Silvestre leaving as well

[Red For Ever]

You know this how?

I also read it in a paper at the time
But I dont recall seeing or hearing of any official quote
so it may have been Newspaper crap or more likely exageration
I remember thinking at the time, if its true cant blame him for standing his ground, Barton was, still is and probably always will be a total arse
I was trying to remember if they had ever clashed on or off the pitch
but dont recall any specific incident

 

[devilish]

You've been implying it.

where?

Ive always used the phrase adequate cover and strengthened my argument by saying that we don't need to spend 10m to bring in a good cover. NYou won't find someone as good as Rio for less then that. On the other hand you can find good center backs on cheap. In fact I used Ronnie Johnsen (reliable but certainly not as good as Rio) as an example.

Many people seem to forget that we had been dismantling the defense quality strength in depth little by little. Heinze has left a year ago while Pique has rejoined Barcelona. Now considering that no one knows exactly whether Gary Neville will return to his former best, then it is a bit risky to get rid of Mickey now expecially since we will be reduced to just one experienced central back cover who may end up being needed on the rear right flank permanently. Now ok we got away with it last season but I wouldnt try to tempt luck again.

Now Im all out in favour of young talent and all that BS but in the defense you simply need experience, expecially in the Central back roles.

 

[surf]

Nevile, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Brown, Oshea, Evans and Simpson have all proven they are up to the task. Simpson is the only one who has a question mark around him with regards to ability.

That's right. The first 7 plus Hargreaves as an occasional right back are enough defenders. Have a couple of versatile, youngish reserve defenders who can play across the whole back line like Evans and O'Shea playing 15 or 20 games each and getting the games that instead would have gone to Pique, Simpson and Silvestre. That way the cover defenders can remain reasonably match fit.

 

[Decotron]

where?

Ive always used the phrase adequate cover and strengthened my argument by saying that we don't need to spend 10m to bring in a good cover. NYou won't find someone as good as Rio for less then that. On the other hand you can find good center backs on cheap. In fact I used Ronnie Johnsen (reliable but certainly not as good as Rio) as an example.

Many people seem to forget that we had been dismantling the defense quality strength in depth little by little. Heinze has left a year ago while Pique has rejoined Barcelona. Now considering that no one knows exactly whether Gary Neville will return to his former best, then it is a bit risky to get rid of Mickey now expecially since we will be reduced to just one experienced central back cover who may end up being needed on the rear right flank permanently. Now ok we got away with it last season but I wouldnt try to tempt luck again.

Now Im all out in favour of young talent and all that BS but in the defense you simply need experience, expecially in the Central back roles.

100% fact. Thinking along the lines of Ronny Johnsen who would you like us to sign in that role?

 

[Sarni]

Champions of England

Champions of Europe

and we have more people leaving than coming in.

Point is, other top teams will strengthen their squad while we have only seemed to be interested in offloading players so far. People neglect importance of back-up players and overestimate the importance of winning the double. Yes, it's a huge achievement but we cannot stagnate now. Even though the squad won both trophies, I think there's a lot more that could be done to make it even stronger.

Offloading two useful defenders and not replacing them won't help the case.

 

[Sarni]

He was being sarcastic.

No, I wasn't. I wouldn't trust any of Evans, Simpson and O'Shea playing against top European teams, whereas I'd find Silvestre quite trustworthy in such situation. Yes, we won the CL, but bear in mind that none of our key defenders was injured in crucial stages of campaign. Go one year back and recall our encounter with Milan, when the makeshift defence with O'Shea, Heinze, Brown and Evra more or less lost us the cup that was within the reach.

Same goes for strikers. Obviously we can play Manucho or Campbell against Fulham, when we are 2-0 up, but will you trust them against Chelsea in a title decider?

People can go on about how we cannot have 22 players of equal quality, but truth is that when you look at Chelsea, Barcelona or even Inter, they have players on the bench who could come on and change the game, or replace crucial players in important moments. We have such players in midfield, but lack a good striker in the depth, and will lack a reliable defender if Tweety leaves.

 

[Yianni]

where?

