Of course Jose was right. He just did it in his classic Mourinho way, causing to much trouble on the way.
So Jose Was Right?
- Thread starter 432JuanMata
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Watching from afar here in OZ at what point does the club except the need to have a total rebuild, this playing group is basically toxic, has been over the course of recent managers.
Seriously, the new manager needs to be brave and give opportunities to some of the younger academy players, they could just be a breath of fresh air and probably couldn’t perform any worse.
Aside from the academy players the first thing he needs to do is bring in Eric Bailley, yes he has been injury prone, but his attributes injury free make him our best option in the centre of defence. Silly as it sounds maybe pair Eric and Phil Jones, they seriously couldn’t be any worse.
Seriously, the new manager needs to be brave and give opportunities to some of the younger academy players, they could just be a breath of fresh air and probably couldn’t perform any worse.
Aside from the academy players the first thing he needs to do is bring in Eric Bailley, yes he has been injury prone, but his attributes injury free make him our best option in the centre of defence. Silly as it sounds maybe pair Eric and Phil Jones, they seriously couldn’t be any worse.
Shit yeah, it's back!
Or to put it another way: he absolutely understood the problem, but had the wrong solution.
He wasn't right but the way the high echelons conducted themselves since his sacking, putting all the club's struggles and failures on him and giving the players a manager who would never question their ability, their attitude and application, make him look like some weird prophet in hindsight.
The same seems to be happening with Rangnick. The results and the performances on the pitch didn't exactly help his cause and, once he realized there's no way to fix things, he went into self-survival mode. But the way the club was quick to show him the door after his comments about the squad's quality and the club's structure, while everyone at this club seems to get a bazillion "second chances" to prove himself, has turn RR into a righteous vigilante in the eyes of some.
You can't blame the fans, though. This is the state of our squad after three and a half years of reinstalling the famous "United DNA" in the club. Three and a half years during which every single opposition fan was laughing at our attempt to create our own manager, wishing we continued spending fortunes on the likes of Maguire and AWB and half a million p/w on Rashy and Tony because... Fergie trusted the youth, right? Give it a few more years and this lot will prove every keyboard warrior on the internet right. And no, i'm not being sarcastic.
The same seems to be happening with Rangnick. The results and the performances on the pitch didn't exactly help his cause and, once he realized there's no way to fix things, he went into self-survival mode. But the way the club was quick to show him the door after his comments about the squad's quality and the club's structure, while everyone at this club seems to get a bazillion "second chances" to prove himself, has turn RR into a righteous vigilante in the eyes of some.
You can't blame the fans, though. This is the state of our squad after three and a half years of reinstalling the famous "United DNA" in the club. Three and a half years during which every single opposition fan was laughing at our attempt to create our own manager, wishing we continued spending fortunes on the likes of Maguire and AWB and half a million p/w on Rashy and Tony because... Fergie trusted the youth, right? Give it a few more years and this lot will prove every keyboard warrior on the internet right. And no, i'm not being sarcastic.
Yes he was very good at saying everything that was wrong with players. He just wasn’t very good at finding the best solution. Most of his attempted solutions were tumescent.
I could go through the Utd team back then and now and identify lots of flaws and be correct. It wouldn’t mean I’d make a good manager. If Jose was still here, we’d still be in a mess.
Our best manager post Fergie thus far.
The anti-Mourinho brigade especially those fans who sided with players like Pogba and Glazers favourite Martial over him deserve these barren years.
I've said it before when all the best the board could muster was Fred, Dalot and Lee Grant that summer transfer window in 2018 he should've just resigned...
The anti-Mourinho brigade especially those fans who sided with players like Pogba and Glazers favourite Martial over him deserve these barren years.
I've said it before when all the best the board could muster was Fred, Dalot and Lee Grant that summer transfer window in 2018 he should've just resigned...
In fairness, he also had the human microphone. It's been all downhill since those at the back couldn't just punt it to the mop.
Even though I despise the guy, looking back he was right to try and bring in some more senior experienced players. At the time I thought it was all about him trying to gain instant but fleeting success, now I wonder if he just thought the senior bunch currently at the club are a bunch of cowards.
Mourinho signed Dalot, Bailly, Lindelof Fred, Pogba, Matic, Mikhitaryan Sanchez , Zlatan and Lukaku. That’s a completely new team and you don’t get to complain after signing so many players in 2yrs.
Actually the only person who has every right to complain is Ralph .
Actually the only person who has every right to complain is Ralph .
I don’t know if it’s the seniors but soon after he got sacked, mourinho was doing some punditry and he told a story of how a player came to him and explained that he did not want to receive criticism in front of the rest of the squad, and that it needed to be done in private.
