Smashley Young

ghaliboy said:
Because I find it hilarious the lengths people are going to because it's Ashley Young. The ref gave a yellow card, he had to know what the foul was for.
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The referee send of Torres last year for diving despite he was clearly fouled. Referee send off Nani for a challenge that probably wasn't worth of a booking. The referee didn't award a few pens to Chelsea against Barca despite they were penalties. The referee gave a pen to Newcastle 2 seasons ago against us despite Rio getting the ball. Referee send off Totti in 2002 against South Korea for a dive when he was hit so much that the Korea player should have got at-least a booking. Referee failed to see Drogba's clear offside against us and later he failed to see Macheda's goal which was scored by his hand.

Referee clearly knew what he did, I mean, it is impossible that he might get a decision wrong, like ever.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
And the attackers who are being tugged when a corner is taken?? Surely you are in agreement that in that case, a penalty should be awarded after every corner...don't you agree or is that hyperbole on my part?
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read my comments, attackers with the ball being tugged back will quite often result in penalties. I can't believe anyone would claim otherwise.

Whether they do or not is entirely at the whim of the ref.
 
Revan said:
The referee send of Torres last year for diving despite he was clearly fouled. Referee send off Nani for a challenge that probably wasn't worth of a booking. The referee didn't award a few pens to Chelsea against Barca despite they were penalties. The referee gave a pen to Newcastle 2 seasons ago against us despite Rio getting the ball. Referee send off Totti in 2002 against South Korea for a dive when he was hit so much that the Korea player should have got at-least a booking. Referee failed to see Drogba's clear offside against us and later he failed to see Macheda's goal which was scored by his hand.
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I seem to remember Carrick being penalised at Stamford Bridge for a dodgy hand ball. That night I was so wound up I went out and had Sushi. Salmon rolls, so good. Cheers me up every time.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
And the attackers who are being tugged when a corner is taken?? Surely you are in agreement that in that case, a penalty should be awarded after every corner...don't you agree or is that hyperbole on my part?
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No, they rarely are given for that. But running with the ball and getting handled, they often are.

Football is not an aesthetic exercise, with referees making clearcut decisons that nobody can question.
 
Graham Poll reckons the ref was right. There was a tug, hence the penalty is justifiable. Whether the contact is blatant or minimal makes no difference, he says - which is true in terms of the rules. Also makes a point about the difference between overdoing it and diving as such.

The problem, of course, is that whether you're awarded a penalty or not when someone grabs your shirt seems almost perfectly arbitrary. But I have to agree with what others have said here: If you do grab that shirt, you're at the ref's mercy.
 
I called it in real time: dive.

He's an embarrassment to the club with his antics. You can forgive the odd dive in isolation, but he's doing this on a regular basis.

Worse still, he sullied a rare positive outing.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Graham Poll reckons the ref was right. There was a tug, hence the penalty is justifiable. Whether the contact is blatant or minimal makes no difference, he says - which is true in terms of the rules. Also makes a point about the difference between overdoing it and diving as such.

The problem, of course, is that whether you're awarded a penalty or not when someone grabs your shirt seems almost perfectly arbitrary. But I have to agree with what others have said here: If you do grab that shirt, you're at the ref's mercy.
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I've read that article in the Mail by Poll and I completely disagree. I personally don't think minimal contact should mean it is technically a foul and I don't think Uefa believes that either. Poll also compares the 'soft penalty' to a similar 'soft penalty', Collina (now head of Referees at Uefa) awarded to the Dutch against the Czech Republic in the semi-finals of Euro 2000, to justify the penalty. There is simply no comparison.(http://truba.com/video/87464/ 8.35 mins in)

Poll states in the article:
FIFA instruct that referees should not caution for diving if there is ‘any contact’ as that is ‘exaggeration’ and not 'simulation'.
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If that is the case I disagree with that, but I appreciate how hard it is for referees differentiate
whether there is minimal contact or not considering how skilled players can be these days at conning referees.