Ive always used the phrase adequate cover and strengthened my argument by saying that we don't need to spend 10m to bring in a good cover. NYou won't find someone as good as Rio for less then that. On the other hand you can find good center backs on cheap. In fact I used Ronnie Johnsen (reliable but certainly not as good as Rio) as an example.

Many people seem to forget that we had been dismantling the defense quality strength in depth little by little. Heinze has left a year ago while Pique has rejoined Barcelona. Now considering that no one knows exactly whether Gary Neville will return to his former best, then it is a bit risky to get rid of Mickey now expecially since we will be reduced to just one experienced central back cover who may end up being needed on the rear right flank permanently. Now ok we got away with it last season but I wouldnt try to tempt luck again.

Now Im all out in favour of young talent and all that BS but in the defense you simply need experience, expecially in the Central back roles.

By saying O'shea is 'shit', implies you expect the club to find a player who is close to or as good as Rio or Vidic but you fail to realise no such player would join the club to sit on the bench. O'shea is a lot better then you give him credit for and you won't find any better players then that who will be content with the 'squad' player status. You could opt to find players like Cannavaro (I imagine this is the sort of player you’re referring to) who are decent, experienced but 35 years old and wouldn’t necessarily expect to start every match. Or you could trust the younger players or players like O'shea to cover the defence. IMO both options are good enough, but I’m stating that I prefer the latter.

Also, I’ve never completely ruled out the chance of buying more defenders (I did mention getting someone like Lahm). I have however said that the decision to go into the transfer market to buy one or two defenders shouldn’t be because of Silvestre’s departure and this is because, as I’ve pointed out, that in the last two seasons, he hasn’t played a significant role in the squad for the team to suffer in his absence. But I do feel that if he were to stay, with his experience and with Evans returning, he will no doubt probably prevent Evans from getting some experience in the first team.

We have experience, O’shea and Brown are experienced. You may not value O’shea but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have experience.

In previous seasons, how many defenders do you think we have had? Why is this a huge deal for you now, even after with the same defenders, we have won back-to-back league titles and the European cup?

 

[devilish]

By saying O'shea is 'shit', implies you expect the club to find a player who is close to or as good as Rio or Vidic but you fail to realise no such player would join the club to sit on the bench. O'shea is a lot better then you give him credit for and you won't find any better players then that who will be content with the 'squad' player status. You could opt to find players like Cannavaro (I imagine this is the sort of player you’re referring to) who are decent, experienced but 35 years old and wouldn’t necessarily expect to start every match. Or you could trust the younger players or players like O'shea to cover the defence. IMO both options are good enough, but I’m stating that I prefer the latter.

Also, I’ve never completely ruled out the chance of buying more defenders (I did mention getting someone like Lahm). I have however said that the decision to go into the transfer market to buy one or two defenders shouldn’t be because of Silvestre’s departure and this is because, as I’ve pointed out, that in the last two seasons, he hasn’t played a significant role in the squad for the team to suffer in his absence. But I do feel that if he were to stay, with his experience and with Evans returning, he will no doubt probably prevent Evans from getting some experience in the first team.

We have experience, O’shea and Brown are experienced. You may not value O’shea but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have experience.

In previous seasons, how many defenders do you think we have had? Why is this a huge deal for you now, even after with the same defenders, we have won back-to-back league titles and the European cup?

A) By saying that OShea is shit as central back I am implying that OShea is shit as central back.

B) There are many fairly good defenders who are ready to sit in the bench and compete for their place. Take Vidic for example. When he came to OT he was a bit of an unknown talent (for the EPL) who had never played in a big league and who came to compete with two English internationals (Rio and Wes) for a first team place. He was neither 35 yrs old nor at OShea's level. There are many others who does that. Just watch the list I have given you and as you can see many of them (Chivu, Metzelder, Samuel etc) are better then OShea as central back

C) Throughout the last 2 seasons we have left two defenders go. Heinze (who was never replaced) and Pique (replaced by Evans). Considering that no one knows the condition of Gaz 'two weeks' then selling Mickey and not bringing in no one is a bit of a risk.

D) OShea had rarely been utilised as central back therefore he has little experience in that role.This year he was played in that position and did well in the first game to then end up being substituted in the next because he was crap. There is nothing to suggest that he would do well in that role.