This is absolute loser mentality and it sounded like Mourinho had no power to get rid of such players. I sincerely hope that is changing now with Ten Hag otherwise we’re just gonna get worse and worse.
Yes, yes he was. So was LVG.
He was right in significant part, despite being here just to push for trophies immediately like always. 3/4 year project maximum, then typical goodbye and on to the next project.
Lindelof & Bailly turned out to be underwhelming choice to build defense on. Lukaku & Sanchez was a bit disastrous overhaul. Zlatan was his key signing and a player with almost Fergie type mentality. Didn't last long, as almost everything was based on short period thinking, sadly.
Great coach, but simply didn't had patience with the board (hard to blame him) and players that needed booting. It wasn't ruthless Jose like many supporters desired.
Lindelof & Bailly turned out to be underwhelming choice to build defense on. Lukaku & Sanchez was a bit disastrous overhaul. Zlatan was his key signing and a player with almost Fergie type mentality. Didn't last long, as almost everything was based on short period thinking, sadly.
Great coach, but simply didn't had patience with the board (hard to blame him) and players that needed booting. It wasn't ruthless Jose like many supporters desired.
yeah it was that window that done it for me too, I’ve taken a big step back since then, and it just proved beyond all doubt that top 4 the parasites and happy and have no desire to push on,
the problem with Jose is some people hate him so much they can’t bare to say he was right, if he was given full control to sell and buy who he wanted we’d be in a much better spot now, comments above like “if he was here now we’d still be a mess” compared to now? Really like?
the fans who backed ole blindly are a big part of why we are where we are, stevie wonder could see how far back he was sending us.
Jose was the wrong choice at the wrong time. If he had come in after Fergie things would have been different. He had fighters in the team and he has won the CL twice and the PL and whatever there is to win. The players would have respected him.
Most of the fault lies with the board for not backing him fully. Re the Maguire scenario I think he would have been good in a Jose team. For sure Jose is not going to make him the Captain as he walked thru the door.
Most of the fault lies with the board for not backing him fully. Re the Maguire scenario I think he would have been good in a Jose team. For sure Jose is not going to make him the Captain as he walked thru the door.
Spot on
Was just recently thinking about this. He out of all understood what sort of unit he needed to build to get this club back on track. Something rather unlikely accruable in this generation.
In actual fact it's also the realisation of this that has contributed to putting me off football overall along with our own insidious uselessness.
We would have been better off giving Jose exactly what he wanted over the course of 5 years. Basically, just like with sir Alex, brutally jettisoning players at any point they become deemed unworthy.
Yet because we can't shift anyone anywhere, and because the culture is too player oriented, that was never going to be doable.
But if we had taken that nuclear route we would be guaranteed a better standing now than we have. I'd happily reverse the last few years and experience the explosives of Jose on the basis that we outwardly backed him saying that we implicitly trust his judgement. That would have given him the confidence to not obviously implode putting him in a position of weakness.
I wouldn't have said this at the time, but in hindsight this is my view.
In actual fact it's also the realisation of this that has contributed to putting me off football overall along with our own insidious uselessness.
We would have been better off giving Jose exactly what he wanted over the course of 5 years. Basically, just like with sir Alex, brutally jettisoning players at any point they become deemed unworthy.
Yet because we can't shift anyone anywhere, and because the culture is too player oriented, that was never going to be doable.
But if we had taken that nuclear route we would be guaranteed a better standing now than we have. I'd happily reverse the last few years and experience the explosives of Jose on the basis that we outwardly backed him saying that we implicitly trust his judgement. That would have given him the confidence to not obviously implode putting him in a position of weakness.
I wouldn't have said this at the time, but in hindsight this is my view.
This is such a painful thread to open up every few days. The root of our problems today go back to the decision to hire Jose. Yes, the Glazers are ultimately responsible but the Glazers hired a manager in Jose who brought us players with the sole intent of immediate success rather than building a sustainable foundation. Yes of course we have to point the decision to hire Ole as an even worse decision by the Glazers but Jose inherited a squad that needed work but had good character and poisoned the squad. Ole's happy face was in large part intended as antidote t the poison but it wasn't enough. And here we are now, a poisoned club. Thanks, Jose.
Really?
Let's see.
Young: Pogba, Lindelof, Bailly, Dalot
Mid age: Mkhitaryan, Lukaku, Fred
Old: Zlatan, Matic, Sanchez
So not the case at all.Only the last 3 weren't supposed to last for a long time and even then Zlatan was intrumental in the 1st year and Matic in the 2nd.
