None of the players we've been linked to are like that though?
Signing low-profile British-Irish potential
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Maybe these are the type of players Ole is aware of. His knowledge of potential in the continent that is good enough for us would be fairly low considering the type of players he looked at Molde.
Us letting every manager get his own players without having any long term philosophy got us in this mess. I hope we are not making the same mistake again.
Us letting every manager get his own players without having any long term philosophy got us in this mess. I hope we are not making the same mistake again.
The problem with getting rid of Lingard, Jones and Young is that you have to have someone ready to buy them and we don't.
Ideally we'd have just run down contracts and shown them the door but alas, we didn't. That needs to be addressed first because there ain't gonna be anyone in the market for any of our English players aside from Rashford and tbh he can feck off too.
This. We need players who want to play for the club as a pose to them coming to the club because we out bid everyone else.
The big difference from 2019 compared to say 2000-2015 is that now some of the biggest talents in the World are found in the UK - Before, they were not
We shouldn't be signing anyone because of their Nationality. We should be signing:-
- The best of the Premier League. Weakens our opponents whilst strengthens us. (RVP, Cantona, Cole, Sheringham, Rooney, Berbatov, etc).
- Underrated, but proven, Premier League players. Need at least 5 years left in their tanks, but proven at this level. (Valencia, Carrick, VDS, etc).
- The best up and coming players we can find abroad. They may work out. They may not. But if 50% of them do, and we pay pennies in the pound for what they will eventually be worth, it's totally worth it. (Ronaldo, Fabio, Rafael, Anderson, Nani, etc).
- The best hidden gems abroad (Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, etc)
It's never really been worth buying foreign superstars for us. Partly because they won't come (Ronaldinho), partly because they might not be as good in a high tempo league (Veron, Di Maria), partly because they might just not be as good as we hope.
Based on those criteria, it's going to be a difficult summer for us. The big 5 aren't going to be selling to us. Philippe Coutinho is available and could be a good signing, but will probably go to PSG or Liverpool over us. Matthijs de Ligt would be a good signing, but again might choose city, Barcelona or just to stay at Ajax.
Players like Nicolas Pepe are a good shout. Not necessarily needed or being pursued by the English big 5 or the big 6 abroad.
Aside from that.. who knows?
- The best of the Premier League. Weakens our opponents whilst strengthens us. (RVP, Cantona, Cole, Sheringham, Rooney, Berbatov, etc).
- Underrated, but proven, Premier League players. Need at least 5 years left in their tanks, but proven at this level. (Valencia, Carrick, VDS, etc).
- The best up and coming players we can find abroad. They may work out. They may not. But if 50% of them do, and we pay pennies in the pound for what they will eventually be worth, it's totally worth it. (Ronaldo, Fabio, Rafael, Anderson, Nani, etc).
- The best hidden gems abroad (Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, etc)
It's never really been worth buying foreign superstars for us. Partly because they won't come (Ronaldinho), partly because they might not be as good in a high tempo league (Veron, Di Maria), partly because they might just not be as good as we hope.
Based on those criteria, it's going to be a difficult summer for us. The big 5 aren't going to be selling to us. Philippe Coutinho is available and could be a good signing, but will probably go to PSG or Liverpool over us. Matthijs de Ligt would be a good signing, but again might choose city, Barcelona or just to stay at Ajax.
Players like Nicolas Pepe are a good shout. Not necessarily needed or being pursued by the English big 5 or the big 6 abroad.
Aside from that.. who knows?
You'd have to be 5 years old in 1999 to be 25 now. It was literally 20 years ago. For most young players, the only time they saw Manchester United be the best team in Europe was 2008.
I just think it's daft. People seem to think established players only want to come to us to retire. Our transfer business has been atrocious in recent years. We've signed the wrong type of players for managers, we've signed past it players, we've signed excellent players and not utilised them properly, it's got people clutching at straws.
wtf?
I thought the OP was focused on low profile success stories and young players within the last 25 years. Going by young and 'proper' success stories, you would have to eliminate all of these players. Irwin was 25 when united signed him in 1990 and he already had 239 senior appearances, playing in two major cup finals. David May was a first team regular for a Blackburn Rovers team that finished as runners up to United in 93/94 before he signed at 24 the season after, with 123 first team apps. Lee Martin started his career in United's youth ranks
I just know the people who are pushing the Brexit United strategy will disown the strategy by December when it’s obvious it failed. Ole will get blamed and will be the fall guy. And Ed will be accused of having brainchilded this strategy. As usual, the real intellectual authors of the strategy will switch gears, disown the strategy, and pretend they never pushed for it.
You know they're not first team players..........right?