On a another note, the faux outrage here because it is Young, is as hilarious as the dive it's self.
 
psychdelicblues said:
On a another note, the faux outrage here because it is Young, is as hilarious as the dive it's self.
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Why exactly, I've seen numerous people say this or something similar, but I don't get why it's wrong to be more outraged that Young did it than if any other player on the team did it. Have you seen the media reaction to the whole thing? Do you think any other footballer on our team would've gotten a reaction like that? No, because no other player already has a reputation for dives like Ashley Young does, no other player has been publicly criticized by two of our managers for doing it so far and told to cut it out, and obviously hasn't listened to either of them and has continued to do so.

He deserves the reaction he's getting because he's the worst fecking diver in the EPL (alongside Suarez) and it gives our club a bad rep and contradicts what our managers have said.
 
psychdelicblues said:
On a another note, the faux outrage here because it is Young, is as hilarious as the dive it's self.
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You've said yourself there was contact, it's not a dive.

Cina said:
Why exactly, I've seen numerous people say this or something similar, but I don't get why it's wrong to be more outraged that Young did it than if any other player on the team did it..
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What did you think of Neymar and Lewandowski this morning?
 
ghaliboy said:
What did you think of Neymar and Lewandowski this morning?
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That they were terrible dives, obviously. Neymar is getting a bad reaction too cause he also has a reputation for diving, whatever the feck the point of this question was.
psychdelicblues said:
I agree......it was more just falling over then a dive.
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What the hell is the difference?
 
Jaybezia said:
Falling Over is when you've had enough contact to make the decision not yours, you are falling over.

A dive is where you have chosen to go to ground.. Obviously the line differs due to people strengths etc
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Falling over is intentional, ergo it's a dive. There's no difference.
 
Jaybezia said:
According to the rule book he'd be correct, but I think that just highlights the idiocy of the wording in the rules.
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Since when did the laws of football govern physics?

Contact does not preclude it from being a dive. If Young chose to go to ground, rather than being forced to ground by the contact, then it's a dive, simple as that.

Saying that contact = no dive no matter what is either full retard or a wum. With ghaliboy I'm honestly not sure which.
 
Cina said:
Do you really believe Ashley Young 'fell over' last night? Whatever it is, there's no difference between the two in this context, because when you dive, you fall over.
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:lol: No not in the slightest, I'd agree with you, was just pointing out there clearly is a difference, not to prove a point but to respond to address phsychadelicblues comment of 'I agree......it was more just falling over then a dive.' You said, whats the difference? So i responded, but I'd agree with you personally, I think he dived.

Rado_N said:
Since when did the laws of football govern physics?

Contact does not preclude it from being a dive. If Young chose to go to ground, rather than being forced to ground by the contact, then it's a dive, simple as that.

Saying that contact = no dive no matter what is either full retard or a wum. With ghaliboy I'm honestly not sure which.
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That's a fair point, I appreciate you can have contact and it not be 'enough' to force you to ground, hence you are making a choice, but either way in spite of all this, I'm in the 'it was a dive camp', but for me I'm quite old fashioned in the sense of I don't think half the dives/fouls are actually fouls nowadays, I hate the idea of 'playing for a foul', one thing I don't understand is why Young is doing it, if his manager didn't come out in public and slate him, I might be inclined to think Moyes is having a quiet word, but it's obvious that isn't the wish of HIS manager, and yet it persists?

But anyway, back to your point, perhaps my wording wasn't brilliant, what I meant more is that the rules say 'Excessive force' I think it is? Which is obviously subjective so very hard to PROVE 100% either way.. but yea I'd agree it was a dive, I remember seeing Roy Keane against Southampton back in 96 who we ended up loosing 6-3 to surprisingly enough, but Keane (before he was sent off for exacting his revenge) rode about 6 or 7 challenges, that each WERE a foul, but you could see with him, it wasn't about playing for the foul, he'd rather power through and try and stay on his feet, that I respect.
 