In any case I don't think Mourinho (or any manager since Fergie) bought most of the players. 1 or 2 players yes but I don't think they had that much control.
So Jose now inherited a squad with good "character" and destroyed it
Jose was brought to bring immediate success, everybody knew how Jose works and to some extent, he did what he could. Won 2 minor trophies, managed to finish second in the league, but needed more money to spend.
At our best I think the best times after Fergie were with Jose, the only time we looked we can win any game. It wasn't pretty but it was possible.
His transfers weren't great, but to blame him for what is happening now is complete bollocks. First of all few of his players are still here.
I really think that if he was backed in the transfer market then, we could at least maintain a decent form and not be where we are now, bottom of the table, few hopes, a fiasco. Maybe we couldn't win the league with Jose at the wheel but I'm 100% sure we won't win it without him, at least not in the foreseeable future.
I think Conte would fail for the same reasons far too outspoken at times. Wouldn’t accept certain things and try and make do. In the case of Mou he threw everyone under the bus during a period I think was perfectly set up for him to succeed with a more us vs the world approach. Odd how he handled the job for me.
More than a few of Jose's buys are still here:
Fred -- a Jose buy
Bailly -- a Jose buy
Lindelof -- a Jose buy
McTominay -- not purchased but he certainly can thank Jose for making his career possible
Ole who bought Maguire but Jose desperately wanted him, which no doubt contributed to us eventually buying him.
And then we have other players who Jose bought but are now gone:
Lukaku -- unfit for purpose, colossal waste of cash
Pogba -- headcase, colossal waste of cash
Sanchez -- no words can describe how much of a disaster that was
Ibra -- brilliant, no complaints there other than he was a quick fix and not a foundation for future success
In the hierarchy of responsibility the Glazers are clearly primarily responsible for our humiliation across the globe. They brought in bankers to run a football club, which we've discussed here at length over the years. Then I lay responsibility at the feet of Sir Alex, who insisted on Moyes and we know all about that and has never said a word about the Glazers publicly. Woodward, because of his incompetence at anything other than securing sponsorship deals. Then and only then would I go to Jose, who only cared about his reputation (a quick trophy and nothing more) and not the long-term health of the club and then when things didn't break his way -- he didn't get Maguire -- he poisoned the squad. Not many players are left from the squad he had but there are more than a few -- De Gea, Shaw and Jones also come to mind and I'm probably missing a few others.
Seconded.
I always said it was a missed opportunity, for both him and United. And that was not 20/20 hindsight.
I do not want to defend Jose, I'm not even a fan of him, but what is happening now it has nothing to do with him. The years have past and the decisions from the board and the other 3 managers that followed are more important and impactful of what is currently happening.
Only Fred and Lindelof are still here and play a part in the current mess we are in.
I really don't care about the fact Jose did not plan long term, he couldn't of done it as he never did it in the past and we assumed that when we brought him in. Ole had a long term plan, right? And I think he is more to blame than Jose and many of his transfers are still here. Moyes also had a long term plan and he didn't even manage to start it and was rightly gone.
Hiring a manager that has a long term plan does not bring success, the execution of the plan is the most important aspect. It does not matter how well you manage to plan if you cannot succeed in implementing it.
The only thing we can do at this point is to hire football people in charge of the club and let them do what they can.
He played his part, most of what he did was short term and not for the greater good of United. We signed Matic when we were heavily linked with Fabinho. Fabinho goes on to anchor CL and PL title wins whilst Matic is out of the door. We signed Sanchez when we badly needed a right winger and until Greenwood came in the scene we had none. As a consequence of us signing Sanchez, City went and signed Mahrez, a right winger.
Jose was obviously right about a lot of things, doesn't necessarily mean he was capable of fixing those things without replacing more than half the squad with players like Perisic, who is a quality player, but only a short term fix.
Having said that, how long can we continue to sack managers because the players stopped playing for them? Moyes wasn't the right man, neither was Jose. LvG did finish outside top 4 but the players were still playing for him, we could've given him more time. Ole was out of his depth, the players liked him too, probably because he was a push over and wasn't able to demand any respect from the players.
We either have a manager who fails to meet the board's targets, or someone who the players stop playing for.
At some point we're going to have to either make bold decisions with asking players to feck off or lower the targets, the question is, do we have a manager that deserves any of these luxuries or risks, remains to be seen.
Having said that, how long can we continue to sack managers because the players stopped playing for them? Moyes wasn't the right man, neither was Jose. LvG did finish outside top 4 but the players were still playing for him, we could've given him more time. Ole was out of his depth, the players liked him too, probably because he was a push over and wasn't able to demand any respect from the players.
