backed, I don’t. I would go so far as to say the club brought the current situation on themselves by interfering on football issues and either being indecisive or lacking the courage of their convictions. Show me someone who think this club has been well run and I’ll show you an idiot.
 
Gosh that sounds like a lot of effort.

Like I said, being backed is not “one thing” it is holistic. You think he was backed, I don’t. I would go so far as to say the club brought the current situation on themselves by interfering on football issues and either being indecisive or lacking the courage of their convictions. Show me someone who think this club has been well run and I’ll show you an idiot.

Isn't part of the mismanagement hiring and allowing Mourinho to spend a fortune on players that he had no intention to manage because he thought that he could moan his way into purchasing their replacements?
 
Isn't part of the mismanagement hiring and allowing Mourinho to spend a fortune on players that he had no intention to manage because he thought that he could moan his way into purchasing their replacements?
The hiring probably was a mistake. God knows we’ve made a few.

If you sign a player (or players) and they turn out to be a problem, isn’t it better to replace them while you can still get a fee for them? Also, I think some of the players Jose wanted to replace were already here when he came. The other thing to ask is whether Jose was actually “spending” the money or the clever clogs behind the scenes were choosing the incoming players. The latter is not unusual and not wrong but I don’t think we had competent people in the relevant roles.
 
Gosh that sounds like a lot of effort.

Like I said, being backed is not “one thing” it is holistic. You think he was backed, I don’t. I would go so far as to say the club brought the current situation on themselves by interfering on football issues and either being indecisive or lacking the courage of their convictions. Show me someone who think this club has been well run and I’ll show you an idiot.

It's not lot of effort. It shouldn't be hard to name 2-3 managers.

Your point is we didn't sell couple of players so he wasn't backed. That's just ridiculous.
 
It's not lot of effort. It shouldn't be hard to name 2-3 managers.

Your point is we didn't sell couple of players so he wasn't backed. That's just ridiculous.
I’m slowing catching on that you don’t agree with me but I’ve managed not to insult your opinion. But let’s say I don’t find any of your arguments persuasive. At all.
 
I’m slowing catching on that you don’t agree with me but I’ve managed not to insult your opinion. But let’s say I don’t find any of your arguments persuasive. At all.

Oh sorry, is saying "that's ridiculous" insulting your argument? Looks like we disagree on lot of things then.

Agree to disagree then, good day.
 
Oh sorry, is saying "that's ridiculous" insulting your argument? Looks like we disagree on lot of things then.

Agree to disagree then, good day.
Yeah I wasn’t very upset, I’m starting to sound like Jose here.

Probably we do agree that Jose was not right for us and probably both of us were happy when he was sacked. So that’s something.

A good day to you too.
 
The hiring probably was a mistake. God knows we’ve made a few.

If you sign a player (or players) and they turn out to be a problem, isn’t it better to replace them while you can still get a fee for them? Also, I think some of the players Jose wanted to replace were already here when he came. The other thing to ask is whether Jose was actually “spending” the money or the clever clogs behind the scenes were choosing the incoming players. The latter is not unusual and not wrong but I don’t think we had competent people in the relevant roles.

When all players are a problem but weren't for other clubs or outside of the club, is the problem the different players with different backgrounds or the one thing that link them?

And no we are not going to start that BS about players not being his signings.
 
When all players are a problem but weren't for other clubs or outside of the club, is the problem the different players with different backgrounds or the one thing that link them?

And no we are not going to start that BS about players not being his signings.
Yeah it might have been his fault.
 
Yeah it might have been his fault.

Partially. The club was also at fault for bringing a manager that didn't fit with the team and in this case also a manager that was on the decline. It wouldn't be fair to blame him entirely when the club consistently failed to judge managers and also players.
My only issue is when people make any sort of excuses for Mourinho when it barely fit with reality. Mourinho has been backed by the club, they spent a fortune on players that he wanted, players that he wanted when he was at Chelsea and players that he worked with.

It's also extremely important to keep in mind that no Football club guarantee or engage himself in a deal with a manager where said manager gets literally everything he wants, whenever he wants. The deal is that the club goes as far as it's reasonable to go while the manager does everything to coach and manage the team to the best of his abilities in all circumstances. Can we say that Mourinho held his end of the bargain?
 
When all players are a problem but weren't for other clubs or outside of the club, is the problem the different players with different backgrounds or the one thing that link them?

And no we are not going to start that BS about players not being his signings.

Doesn't that apply to pretty much all signings made post Fergie? The majority of the signings in the last 9 years have been considered a failure despite hiring 3 different managers. When 3 different managers have the majority of their signings being a failure, then the only thing linking them together is actually the club itself.
 
Doesn't that apply to pretty much all signings made post Fergie? The majority of the signings in the last 9 years have been considered a failure despite hiring 3 different managers. When 3 different managers have the majority of their signings being a failure, then the only thing linking them together is actually the club itself.
The other link is none of them being good enough managers any more.
 
Yeah so? That affects the actual performance on the pitch or ability to coach players, not scouting good players in the market.
Disagree. Nearly every player we sign looks worse for us than their previous club or their national team. It’s very rare we sign a player and we’re all gutted because we think they’re shite. Even players like Darmian were highly rated prior to us signing him, let alone the obvious talents such as Martial, Depay, Shaw etc.
 
He was right about pogba. Thats for sure.

You also have to then factor in what a good job Ole did for a few years to actually make this team into a respectable outfit (until the meltdown this season which is inevitable given the way these lot down tools).

Im just glad we are finally getting rid of alot of them and have a chance to start anew. Not just playing staff, but also backroom staff and of course the rotten shit at the top.