Jaybezia said:
:lol: No not in the slightest, I'd agree with you, was just pointing out there clearly is a difference, not to prove a point but to respond to address phsychadelicblues comment of 'I agree......it was more just falling over then a dive.' You said, whats the difference? So i responded, but I'd agree with you personally, I think he dived.
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There's no difference, if he said "he was fouled", there would be a difference, but falling over and diving are not mutually exclusive, if you dive, you can fall over. If you're fouled, you can fall over. Generally anytime you fall, you fall over, regardless of whether it's intentional or not! Saying he 'fell over' was a ridiculous comment because regardless of whether it was a legitimate foul or a dive, in both cases, he fell over!
 
Understand and largely agree with the criticisms of him as a player but I don't for one second buy this faux-outrage over the diving. He's been hammered by us for diving not because we've suddenly had a conversion on the road to Damascus and gone from "In general I disapprove but if it helps my team I'll not protest too much" - the opinion of every football fan in the land - to:"OMG he dived, I'm disgusted!!" - but because of the form of the player. It has nothing to do with diving, it's because it's Ashley Young.

While slamming diving is commendable I think it's blatantly transparent why a lot of fans have suddenly developed a holier-than-thou disgust at it from this particular player.
 
I don't really buy that, plenty got tired of theatrics from other, better players in the past and voiced their disapproval.

Granted the fact that Young seems to be generally disliked and not in great form isn't going to help with fans reaction - all the more reason not to dive.
 
Plugsy said:
Understand and largely agree with the criticisms of him as a player but I don't for one second buy this faux-outrage over the diving. He's been hammered by us for diving not because we've suddenly had a conversion on the road to Damascus and gone from "In general I disapprove but if it helps my team I'll not protest too much" - the opinion of every football fan in the land - to:"OMG he dived, I'm disgusted!!" - but because of the form of the player. It has nothing to do with diving, it's because it's Ashley Young.

While slamming diving is commendable I think it's blatantly transparent why a lot of fans have suddenly developed a holier-than-thou disgust at it from this particular player.
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It is possible that we would have been less harsh if it was a good player who dived. But that's only part of the story. The other part is that we didn't went mad because Young dived, we were so harsh because he dived again, after diving a lot of times before and being publicly criticized by our current and previous manager. If Young is a very unpopular player dives rarely we wouldn't do the same (imagine Buttner/Ando diving he would have been mentioned a bit and that's it). But Young dives everytime he is near some other player so it's natural to be more harsh on a repeated cheater than in someone who cheats once a year.
 
Plugsy said:
Understand and largely agree with the criticisms of him as a player but I don't for one second buy this faux-outrage over the diving. He's been hammered by us for diving not because we've suddenly had a conversion on the road to Damascus and gone from "In general I disapprove but if it helps my team I'll not protest too much" - the opinion of every football fan in the land - to:"OMG he dived, I'm disgusted!!" - but because of the form of the player. It has nothing to do with diving, it's because it's Ashley Young.

While slamming diving is commendable I think it's blatantly transparent why a lot of fans have suddenly developed a holier-than-thou disgust at it from this particular player.
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Nah, it's more because he does it so often, so blatantly, so badly, and in spite of being publically told not to by two of our managers.

Like Eyepopper says, the fact that he's generally not too popular won't help his cause, but on the flip side, the fact that he's such a prolific diver is a big part of the reason he's not too popular.
 
Eyepopper said:
I don't really buy that, plenty got tired of theatrics from other, better players in the past and voiced their disapproval.

Granted the fact that Young seems to be generally disliked and not in great form isn't going to help with fans reaction - all the more reason not to dive.
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I don't think they get nearly as much. From other fans? Sure. But from their own? I don't recall.

It's dandy being against diving and you'd hope and expect the manager to clamp down on it internally but it just seems as if a large part of the outrage on behalf of United fans has as much to do with who is diving rather than the diving itself. If Hernandez or Evra were guilty, even as multiple offenders, I don't think it'd even be on our radar. Yes at the time we'd offer some generic, politician's disapproval of it whilst secretly thinking "Penalty. Get in!" but there wouldn't be this level of disapproval that I think isn't exactly genuine.
 