We either have a manager who fails to meet the board's targets, or someone who the players stop playing for.
At some point we're going to have to either make bold decisions with asking players to feck off or lower the targets, the question is, do we have a manager that deserves any of these luxuries or risks, remains to be seen.
This.
Jose was a typical Manchester United recruitment. Done more on his name rather than because he was the very best candidate to replace LvG.
And it all started off well.
2nd place with 81 points which was a significant total.
But the football was not what United supporters wanted.
But he was not satisfied with 2nd place.
He wanted to win the PL and maybe CL and identified the players he wanted to do that. And at the same time identified the players he did not want.
The rest is history. And like anything in history, we make up our own minds.
I tend to disagree with the Matic transfer.
First of all Matic was a good signing, made an impact from the start and was probably our most solid midfielder that we had since Carrick. He was getting older and had injuries but was better than the likes of Fred, Perreira, Mct, Fellaini.
Secondly I agree with the fact that Fabinho would have been a better deal but the fact that he won PL and CL does not have any connection with his possible transfer at us. At Man Utd he wouldn't have won any of those surely.
Mahrez would of been better than Sanchez, sure, but how many players would have been better than what we have right now?
Idk if their is another thread on him but this video was awesome to see.
I don’t think their has ever been a manager in history to come to the EPL and clean house the way he did. Especially in such a competir time in the league.
To concede only 15 goals in the whole season is absolutely bonkers.
from 2002-2012 which I would say was his prime as a coach, I don’t think any other manager ever dominated as much as him in that time frame.
- 3x European champion
- 7x league champion
- 10x domestic cups
- various deep runs in the CL
and if I recall correctly he went 10 years without losing a home game. That’s next level good.
As someone wrote a bit earlier in the thread, we may never know the whole story. Part of the problem was SAF and old-school ideas, which Moyes tried to build on. There was at that point a gap - players knew there were different approaches etc while basically the coaching was at a Neanderthal G Souness level.
At that stage Rio was a rebel in a sense, and other senior pros. They oversaw the demolition of Moyes and essentially laughed him out of the stadium.
Then came LVG; it’s easy to see a different gap there; him tapping his wristwatch at Di Maria, etc. The gap was not filled. Jose found cliques, entitlement, basically a group of entitled schoolboys. So now we have two guys, Ragnick and Ten Hag, asking this group to self-sacrifice, to press, to surrender to being an actual disciplined team? Good luck.
It’s going to be a long road. At the end, if it is ever reached, nothing we see now will be recognisable, players. Structure. Ownership. Stadium, Staff. Might still call itself MUFC. Maybe it will even have reinstated the words ‘football club’ on the badge.
No doubt that’s impressive but over a 20 year period, Fergie won 13 premier titles, and in 4 of the 5 times we came second, it was by a single point. That’s domination.
Excellent post. Nail. On. Head.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Of course Jose was right about some players, but in the bigger picture of things - Jose failed. His last season after the transfer window where he didn't get what he asked for was a disaster. Managers don't always get what they need, he turned into toxic asshole.
Ole gets accused of setting us back years, mostly because of the players he signed.
Jose signed:
Lukaku
Matic
Fred
Dalot
Pogba
Bailly
Alexis
Brought McTominay into the first team. Sold the best defender we have had in the last 7 years or so (Daley Blind) and threw a fit when he couldn't sign Maguire.
Saying he was right about the problems is a bit pointless when he ultimately contributed more to them than anyone not named Glazer or Woodward.
Jose signed:
Lukaku
Matic
Fred
Dalot
Pogba
Bailly
Alexis
Brought McTominay into the first team. Sold the best defender we have had in the last 7 years or so (Daley Blind) and threw a fit when he couldn't sign Maguire.
Saying he was right about the problems is a bit pointless when he ultimately contributed more to them than anyone not named Glazer or Woodward.
To be fair that time in the Premier League deserves the context of Chelsea spending 3x4 times their closest competitors. It’s the most ‘buying the league’ in history, not even City bought with as reckless abandon as Chelsea in those few years. They were spending 150-200m at a time where 50m was considered a very expensive summer.
Almost all these points I discussed in the last few pages but the bold part ? Really ? Scott would have been a great squad player if used correctly. The problem was the next managers making him a main first option starting player week in week out. If he had been used as a bench option, some one who comes in specific games for specific roles, or when we need to rotate in a squad, he would have been a great addition to the team. No one told Ole to make him a permanent starter.
I disagree that he would be a good squad option.
Either way that is a drop in the ocean of the overall point.
The rest of your post I already covered previously so I see no point discussing them again. I was just replying on the new point.
My goodness I forgot how bad that window was