E) With Pique out, Evans will be able to play around 12 matches. If he is good enough then he will keep his place in the same way good old Vidic and Evra did. We dont need to get rid of Mickey (the only left footed defender we have apart from Evra) to do that. If Evans is half good as many of you potray him to be than he will make it no matter the opposition. AC Milan's defense was awesome but Maldini still made it and cemented his first team role at 17. Im not comparing Evans with a monster like Maldini but its also true that Evans is 20 and more experienced then a 17 yr old Maldini. Is it too hard for him to compete for a place with a defender at Mickey's level?

Now I suggest to you to involve Sarni in this discussion because with me things had been going in circles.

 

[Lot 49]

No, I wasn't. I wouldn't trust any of Evans, Simpson and O'Shea playing against top European teams, whereas I'd find Silvestre quite trustworthy in such situation. Yes, we won the CL, but bear in mind that none of our key defenders was injured in crucial stages of campaign.

I'm not sure what United you were watching last season but we actually did lose a key defender in Vidic who only played 33 minutes of both legs of the quarter and semi finals combined. O'Shea was the guy who came on in Rome for him btw and he did fine, but don't let facts get in the way of your devilish inspired "O'Shea is not good enough he can't be trusted!" position.

 

[devilish]

I'm not sure what United you were watching last season but we actually did lost a key defender in Vidic who only played 33 minutes of both legs of the quarter and semi finals combined. O'Shea was the guy who came on in Rome for him btw and he did fine, but don't let facts get in the way of your devilish inspired "O'Shea is not good enough HE CAN'T BE TRUSTED!" position.

The next game he played in that role and he was horrific. He ended up being substituted in fact.

 

[Lot 49]

He wasn't horrific and he got substituted to bring on a more attacking player, not because he was playing badly like you're insinuating.

 

[devilish]

He wasn't horrific and he got substituted to bring on a more attacking player, not because he was playing badly like you're insinuating.

And guess what, it was him that got replaced.

He played terribly that night and was given 5 - 6 ratings by many sites.

 

[Lot 49]

And guess what, it was him that got replaced.

He played terribly that night and was given 5 - 6 ratings by many sites.

The game wasn't at night.

He got replaced because we wanted to make an attacking substitution, the choice was between him and Brown and of the two Brown is the better player. If the choice was between Silvestre and Brown it would have been Silvestre off because Brown is better than him too.

omg he got rated 5-6 by many sites this is terrible. Please post some of these ratings so I can see what the others players in the team got. Not that this actually matters btw I'm just curious. You don't really base your opinions of players from what ratings they get given on sodding web sites do you

[edit] Never mind I had a look at the ever reliable MEN player ratings for the match and O'Shea actually got a 4! This is a catastrophe, how can Fergie rely on him to be a squad player in our best ever squad when the media are giving us in depth analysis of his game and assigining him a carefully determined out of 10 score no doubt based on the very strictest of formulae. We obviously can't trust him. Brown also got a 4 btw so I think he needs to be taken out the team as well and Evra and Tevez only managed 5s so they should be relegated to the bench.

You muppet.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I don't think Simpson is good enough, and Evans has yet to prove himself at this level. If we sell Silvestre we're gonna need a new defender.

Spot on

 

[Sarni]

I'm not sure what United you were watching last season but we actually did lose a key defender in Vidic who only played 33 minutes of both legs of the quarter and semi finals combined. O'Shea was the guy who came on in Rome for him btw and he did fine, but don't let facts get in the way of your devilish inspired "O'Shea is not good enough he can't be trusted!" position.

I forgot about Vidic's injury, although against Roma we still didn't look like conceding at all plus we were still left with Brown and Rio in the middle, which is a handy pairing that comes close to Vidic and Rio (Rio is undeniably our most important defender too). We also had to fill in right-back position with Hargreaves, hence we couldn't use him in midfield which was quite disturbing seeing as we've paid 17 million for him to play there.

I don't think we would have coped without Vidic in Moscow though, he was immense there.

O'Shea can cover almost every position on the pitch, although I wouldn't trust him in a crucial game regardless where he played. Obviously, he may have one or two very good games here and there, but generally he's been more of an utility player in his United career, used in crisis situation.