Plugsy said:
I don't think they get nearly as much. From other fans? Sure. But from their own? I don't recall.

It's dandy being against diving and you'd hope and expect the manager to clamp down on it internally but it just seems as if a large part of the outrage on behalf of United fans has as much to do with who is diving rather than the diving itself. If Hernandez or Evra were guilty, even as multiple offenders, I don't think it'd even be on our radar. Yes at the time we'd offer some generic, politician's disapproval of it whilst secretly thinking "Penalty. Get in!" but there wouldn't be this level of disapproval that I think isn't exactly genuine.
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You only need to look at the reactions when Januzaj did it that one time to see that's not really true. There's not many players more popular than him on here at the minute, and from memory there was pretty much universal disapproval. Obviously the vitriol wasn't there, but generally speaking we don't want to see our players dive.
 
Cina said:
There's no difference, if he said "he was fouled", there would be a difference, but falling over and diving are not mutually exclusive, if you dive, you can fall over. If you're fouled, you can fall over. Generally anytime you fall, you fall over, regardless of whether it's intentional or not! Saying he 'fell over' was a ridiculous comment because regardless of whether it was a legitimate foul or a dive, in both cases, he fell over!
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Yea I had taken it slightly out of context I suppose, Rado pointed it out above you...
 
Plugsy said:
I don't think they get nearly as much. From other fans? Sure. But from their own? I don't recall.

It's dandy being against diving and you'd hope and expect the manager to clamp down on it internally but it just seems as if a large part of the outrage on behalf of United fans has as much to do with who is diving rather than the diving itself. If Hernandez or Evra were guilty, even as multiple offenders, I don't think it'd even be on our radar. Yes at the time we'd offer some generic, politician's disapproval of it whilst secretly thinking "Penalty. Get in!" but there wouldn't be this level of disapproval that I think isn't exactly genuine.
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Not to post meaningless content, but the fallout from the press has been just as bad as the fallout on here for this. it's not just a case of us being so angry because he's a bit shit, it's cause he keeps doing it and keeps getting this club in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons. He's also completely destroying any sort of reputation he had left.

The Independent's football correspondent Ian Herbert says Manchester United's Ashley Young has fallen so low at Old Trafford that there may no no way back following his latest diving controversy against Real Sociedad on Tuesday.
Herbert writes: "When you observed Young's surly march through the player/media mixed zone and straight up on to the team bus late on Tuesday - and then saw Antonio Valencia linger to sign Spanish supporters' autographs - you wondered why a desire to be liked, that very fundamental human condition, does not provoke a reaction in the player.
"He is 28 years old now - no longer on the learning curve - yet as distant from fans as he is from those who report on United."
Jaybezia said:
Yea I had taken it slightly out of context I suppose, Rado pointed it out above you...
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The bastard, always a step ahead.
 
The moral issue aside for one moment, if you look at this technically it's really a question of whether the defender tugs at Young's shirt or not: It's clearly not a shove or anything which can be deemed excessive force. But if you tug at an opponent's shirt - that is a foul, regardless of how forcefully you do it: It constitutes "hindrance" or whatever the official term is. If this is what takes place the ref is technically right to call the penalty, whether Young goes down easily or not (and he obviously does, I don't think anyone questions this). This was largely Keano's point too, as I took it.

As for the outrage, it's understandable. Young has gained a reputation for diving and that is entirely his own fault. However, I think people are going overboard with this. He's turning into Suarez fast round here - and that's a bit too much, surely.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
The moral issue aside for one moment, if you look at this technically it's really a question of whether the defender tugs at Young's shirt or not: It's clearly not a shove or anything which can be deemed excessive force. But if you tug at an opponent's shirt - that is a foul, regardless of how forcefully you do it: It constitutes "hindrance" or whatever the official term is. If this is what takes place the ref is technically right to call the penalty, whether Young goes down easily or not (and he obviously does, I don't think anyone questions this). This was largely Keano's point too, as I took it.

