Smashley Young

moses said:
No they are not.

Young beat him, that was the defenders only 'crime'. Forget analysing Young's movements, look at the defender. He stands up, is beaten and he does feck all.
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He beat him for sure but the defender dangled his leg out, and stood on Young's foot. The angle above isn't the best but from otehr angles Young was clearly impeded.

And strikers have been going down in similar situation for decades, its just that Young is over stimulating.
 
Sally Cinnamon said:
Do you think it was a penalty moses?
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Not when seen from behind, but it's part of the game. Refs will see Young as a diver now, and he'll have to work hard for anything in future. I remember Ronaldo getting booked a few times when he should have had a pen, but he, like Young is doing, made his own bed.
 
mjs020294 said:
He beat him for sure but the defender dangled his leg out, and stood on Young's foot. The angle above isn't the best but from otehr angles Young was clearly impeded.

And strikers have been going down in similar situation for decades, its just that Young is over stimulating.
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Dangled his leg? There was no unnatural movement.

I'm not saying strikers don't dive but you said they are trained to do that from an early age, whch is bollox.
 
Ash_G said:
That's just football in general though. If someone dives on your team and you get the decision, it's contact or they didn't see. If it goes against you it's a dive or soft etc. Same with hard tackles, bad decisions etc. Football is full of hypocrites both on and off the field.
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To some extent. Of course that happens with dubious decisions. Thing is, Young's diving isnt dubious and shouldnt even be debatable. Its outright cheating, and personally I dont want United players doing it. Those who are OK with it can mean whatever, but then to come out and act all pissed off and outraged when Suarez dives is just pathetic hypocrisy.
 
Sewelly The Geordie said:
Taylor just said what most of the country thinks right now. Dragging your club through the mud with antics like that.

It's just completely unnecessary.
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You're living on a different planet, one where apparently only one club has players that dive. The reality is at least one player on every single team will dive in any given match, these days. So away with your laughable "dragging your club through the mud" nonsense. :lol:
 
Brosstan said:
To some extent. Of course that happens with dubious decisions. Thing is, Young's diving isnt dubious and shouldnt even be debatable. Its outright cheating, and personally I dont want United players doing it. Those who are OK with it can mean whatever, but then to come out and act all pissed off and outraged when Suarez dives is just pathetic hypocrisy.
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He doesnt go down before contact is made = not a dive.

Yes he may of put more of a fall on once the contact was made, but its the only bloody way you get decisions these days.

100% pen in my eyes, no doubt about it.
 
Adam-Utd said:
He doesnt go down before contact is made = not a dive.

Yes he may of put more of a fall on once the contact was made, but its the only bloody way you get decisions these days.

100% pen in my eyes, no doubt about it.
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So every time players make contact one is justified in throwing himself to the floor?
 
Thought it was a penalty today the defender got caught with a poor attempt at defending contact was made and Young went down. Hardly like Pires against Portsmouth I'm surprised at the reaction today def a penalty imho.
 
Gazza said:
You're living on a different planet, one where apparently only one club has players that dive. The reality is at least one player on every single team will dive in any given match, these days. So away with your laughable "dragging your club through the mud" nonsense. :lol:
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More than one. The diving is not the issue, just the double standards and media overload that have turned football into a bitchfest.
 
The problem is it's only really seen as cheating and frowned upon when it is so over the top. If it's done in the right way, it's seen as pretty savvy by many, even going unnoticed or being hailed as 'using his experience'. It's a fine line, and one should be careful when declaring an outright stance on ALL diving be it one way or the other. 'Diving' is much more widespread than the outrageous occasions we saw today with Young or other times this season with players such as Bale.
 
Adam-Utd said:
He doesnt go down before contact is made = not a dive.

Yes he may of put more of a fall on once the contact was made, but its the only bloody way you get decisions these days.

100% pen in my eyes, no doubt about it.
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Its a crystal clear dive. Who the hell falls like that?

If that is a 100% pen in your eyes, then you are blind or stupid, possibly both.
 
moses said:
So every time players make contact one is justified in throwing himself to the floor?
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YES!

Chances of a goal from the spot are far higher than from open play. If someone makes illegal contact in the area you go down and take the penalty.
 