With our current personnel in defence minus Silvestre and Pique, he'd be used as a first substitute in many cases, which in my opinion is not going to do us any favours.

We need to improve.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I forgot about Vidic's injury, although against Roma we still didn't look like conceding at all plus we were still left with Brown and Rio in the middle, which is a handy pairing that comes close to Vidic and Rio (Rio is undeniably our most important defender too). We also had to fill in right-back position with Hargreaves, hence we couldn't use him in midfield which was quite disturbing seeing as we've paid 17 million for him to play there.

I don't think we would have coped without Vidic in Moscow though, he was immense there.

O'Shea can cover almost every position on the pitch, although I wouldn't trust him in a crucial game regardless where he played. Obviously, he may have one or two very good games here and there, but generally he's been more of an utility player in his United career, used in crisis situation.

With our current personnel in defence minus Silvestre and Pique, he'd be used as a first substitute in many cases, which in my opinion is not going to do us any favours.

We need to improve.

Agreed

 

[devilish]

The game wasn't at night.

He got replaced because we wanted to make an attacking substitution, the choice was between him and Brown and of the two Brown is the better player. If the choice was between Silvestre and Brown it would have been Silvestre off because Brown is better than him too.

omg he got rated 5-6 by many sites this is terrible. Please post some of these ratings so I can see what the others players in the team got. Not that this actually matters btw I'm just curious. You don't really base your opinions of players from what ratings they get given on sodding web sites do you

[edit] Never mind I had a look at the ever reliable MEN player ratings for the match and O'Shea actually got a 4! This is a catastrophe, how can Fergie rely on him to be a squad player in our best ever squad when the media are giving us in depth analysis of his game and assigining him a carefully determined out of 10 score no doubt based on the very strictest of formulae. We obviously can't trust him. Brown also got a 4 btw so I think he needs to be taken out the team as well and Evra and Tevez only managed 5s so they should be relegated to the bench.

You muppet.

The very fact that for many years SAF had always kept the OShea option (as central back) as the very last option says it all. Mickey, Vidic, Wes, Rio, Heinze and even Pique had nearly always played in that role ahead of him.

 

[devilish]

Agreed

Seconded.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Seconded.

 

[golden_blunder]

again, im not arguing that IF mickey leaves, we should try and bring another body in

what I am arguing about is the names that Dev keeps throwing in; Chivu, samuel, metzelder

If he thinks that they are going to come and sit on the bench in rainy Manchester, with Rio and Vidic ahead of them (arguably the best CB partnership in World Football) he needs his head looked at

 

[Brwned]

again, im not arguing that IF mickey leaves, we should try and bring another body in

what I am arguing about is the names that Dev keeps throwing in; Chivu, samuel, metzelder

If he thinks that they are going to come and sit on the bench in rainy Manchester, with Rio and Vidic ahead of them (arguably the best CB partnership in World Football) he needs his head looked at

Agreed. If Silvestre leaves we will need cover, but he is severely underrating our current defensive cover and to be honest there will be very few players that will happily sit on the bench since Vidic and Rio are very good injury-wise. If an experienced player pops up I'll happily take him though.

 

[devilish]

again, im not arguing that IF mickey leaves, we should try and bring another body in

what I am arguing about is the names that Dev keeps throwing in; Chivu, samuel, metzelder

If he thinks that they are going to come and sit on the bench in rainy Manchester, with Rio and Vidic ahead of them (arguably the best CB partnership in World Football) he needs his head looked at

Golden you misunderstood me. Ive mentioned Inter's, Chelsea's and Real's second string JUST because someone said that the only way for a club like Manchester United to have backup is to rely on homegrown players like OShea and Simpson. Ive never said that we should spend some 15m on Chivu. Quite contrary I believe that we should bring in a reliable and experienced defender on cheap (same as Ronnie Johnson was).

BTW if a good defender comes in our way he would be sitting on an already star studded bench next to Hargreaves/Carrick, Anderson, Nani/Giggs, Park and hopefully a good striker as well.

 

[Brwned]

Quite contrary I believe that we should bring in a reliable and experienced defender on cheap (same as Ronnie Johnson was).

That's all well and good saying that, but do you have any viable suggestions? Because if not then we will have to stick with what we have tbh.

