Look we all agree this type of thing (diving) shouldnt be tolerated. Its best if we are able to stamp it out of our game. Young has been warned before and i fully expect better from such a professional.
Smashley Young
- Thread starter Red Defence
- Start date
But we're getting very little production from that position and have been for the past year or so. Valencia has started most of the games there in that time and he's done nothing to justify starting games for us. Nani has been either off form or injured with the sporadic good performance and adnan hasn't been played there for a substantial amount of time. Its not like they're 'lighting' up the place there, its IMO a matter of simply trying something different and perhaps, just maybe young could perform better there than what we've seen from the others.
I think an important distinction to made in these case is that's it's not black and white/foul or dive. It's entirely possible for a defender to commit a foul and a forward to dive in the same incident, in which case both parties should be punished. I'm not saying that's true for this exact case, but I think it's something that needs to be addressed
Simply punishing the individuals who dive isn't going to stop it happening because in a game referees often wont give a foul in the box unless a player goes down and ultimately in the modern game with millions of quid flying about, winning a game for your team is worth more than receiving a yellow card and having folks on the internet have a cardiac. The solution is for referees to call fouls inside the box in the same way they would outside it, if a player illegally impeded in any part of the pitch a foul should be called unless there's advantage, regardless of which they fall over or not. This would stop defenders getting handsy which would stop giving divers an excuse. Not that that is particularly realistic.
Simply punishing the individuals who dive isn't going to stop it happening because in a game referees often wont give a foul in the box unless a player goes down and ultimately in the modern game with millions of quid flying about, winning a game for your team is worth more than receiving a yellow card and having folks on the internet have a cardiac. The solution is for referees to call fouls inside the box in the same way they would outside it, if a player illegally impeded in any part of the pitch a foul should be called unless there's advantage, regardless of which they fall over or not. This would stop defenders getting handsy which would stop giving divers an excuse. Not that that is particularly realistic.
I now expect the manager to go one step further with the internal action and keep him well away from the first team for a few weeks. There is enough bad press as it is, don't need this idiot bringing a diving row up every fortnight.
I think the worst thing is, his diving is my only memory of him since his brace against Spurs.
Sorry, don't agree. Young has had three dives in a United shirt that I remember. I've seen Suarez dive more in the two or three games he's played against us than Young has in all his games for us.
That's my main problem with Young. Instead of looking to continue an attack of be a goal threat, he's always looking for the foul he can manufacture instead.
The one against Palace (the one he was booked for) I thought Young did incredibly well. He rinsed 3 players, by cutting in and out. Great wingplay. He's got himself and the ball in a great position to lash at goal with nobody infront of him, but instead he dives, and get's booked for diving, when it looked easier to take a shot from a great position.
His game is primarily based on playing for the penalty, and not the goal, and I can't stand that. At least when Ronaldo dived, it wasn't his sole focus. He took advantage of situations when they arose (and I'm not condoning that) but he didn't compromise being a dangerous player for it anywhere near the amount Young does.
Why does it matter if he or she from over there dives more? It doesn't make Young look any better.
Yes - but then again the rules themselves may be the problem. As Poll says, regarding the latest Young incident, in his column: "Law does not legislate for the extent of contact". In the case of holding, this means that pulling someone's arm or shirt is a foul regardless - doesn't matter if you tear the man's shirt to pieces or barely tug at it, doesn't matter if you choke him to death or just slightly grab his arm for a tenth of a second: A pull is a pull - and it's a foul. If every such instance resulted in a free kick it would make any match unwatchable. And it's not a matter of not seeing it either. Refs are clearly aware of shirt pulling in the box on corners - they would have to be blind as bats not to see it with such regularity. They ignore it unless it's extremely blatant or positively decisive, e.g. when a defender openly holds back a player in a scoring position.
The rules should be revised in my opinion. Introduce something akin to the "excessive force" principle which applies for other types of fouls. It would be a matter of interpretation, yes - but that's surely better than simply ignoring fouls just because it would be absurd to strike down on every incident. The latter is what a decent ref has to do - and that indicates there's something wrong with the rule itself, I'd say.
He maybe better on the right, but how much better?United have 4 right footed wingers. 3 predominantly play on the right. Valencia is more solid and can fill in at right back, Nani is more talented and has just signed a 5 year contract.
