What sort of bans are we talking about though? Tony Cascarino was saying 5 matches, that means we're saying simulation is a worse offence than a high two footed tackle that could break someone's leg, which seems very wrong to me. I think we should give referees the power to give a straight red card in the game for any blatant dive, and by that I mean when there is absolutely no contact, not when someone goes down easily. After that there is no more action, so by diving you run the risk of your team going down to ten men and costing them the game, but you don't get banned for future games.
Smashley Young
- Thread starter Red Defence
- Start date
It's not about the seriousness of the offence but the extent of the problem. I think if people really want to tackle this then there needs to be some sort of admission that the problem is massive and that there should be a suspension in consistency when it comes to handing out bans.
The fact that this hasn't been done has led to 'going down easily' becoming such an acceptable part of the game. People don't even question that aspect of simulation now and just zoom in on any contact whatsoever. I feel sorry most of all for defenders, because if I ever played against someone that was going to go down as easily as most modern day footballers, then I'd probably be shitting it every time they ran at me. People are always going on about modern day defending, the defending in La Liga (rightly or wrongly), the lack of truly great centre backs...but is it any suprise? Diving and lesser forms of simulation are having an enormous impact on the way the game is played.
*Should probably clear up that I think diving should be a straight red in this situation.
The fact that this hasn't been done has led to 'going down easily' becoming such an acceptable part of the game. People don't even question that aspect of simulation now and just zoom in on any contact whatsoever. I feel sorry most of all for defenders, because if I ever played against someone that was going to go down as easily as most modern day footballers, then I'd probably be shitting it every time they ran at me. People are always going on about modern day defending, the defending in La Liga (rightly or wrongly), the lack of truly great centre backs...but is it any suprise? Diving and lesser forms of simulation are having an enormous impact on the way the game is played.
*Should probably clear up that I think diving should be a straight red in this situation.
I used to think that too and I still do but I think if they do that then they need to go the whole way and bring in video replay. Players should rightly get punished for diving, but what about players who get away with giving away blatant penalties. Some of them might even be looking at straight reds.
I think so too, and it definitely wouldn't be as simple as just implementing it. Maybe there could be some sort of Hawkeye type thing (still at the ref's discretion) whereby a team would have a limited amount of chances to challenge key decisions? That actually risks breaking up the flow of play if not implemented properly but the problem is so widespread that it's a case of the lesser of two evils.
There must be some sort of system that would at least aid this. It would require co-operation from the entire Premier League, but refusal in this regard would be seriously bad PR, surely.
People saying he isn't worth £18m are certainly not clueless (particularly with 12 months left on his deal). I am unsure if you watched Young play regularly for Aston Villa but if you had you'd have known he almost certainly wasn't a player that could seriously compete at our level. The majority of my friends being Villa fans has meant that I've watched Young 15-20 times a season since 07/08.
He is a player that statistically hugely benefited from the system that O'Neil employed at Villa, whereby he took every set piece for a team who heavily relied on goals from set pieces. Likewise their defensive style of play meant that their wingers were always the only outlet for the team. It's like I said in the Baines thread - you can't judge a player who a team is built around by their stats, when the purchasing club will do anything but make him their main man. I believe Baines for instance created more chances last season than any other player in Europe.
The shame of it is 5-6 years ago I thought he would become a top player. He was a player who had 1 great game, followed by 3-4 decent ones (by Villa's standards) and I naturally assumed that with age would come improvement and consistency. Unfortunately for Villa and now us it became abundantly clear (4-5 years ago) that he was making absolutely no progression in this regard.
Young has never been a "top 4" player and shouldn't have been on any top 4 teams' radar since he was merely an exciting prospect at 21.
I like Young... Think he is a top winger who plays the game fair and square!
I know Villa fans that were even saying this. There is a misconception that he was some sort of continuously excellent, orthodox winger that was creating week in, week out with his general play. He wasn't; his role was more akin to Bale's at Spurs than his more defined role here, with him sometimes drifting into central areas and taking all the set pieces. There is a freedom he was afforded that he was never going to have here, which is why I was so surprised at the time that we were going in for him. It seemed such a clear case of 'big fish, small pond' syndrome.
When you see some of the posts made at the time of his signing on the first few pages they look delusional then and now.
Excact same sentiments here.
Then again I thought Valencia would not live up to United's level which proved to be a shit prediction.
One of the stranger signings in recent times by us.
Aye, been thinking that all week, if he was skinning people and banging in goals we'd defend him to the hilt.
I dunno about the part of Villa fans not rating him.
I remember having a read at Villa forums when he was leaving, and it was clear all of them were gutted. Have to say he has surprised me, thought he would've been better than this when he came on.
I remember having a read at Villa forums when he was leaving, and it was clear all of them were gutted. Have to say he has surprised me, thought he would've been better than this when he came on.
I dont think you;d defend the dive but I think you wouldnt be so bothered about it being part of his game if he was also a world class player.
Why? Dont judge others by your standards
He dives more than our other players. He's called out for it more than our other players. Shock, horror
YESSSSSSSSSSS!
Played his part nicely in the Valencia goal. I imagine every single one of us was pulling the same face when he came on though.
Do we think he's going to slide right down to the bottom of the pecking order when we get Welbeck and Nani back?
Do we think he's going to slide right down to the bottom of the pecking order when we get Welbeck and Nani back?
Just me who thinks he's playing quite well, diving aside?
Credit to Young - looked very sharp when he came on tonight.
He has always been decent when he has space to operate in. When he doesn't, he is decidedly average.