 

[devilish]

That's all well and good saying that, but do you have any viable suggestions? Because if not then we will have to stick with what we have tbh.

I dont work as a scout so I wouldn't know what talent is available and at what price. What I can assure you is that you don't need to spend 10m for a decent defender. I mean, take our defense as an example. Apart from Rio none of our defenders had costed us 10m, and we are talking here about great defenders such as Vidic and Evra. You do find good defenders at reasonable prices if you search for them.

 

[VoetbalWizard]

I dont work as a scout so I wouldn't know what talent is available and at what price. What I can assure you is that you don't need to spend 10m for a decent defender. I mean, take our defense as an example. Apart from Rio none of our defenders had costed us 10m, and we are talking here about great defenders such as Vidic and Evra. You do find good defenders at reasonable prices if you search for them.

would chiellini be willing to come to take his place?

 

[devilish]

would chiellini be willing to come to take his place?

Chiellini is a great talent who would seriously compete for Evra for a first team place. Juventus was close in selling him last season (Due to contract problems) but things had settled down and I doubt that they would sell him now. I dont see the need to spend that much for Mickey's successor.

 

[Lot 49]

The very fact that for many years SAF had always kept the OShea option (as central back) as the very last option says it all. Mickey, Vidic, Wes, Rio, Heinze and even Pique had nearly always played in that role ahead of him.

I want O'Shea as cover for the left back position.

 

[Lot 49]

I forgot about Vidic's injury, although against Roma we still didn't look like conceding at all plus we were still left with Brown and Rio in the middle, which is a handy pairing that comes close to Vidic and Rio (Rio is undeniably our most important defender too). We also had to fill in right-back position with Hargreaves, hence we couldn't use him in midfield which was quite disturbing seeing as we've paid 17 million for him to play there.

I don't think we would have coped without Vidic in Moscow though, he was immense there.

O'Shea can cover almost every position on the pitch, although I wouldn't trust him in a crucial game regardless where he played. Obviously, he may have one or two very good games here and there, but generally he's been more of an utility player in his United career, used in crisis situation.

With our current personnel in defence minus Silvestre and Pique, he'd be used as a first substitute in many cases, which in my opinion is not going to do us any favours.

We need to improve.

If you don't even think O'Shea is good enough to be a "first substitute" then you must want him sold this summer right? If we sold him AND silvestre then yeah I'd want us to sign a new reserve left back but I can't see that happening. My argument is predicated on O'Shea being good to cover the left back position as he did last season.

 

[Sarni]

If you don't even think O'Shea is good enough to be a "first substitute" then you must want him sold this summer right? If we sold him AND silvestre then yeah I'd want us to sign a new reserve left back but I can't see that happening. My argument is predicated on O'Shea being good to cover the left back position as he did last season.

No, I don't think O'Shea should be the first substitute simply because he doesn't even have a constant position on the pitch, he's been moved around since 2003 and I wouldn't trust him entirely in an important game - especially against European top guns, in centre-back position.

I wouldn't have much problem with him on left side of the defence though, as he looked fine there when called upon. Problem is, if Silvestre goes, we will need a cover to the centre of defence as well, because Brown will most likely be used as a right-back again and that leaves us with Evans as the only cover.

You cannot count O'Shea as a back-up to every single position along the line, he could only cover one position at time.

I don't want O'Shea sold, why would I? Even if he's not a first substitute, he's a useful asset to have. In a perfect situation we'd have one cover for each position, but players get injured and even then he'd play about 20 games a season easily. How many times have we had both of our left-backs injured and had to play Richardson there in the past?

We'll actually have 7 defenders, because I wouldn't count on Simpson who hasn't done anything to suggest that he'd be ready to face strong teams and handle top European wingers. That's way too few for a team competing for the title AND the European Cup. If, for instance, Gary goes for a season again which might happen, we'll be left with 6 options.

Not enough, regardless of how good or bad O'Shea is. I thought we were short in defence last season as well, although with Pique's versatility and Rio being fit throughout the season we coped well.

Still, United's aim is to improve and another defender would bring a lot of confidence. If we lose two defenders and not replace them, we will get weaker, and why would anyone want us to do that?