Zaha the youngest who is also more talented cannot even make the squad. Having 3 right footed wingers competing for the same spot is too much. Having 4 is overkill. Plus you have Januzaj. At the age Young is and what he has produced to date, it's a no brainer. If he is no use on the left, United have to get rid.
Yeah I should have made myself clearer. I don't mean people should be penalised for even the most miniscule things, as you say that'd ruin the game somewhat. For what it's worth I think referees, especially in this country, generally do a good job in making calls as to what constitutes a foul outside the box. They just don't seem to have the confidence to make the exact same calls once a player enters the box. Obviously every referee is slightly different and they like different amounts of contact and that's inevitable and part of the game as far as I'm concerned. All I want is for referees to be consistent in their calling of a foul regardless of where the contact takes place. There's probably a dedicated thread for this kicking about somewhere.
It does matter that diving, shirt pulling, pushing and all other manner of cheating takes place throughout every game of football. I don't want to see Young targeted by the fans or media, but we all know that news with Manchester United in it sells better than news with any other team in England, and so Young's dives become an issue when his actions are a drop in the bucket of cheating in football.
A cheat is a cheat and Ashley Young is a serial cheat. I don't think I've ever seen a player in a United shirt make the most of contact as he does.
Of course it's highlighted more when it's United. That's why people want him to stop or feck off. Suarez and others can dive all he wants, that the business of Liverpool and the football authorities.
Young is one of the worst when it comes to kicking his own leg into the opponents leg and conning the ref and his fellow professionals. I think you're too driven up by the idea of a ABU agenda from the outside as opposed to the Young situation. He's certainly got more than 3 dives to his name as well.
3 on the first page on Youtube. That doesn't include QPR, Sociedad, the one against Chelsea and about 100 others than people haven't had to put into videos because they weren't highlighted.
In fairness the one against City isn't engineered by Young - it's a bad challenge whether Young overplays it or not.
A bad challenge yes, but he's clearly stuck his leg out to make sure he makes contact. If he intended to stay on his feet, it wouldn't be a problem. But he's too obvious in his foul hunting. Sticking your own leg out onto a bad challenge you could possibly avoid is as bad as it gets.
Yes, I suppose so - for me the Villa one is the standout: That's a sheer construction on his part.
Nani and zaha can both play on the left to a high level. Seen them both do it but since Young has been here I've seen nothing to suggest he can do so. On the right we're getting little to no productivity as I said, what's the point of naming the amount of options we have if they aren't doing much when played in the role? Certainly not enough for another player not to get a look in. Give him a couple of games and see how he does. In all honesty he wouldn't have to do much to play at a level above what we've been seeing for the past year on the right wing.
Selling him would be decent option but on the money he's on and the amount of years he has left doubt we'd have a line outside our offices ready to take him.
Let us change the name of the player for a moment, and name him Steven Gerrard. Now, we are talking about a hypothetical last day match at Old Trafford where both teams are on the same number of points in the league with Liverpool in second place. Now, it is the last day, the excitement of possibly winning the league in Moyes's first season. It is 0-0, there is about 15 minutes to go and our forwards are firing blanks. Up steps Gerrard, exactly in the same position as Young was, he feels a slight tug from Rio, who is clearly impeding the view of the referee. However, Stevie Me goes down exactly like Ashley Young. The referee without reflection gives the penalty kick. How many of us Manchester United supporters would actually say it was the right decision by the referee, or would we call Gerrard a cheat, given that he has a reputation?
And the fact that he's not done anything of note since about March 2012 (other than a number of well known dives).
Bawl out Rio for defending badly, because that's the only thing in Uniteds control. Raging at Gerrard and the ref feels good, and I'd probably get stuck in myself, but ultimately Gerrard wouldn't have cheated. He broke no laws of the game. The ref saw a tug, and interpreted the situation a certain way, and that is that.
Footballs played on the pitch.