He was a whole lot better today than on Saturday. I think he's actually a good player when we're playing on the counter. He can move into space with the ball really quickly and releases it at the right time. When teams sit off him he holds on to the ball too long and looks clueless and out of his depth.
After slagging him so much after the Palace game, I'd be tempted to start hm on Sunday. City seem to like giving teams room to play on the break, and Kagawa didn't look that sharp.
After slagging him so much after the Palace game, I'd be tempted to start hm on Sunday. City seem to like giving teams room to play on the break, and Kagawa didn't look that sharp.
Yeah, he impressed more than Kagawa certainly.
Young was a defensive substitution. He is a stronger defender than Kagawa, and he knows how to hold up play, keep the ball and draw a free kick.
I don't think it is fair to compare how a player does after United go a goal up to how a player was when the game was tight. Leverkusen had to come out and attack, and United were clearly sitting back and playing counterattacking football at that point. It makes for some exciting football and goals on the counterattack, but whether Young would have looked as good if he had started the match is open to question.
I don't think it is fair to compare how a player does after United go a goal up to how a player was when the game was tight. Leverkusen had to come out and attack, and United were clearly sitting back and playing counterattacking football at that point. It makes for some exciting football and goals on the counterattack, but whether Young would have looked as good if he had started the match is open to question.
Please, no!
He actually looks more of a threat in the top matches than against opposition that sit back and soak up pressure. Counter atttacking football is his strength.
To be fair both Valencia and young have always looked alright on the counter, it's where they have to do something against an organised team that's the problem.
Ashley Young has reached a teammate with just one of 20 attempted crosses in three games.
Id defo agree with that. I still think the best Ive seen him play was when played tucked in behind the striker rather than as an out and out winger. Hes less time to think about things! Its was also in that role where he was fantastic for Watford.
Still not sure about Sunday though Noddle....
In short both players lack creativity. They are both fairly fast and Ashley has a fairly good shot on him at times but creating something in condensed space isn't really their strong suite.
He was excellent in the derby there last season. His movement and pace caused them all kinds of problems.
He's our best winger bar Nani. I really think he has a lot in his ammo to hurt opponents than Valencia or even Giggs. If he's not starting, Kagawa is not a bad replacement. Welbeck isn't a winger & Janujaz needs time.
if moyes is considering to start giggs on the left wing this weekend then young would be a much better option. nani starting would be a surprise considering the lack of match practice so i guess valencia on the right and young on the left is the best option now. want to see kagawa but again i don't think he is 100% yet.
Had a good game in the 3-2 win at the Etihad last season I remember, although this was in the middle of a "Young is shit" campaign on the caf so no one on here wanted to admit it.
Only a Chelsea fan can spew such.....Valencia has been much worse than Young in the last month. Valencia's best game yet was in the midweek. Phil Neville must have had words with him to put in an early cross instead of always running the ball to the bye-line before crossing. Young's contribution to the 3rd goal against Leverkusen is all you need to know that he's far more intelligent and he's quicker to decide what he intends to do with the ball.
I strongly disagree with some of this. We have played three games this month thus far. I'll quickly "analyse" how well both have done in these performances. Young was very poor against Liverpool - apart from one great ball into the box, he was a poor outlet for us. Valencia, on the other hand, changed the complexion of our wing by himself, as a right back. (Valencia the better player in this game.) Against Crystal Palace, Young was quite clearly better. And against Bayer Leverkusen, Valencia had a good time exploiting Leverkusen's left-hand side, registering one assist and scoring a goal. Young came on and did well, but he wasn't better. Overall, I'd agree that Young is better than Valencia because he has slightly more - which isn't saying much - variety in his game. Valencia's game, however, is much more than using the byline as code... He is one of our best pressers and covers well at right back. I also think it's farcical to use Young's pre-assist to portray that he is an intelligent player, or in this case - more intelligent than Valencia. You've isolated one good event out of the many poor attempts at Young trying to think intelligently (see Young vs Crystal Palace, for example).
This is one of the example of Young's intelligence. Look at his penetration and the direction he took - veering towards the goal. The best part for me was his perfect timing of the pass to Rooney. A split second earlier or later to release that ball and the chance would have been lost. It's fair to say if that was Valencia, he would run straight line towards the corner flag and pass the ball near the bye-line.
It's a shame it's gotten to the stage whereby reasonable comparisons are being drawn between Young and Valencia. That's not even ripping into Young; it's just that Valencia at his best was clearly a beast and a considerably better player than Young has ever been. I liked what I saw against Leverkusen though and I would absolutely love to see Valencia return to form. He deserves it just on the basis of being one of football's good guys.
*If Young did that up there more, that'd be great. It's definitely within him to do more of that, but clips like that are a rarity at the moment rather than an indication of how he actually plays.
*If Young did that up there more, that'd be great. It's definitely within him to do more of that, but clips like that are a rarity at the moment rather than an indication of how he actually plays.
I'm not gonna let any of you lot live it down when you finally see how great Ashley Young is. It's somewhat embarrassing how shite so many of you are at judging player ability.
Remember that this forum thought both Young and Fellaini were shit. Remember those words in a couple of seasons' time.
Remember that this forum thought both Young and Fellaini were shit. Remember those words in a couple of seasons' time.
All Young needs is a run of games and we should hope his injury curse never returns. He's a brilliant player to have in the team. He has a lot more in his armoury to hurt the opposition than Tony Valencia. The Ecuadorian is quite predictable & if a marker matches Valencia's speed, he lacks the craft and trickery to excel against such marker...
Young can drift in and ping a killer pass....
Young can also make brilliant off-the-ball movements that can kill defenders like he mauled Ivanovic last season....