 

[devilish]

I want O'Shea as cover for the left back position.

Oshea is not left footed + he would be a step down to what we had in the last few years (Heinze and Mickey had always been ahead of him in the pecking order). Stating that, Ill settle with that for the time being. OShea did well in that role during his first years and there is nothing wrong in giving him a second chance.

What Im concerned about is central back. If both Rio and Vidic are out we would have to choose two between Evans, Wes (whom considering Gaz's situation he may well be needed on the right rear flank) and OShea. That is in my opinion not good enough. You just cannot keep on dismantling the defense from its cover (Heinze, Pique and now Mickey) and bring in no one instead.

Let us not forget that without Mickey we will be having 7 defenders one of which, god knows whether he will ever be fit again (Gaz), That is simply not good enough.

 

[Lot 49]

words

Well then we're basically in agreement because I want Brown to go back to covering the centre back positions and a new right back to come in to succeed Neville.

Like I posted earlier in this thread.

[edit] This also applies to what devlish just posted as well. I agree that 7 defenders is not enough but the problem is the right back position which is independent, in my mind, from whether Silvestre goes or not. Neville needs to be replaced and it's hurting us having to take players from midfield (Hargreaves) and from the centre (Brown) to do so. If you think Brown is good enough to be the long term replacement for Neville then fine I could see the point in keeping Silvestre as cover for the centre back role but I don't which is why I don't see the point in keeping him.

 

[devilish]

Well then we're basically in agreement because I want Brown to go back to covering the centre back positions and a new right back to come in to succeed Neville.

Like I posted earlier in this thread.

Id love to see us sign a right back who can play as central back if needed.

 

[Sarni]

Well then we're basically in agreement because I want Brown to go back to covering the centre back positions and a new right back to come in to succeed Neville.

Like I posted earlier in this thread.

[edit] This also applies to what devlish just posted as well. I agree that 7 defenders is not enough but the problem is the right back position which is independent, in my mind, from whether Silvestre goes or not. Neville needs to be replaced and it's hurting us having to take players from midfield (Hargreaves) and from the centre (Brown) to do so. If you think Brown is good enough to be the long term replacement for Neville then fine I could see the point in keeping Silvestre as cover for the centre back role but I don't which is why I don't see the point in keeping him.

Fine enough, given the versatility of our current defenders any player to that department would improve us.

No, I don't think Brown is a good enough long term replacement, although he's a decent cover.

My point is, we need one more defender to play anywhere along the line, be it a left-back or a right-back. That would take the pressure of playing in two different position off some players.

 

[prateik]

he turned down Bordeaux

wages and wants to get a testimonial , that a 4m payday

so we mustve let him talk to blanc ..
didnt go to newcastle for 7m last season , doesnt want to go back to france for ~5m now ..
we're stuck with him

 

[friendlytramp]

he turned down Bordeaux

wages and wants to get a testimonial , that a 4m payday

so we mustve let him talk to blanc ..
didnt go to newcastle for 7m last season , doesnt want to go back to france for ~5m now ..
we're stuck with him

how much you get from your testimonial depends on how many folk turn up, someone should explain this to him

 

[Fergie's gum]

how much you get from your testimonial depends on how many folk turn up, someone should explain this to him

Don't be so feckin harsh.
The guy has been a great servant to the club. Admittedly had his ups and downs but, was always there when needed. Plus he's excellent cover for LB and CB positions when required, and will never grumble for being sat on the bench. He's the exact type of player we need as back-up. Versatile, experienced and dedicated. Now we probably let him talk to other teams as it is the least we could do after 10 years of service, but if he stays, it is to our advantage.

 

[Member 5225]

hmmm - what a shallow player...cares about the money more than his footballing career...

 

[prateik]

or maybe he loves it at united and doesnt want to leave ..

brown wasnt much of a starter (last season was an exception) , he signed on ..

brown , since 98 , has had 304 appearances .
silvestre (being injured for most of the last 2 seasons) has had 361 appearances and he joined in 99

tweety is great

 

[cesc's_mullet]

If ol' kidney-head goes Plech 'n Brad will lose half their material.

 

[Kelvin]

I have no problem with him staying.