Brosstan said:
Your examples have nothing in common with when a player dives for a penalty. Theres no deliberate conning of the referees in your examples.
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Ok fine. When Ribery played to get Rafael a second yellow card in the Champions League quarter final second leg at Old Trafford in 2010 did my outrage make a blind bit of difference? Has Ribery since stopped diving? Has the lesson gone out throughout the Bayern team that going down easily to get other players sent off or to win free kicks and penalties is a bad thing? If so I dont think either he or Robben have gotten the message.

All this outrage, all this bluster...look teams have dived against us lots in the past and they will keep doing it and from my point of view if we're gonna be on the end of it then all's fair. As I said before Young made contact, he made sure he made contact yes, but he made contact. Nowadays if there's contact and you stay up you don't get anything so there's a logic in falling down. It wasn't clear Young gets to the ball if he avoids the Villa defender so he made sure he made contact with him and let the ref make the call. Is it less of a penalty cos he made sure he made contact? If that's the case as has been pointed out we should've lost 3-2 to Chelsea.

In both cases the player had the option to divert his run but if he does that there's no chance that he'll get to the ball cos he has to run in a curve instead of a straight line. There are people out there who will argue that the intent to be an obstruction in that way is worth a penalty (remember Gerrard vs Sheffield United a few years back?) Virtually no penalties are clear cut these days and a lot of them are given for little more than nothing. At the end of the day Young just played the game the way its played in the 21st century. He didn't award himself a penalty the referee did that. Its done. Get over it.
 
Brosstan said:
To some extent. Of course that happens with dubious decisions. Thing is, Young's diving isnt dubious and shouldnt even be debatable. Its outright cheating, and personally I dont want United players doing it. Those who are OK with it can mean whatever, but then to come out and act all pissed off and outraged when Suarez dives is just pathetic hypocrisy.
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I agree with you mate, I was just saying that in general the game has a lot of hypocrites on a variety of issues. Thing with diving though is it happens all the time. Youngs is theatrical but him going down easy is exactly the same as defenders and goalies who also go down at the slightest touch,just much more theatrical. I wish it didn't happen either but I don't think one team can make a stance against it, it's so widespread that you'd just end up screwing yourself over. It would have to come from FIFA/FA.

Neville did a good article recently where he pretty much said that people shouldn't be so surprised when people go down, which is true sadly. In Young's case though I think he makes his dives too theatrical. If you look at someone like Davies who goes down very easy, the difference is that he's much less ott about it, which is what I reckon really annoys people when they see the likes of Young/Suarez dropping so easy. But I agree it's stupid when people get so angry when someone dives against them yet will defend the same thing from their side all day.
 
moses said:
More than one. The diving is not the issue, just the double standards and media overload that have turned football into a bitchfest.
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Agreed. Frankly, if football sees it as a problem it will sort it out, if we're not capable of getting rid of it we should shut the feck up about it. I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day the way this culture of controversy repeats itself every season.
 
Okay, so now people are convincing themselves that not only was it a penalty, it wasn't a dive from Young?

That's rubbish. I'm embarassed by Young, again. Stop going down you tool. Cheat.
 
moses said:
So every time players make contact one is justified in throwing himself to the floor?
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No, for example Berbatov against Liverpool last year in the cup, technically there was the slightest touch of contact but it was never a penalty, it was a ridiculous dive.

Today was a pen though. Young didn't 'initiate the contact', he flicked the ball past the defender but his momentum carried him on towards the defender before he could turn and there was enough contact to knock him off balance. He made a bit of a meal of the over theatrical fall though which is why I think he's getting so much stick.

Admittedly a bit harsh on Clark but it was a penalty.

Completely agree with you about Young's reputation now too, he's at it too often.
 
One thing I will say is that this "problem" in football isn't really due to players like Young. It's refs not giving fouls when players stay on their feet. See Shane Long yesterday.
 
moses said:
So every time players make contact one is justified in throwing himself to the floor?
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mjs020294 said:
YES!
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Sorry but no. It's not a non contact sport. I sometimes think people have never played the game. I used to arrive home black and blue and maybe not have fouled or been fouled. From jumpers for goalposts to gays for fans. In a few short decades.
 
Gazza said:
Agreed. Frankly, if football sees it as a problem it will sort it out, if we're not capable of getting rid of it we should shut the feck up about it. I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day the way this culture of controversy repeats itself every season.
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Let's all just shut up about racism in football, while we're at it. We aren't capable of getting rid of it, after all.
 
Brosstan said:
Its a crystal clear dive. Who the hell falls like that?