As for the outrage, it's understandable. Young has gained a reputation for diving and that is entirely his own fault. However, I think people are going overboard with this. He's turning into Suarez fast round here - and that's a bit too much, surely.
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I don't think anybody's claiming he hates black people to be fair.

Although, a black person hating other black people, that seems very like Ashley Young doesn't it? God, he's such a damn racist.
 
It's the old debate of when you're 'entitled' to go down. Not necessarily applying this to any Young situation but if you're in possession of the ball and you're tugged back and are put off your stride as a result of what would be illegal contact, even if you can stay on your feet, if the control you once had of the ball had suffered interference - why should you?

IMO a player is only under a moral obligation to remain on his feet if his control of the ball has been unaffected by the infringement. If so, he'll carry on. If not then staying on the feet in a way acts as protection for the opposition player. I don't believe they should be protected. There are times when a player is entitled to go down to emphasise the point to the referee even if the contact alone wasn't enough to bring him down.
 
I wonder if that would send Young to the ground in a nightclub. To be honest, the 'tug' was sort of how I might pull at a lady as she walked past me in a noisy club to get her attention.

His diving, coupled with the fact that he's an overpaid, non-contributing player for us just increases the ill-feeling towards him. At least we are not hearing a whole load of 'this i what the foreigners have brought to our game' stuff.
 
Plugsy said:
I don't think they get nearly as much. From other fans? Sure. But from their own? I don't recall.

It's dandy being against diving and you'd hope and expect the manager to clamp down on it internally but it just seems as if a large part of the outrage on behalf of United fans has as much to do with who is diving rather than the diving itself. If Hernandez or Evra were guilty, even as multiple offenders, I don't think it'd even be on our radar. Yes at the time we'd offer some generic, politician's disapproval of it whilst secretly thinking "Penalty. Get in!" but there wouldn't be this level of disapproval that I think isn't exactly genuine.
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Yes you're probably right. People are more against the diving if it's Ashley Young than if it's Hernandez or Kagawa or whoever, because simply; what else does Young offer apart from the occasional win of a penalty, the majority of the time via diving?
 
So now we're re-defining the laws of physics as set out by our man Issac Newton in order to justify Youngs dive?

How minimal does the contact have to be to justify 'falling over'(diving)? It was a dive about that there is no question, as diving is not just when there is no contact its also when there is little contact and the player goes down when they could have stayed up. Unless Young suffers from vertigo or had downed a few whiskeys just before coming on, there is no way that very small contact would have caused him to fall over.

Also a players body language can tell you a lot about whether it was manufactured. It was clearly very minimal contact and an exaggerated fall, yet he screamed for a penalty as though it was a stone waller, followed by high fiving Kagawa as soon as it was awarded. Nothing more than a cheat, and no more a cheat than Suarez, Drogba, Neymar etc, the main difference being that those players have a million more things to offer than just that so their entire game does not revolve around diving to win penalties. The reason people see him as embarrassing is not purely because he dives, its because he dives and is also a crap player that shouldn't be playing for United anyway.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
The moral issue aside for one moment, if you look at this technically it's really a question of whether the defender tugs at Young's shirt or not: It's clearly not a shove or anything which can be deemed excessive force. But if you tug at an opponent's shirt - that is a foul, regardless of how forcefully you do it: It constitutes "hindrance" or whatever the official term is. If this is what takes place the ref is technically right to call the penalty, whether Young goes down easily or not (and he obviously does, I don't think anyone questions this). This was largely Keano's point too, as I took it.

As for the outrage, it's understandable. Young has gained a reputation for diving and that is entirely his own fault. However, I think people are going overboard with this. He's turning into Suarez fast round here - and that's a bit too much, surely.
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We can only wish.
 
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