The only thing that concerns me as a Manchester United supporter, and that is we have supporters who are blind to the obvious. If Young had played for City, Real Madrid (that is a joke considering his level of footballing expertise), Liverpool or any other club that we could consider rivals, we would have called it just the same. Why is it alright for a minority to criticise others but not our players, when a majority share the opinion that he dived? The fact of the matter is that if we watched the gif over and over again, his right foot clearly made an unnatural movement, as if it gave way under the weight.
what are you? A monk?If Mertesacker pulls back RVP in the box on Sunday I hope he takes 4 strides then drops like a stone , and the ref gives a penalty that wins the game.
I'd love it, if thats what it took to win. And I suspect almost all United fans would love it too.
I'd love it, if thats what it took to win. And I suspect almost all United fans would love it too.
Must be natural for some people.
If it was one or two tumbles spread out here and there mixed in with fantastic football I think we'd be forgiven for being oblivious to it, but when it's the player's key attribute on the football pitch other than running straight into the corner and knocking it back to Evra...it's madness how it's even possible to try to defend him, even if another player at another club dives/cheats more.
Whilst all type of diving/injury feigning/general cheating is ridiculous, Young's manufactured fouls irk me. If he was falling over trying to jump out of the way of tackles we could sympathise with him but we can't, because he creates these fouls himself. He must have 20/20 and excellent peripheral vision, the cnut.
No, he didn't. Watch the gif again carefully and try to pause it using firefox. You will see that the referees point of view was blocked by the defender.
Here is the exact image:
There is no way in this world the referee could have seen a tug.
Can't post anything much on here because I'm so annoyed with Young keep falling over if he gets anywhere inside the penalty area. It's embarrassing.
Another image, and the referee is still behind the defender thus not in a position to give it, plus the official behind the goal didn't even make a gesture so, he simply gave it because he saw someone dive (I mean fall over intentionally.)
Wow, you're nuts. Just look at yourself. I've not seen anyone so obsessed with proving that a United player 'cheated' outside of RAWK.
Why don't you stalk down the referee and ask him what he saw?
Was that the ref who sent off Rafael in 2010? 1 for 1?
Of course you can Def Red...
Simply put, even with image evidence, even with a gif, it is still not enough to convince others that it was a clear dive.Footballs not for bedwetters. Thank feck.
What do you want me to do, sing his praises? Get a grip of yourself and look at the facts. The fact that you cannot even provide anything to the contrary just backs up not just my argument, but those who have also argued the point that Young dived.
Edit:
We get it, you support a serial cheat.
Nor a clear penalty.....Of course you can Def Red...
Edit all you want. I look forward to your in-depth analysis from now on proving every soft penalty Barca get is disgraceful cheating and how the player involved should be shot.
And I hope United win many many soft penalties this season. No matter how much it makes you cry.
Here we go again. You and Ghaliboy are incredible. It really is pathetic that you have to resort to bringing up Barcelona and their "soft-penalties." What do you want me to say about the penalty last night? Just for you charleysurf, it was NOT a penalty, and neither was Youngs. I like Barca, but I support Manchester United and always will do. However, I am still waiting for you to convince not just myself but others about how Young's penalty was a correct decision in spite of pics showing the contrary.
At the same time, your obsession with Luiz Suarez on Redcafe is legendary, just like my obsession with Ronaldo...
Edit: @Red Defence: You are right, it wasn't a penalty...
You've not shown any pics showing that the defender didn't tug on Ashley Young.
The defender took a chance, and Young took advantage. Barca take advantage of such feckups by defenders all the time.
You say "correct decison" like its something that can be objectively judged, beyond all discussion. But the referee makes the decision. And I bet he'd say he was right if he was asked again. He'd say there was a pull on the attacker with the ball, so he was right.
We're just fools posting opinions on a web forum.
Again, I hope United get a sot penalty against Arsenal. And I hope people praying we miss it are dissapointed this time.
You are right for once. However, I did prove a point that the referee was in no way in a position to see that there was an imaginary tug. That is just my point, unless he has x-ray vision that we don't know about, there was NO way he could have seen anything and he simply acted because he saw Young fall to the floor.
It was a correct decision back then. Both yellows he got were fair, admittedly he was provoked by van Bommel who fouled him twice on the first occasion but that doesn't give him the right to lash back.
Thanks, that really means a lot. Especially coming under fire from anonymous Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime on a forum. I was in the dark.. Really wallowing.