If that is a 100% pen in your eyes, then you are blind or stupid, possibly both.
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A dive occurs when there is no contact. The defender stood on Young's foot and impeded him. Young over simulated the follow through but it was a penalty.
 
Sally Cinnamon said:
No, for example Berbatov against Liverpool last year in the cup, technically there was the slightest touch of contact but it was never a penalty, it was a ridiculous dive.

Today was a pen though. Young didn't 'initiate the contact', he flicked the ball past the defender but his momentum carried him on towards the defender before he could turn and there was enough contact to knock him off balance.

Admittedly a bit harsh on Clark but it was a penalty.

Completely agree with you about Young's reputation now too, he's at it too often.
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It doesn't matter who initiated it. Defenders have to be allowed attempt to tackle. Young played the ball to the right, beating the defender, and had he followed it there wouldn't have been contact.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
Let's all just shut up about racism in football, while we're at it. We aren't capable of getting rid of it, after all.
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I think its fair to say a criminal offence is not quite of the same order as gamesmanship.
 
moses said:
Sorry but no. It's not a non contact sport. I sometimes think people have never played the game. I used to arrive home black and blue and maybe not have fouled or been fouled. From jumpers for goalposts to gays for fans. In a few short decades.
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Actually you saw a lot more strikers going down after contact years ago. Ian Rush was the master at nudging a ball around a defender and going to ground at the slightest of touches. There is more TV scrutiny now but at the end of the day if a striker feels illegal contact in the area he should go down.

And what makes you think you have an exclusive on playing the game?
 
moses said:
Sorry but no. It's not a non contact sport. I sometimes think people have never played the game. I used to arrive home black and blue and maybe not have fouled or been fouled. From jumpers for goalposts to gays for fans. In a few short decades.
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Yeah it's getting silly what people will say will make you go down now. It's one thing saying that it's professional play in the modern game, but people actually saying it would bring people down is ott. Just look at the goal Giggs scored against arsenal, he got kicked, bumped into etc whilst at high speed and was fine. Players could stay up unhindered if they wanted, but they would rather buy the pen/foul. That's fine but people shouldn't try and claim they've done anything else but buy the decision.
 
mjs020294 said:
A dive occurs when there is no contact. The defender stood on Young's foot and impeded him. Young over simulated the follow through but it was a penalty.
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thats how I saw it.

I wish Young had tried to play on though. if he stumbled because of the trip, there would be no reaction...but then the ref may not have given it.

think that was the reason behind the 'exaggeration'
 
#07 said:
I think its fair to say a criminal offence is not quite of the same order as gamesmanship.
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Not the point. He said if we aren't capable of getting rid of something, we should just shut up about it. Somewhat short sighted, to say the least.
 
mjs020294 said:
Actually you saw a lot more strikers going down after contact years ago. Ian Rush was the master at nudging a ball around a defender and going to ground at the slightest of touches. There is more TV scrutiny now but at the end of the day if a striker feels illegal contact in the area he should go down.

And what makes you think you have an exclusive on playing the game?
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On the fist bit I disagree 100% and on the second bit; nothing, I was just pointing out that it's not a non contact sport.
 
moses said:
More than one. The diving is not the issue, just the double standards and media overload that have turned football into a bitchfest.
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Imo, the issue is the unwillingness of football authorities to punish cheating on the field of play.

A player can lose his livelihood for up to 2 years for taking a recreational drug which has nothing whatever to do with football, but he's caught on camera cheating on the pitch and nothing can be done! It's one of many imbecilities of the game.

Take Young before a disciplinary tribunal, show the recording in evidence, and suspend him for ten games. The next player tempted to throw himself to the ground will think twice.

Edit: Of course the abysmal standard of refereeing would also have to be addressed. Some diving arises because refs are gutless and tend to duck decisions like giving penalties. Players have to force the ref to award the foul, because if they stay on their feet he'll use that as an excuse not to give it.
 
Ash_G said:
Yeah it's getting silly what people will say will make you go down now. It's one thing saying that it's professional play in the modern game, but people actually saying it would bring people down is ott. Just look at the goal Giggs scored against arsenal, he got kicked, bumped into etc whilst at high speed and was fine. Players could stay up unhindered if they wanted, but they would rather buy the pen/foul. That's fine but people shouldn't try and claim they've done anything else but buy the decision.
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Spot on.
 
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