I think some of these signings or the strategy will work if it's supposed to be a long term plan. I don't expect much next season for a variety of reasons. Looking at this squad, the only ones I would 100% keep are Scott, Lindelof, Dalot and Rashford. They are not amazing players either, but clearly have drive and are bursting with potential. If some of these British players we are targeting can be the bench players that push the first eleven then I think it's a good step. Similar to what Scott McTominay has done. He is not an outstanding player, but clearly a good one with an impeccable attitude and mentality. Filling the entire squad with this is not the answer but clearly these players need to be the Darmian's of this squad... rather than Darmian for example.
If you look at the players I named, Rashford and Scott have been with the club for years. Dalot and Lindelof are two players Jose knew of because of his links in Portugal. I'd wager that he was told that these players are grounded, and willing to work and fight to become better. Which is what the minimum standard should be. These players are driven. Our recruitment has been bad for a long time and I think this has something to do with it. Fletcher recommending the lad at Stoke is an example of some things we should be doing more of, rather than eating out of the hands of agents who do not want the best for this club.
Hopefully Butt is heavily involved, I trust him more than most at this club.
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We bought Ronaldo for £13 million. He was eventually worth £80 million when we sold him, and probably 3 times as much a few years later.
We bought Nani for €25m. He probably was never worth too much more than what we bought him for, but he had the potential to be.
You are right, we overpaid for Anderson.
Problem with this kind of policy is that English clubs are so relatively wealthy, that they will ask a pretty penny for any promising player they might have. Even Championship sides will not sell cheap to us. And scouting has gotten a lot better since our glory days in the 90's and 00's so finding diamonds in the rough will not be so easy.
I think our net should be spread all over northern Europe
I think our net should be spread all over northern Europe
We havent even signed one yet and people are complaining
Jamesy——Rashy——Gwoody
——Longstaff-McTominay
—————-Garner
Shaw-Collins-Tuanzebe-AWB
—————-Deano
You tell me what doesn’t work.
——Longstaff-McTominay
—————-Garner
Shaw-Collins-Tuanzebe-AWB
—————-Deano
You tell me what doesn’t work.
At the risk of not getting the jist of the thread, I'd say just do everything in moderation, a couple of young British kids - Sessegnon, James, a couple of up and coming European kids - Pepe, Tielemans, and a couple of established players - Koulibaly, Fernandes, or similar will do nicely, it doesn't have to be one way only, just sign the best players available with this sort of approach.
So if these are not first team players, then what is the strategy to fix our first team? It needs fixing, you know: RB, MF, RW, ST at the very least.
I think this is vital. We all go for these Portuguese and Spanish players or target them when English Irish players can do a good job for us if we raise them to play football that United and its managers want to.
Whilst I do like it when we target a very technical CAM or CF for example from a country because maybe the homegrown lads are not the most technically gifted (not true these days) - I look at RB's for example and think the English or Irish lads can do the job that other countries players could do to the same potential or better. Same with anchor men and certain positions. Is it so hard to find a Carrick or a Hargreaves? Do we need players from other countries? Not all that much.
Whilst I do like it when we target a very technical CAM or CF for example from a country because maybe the homegrown lads are not the most technically gifted (not true these days) - I look at RB's for example and think the English or Irish lads can do the job that other countries players could do to the same potential or better. Same with anchor men and certain positions. Is it so hard to find a Carrick or a Hargreaves? Do we need players from other countries? Not all that much.
I am sure they're working on those targets. As stupid as we've been over the years, we're not that stupid to put a team of 17/18 years olds in the premier league.
Well they had to go to Germany find Hargreaves.
Do you think Molde can attract the same players as United? He had to look for players he thought would want to play for Molde.
Just imagine how much knowledge about players some on here claim to have, why wouldn't Solskjær have the same? He's even admitted to be adicted to FM.
I mean sure but Sancho and Dier are not bad players either & whilst they may be at other Leagues to show their ability - I think we underestimate homegrown capability.
I look at the 2 UCL's SAF won & both had our class of Welsh, Irish & English players that stayed for 20 years. Whilst we may go around say that these guys were legends and couldn't be repeated - I don't think that's the case; it can be repeated atleast to a worthwhile degree. On the other hand people say the English players are overrated and usually overpriced - but ultimately in football you can only beat what is in front of you & the homegrown players have arguably proven to do that just as much as the rest.
Robertson for Liverpool is the perfect example. Came there with people not thinking such a big deal but he is producing for Liverpool whilst beating what's in front of him. Alexander Arnold is another & maybe even Joe Gomes.
Footballers are ultimately human and whilst some start in the most ideal position before behind chucked out at a club like ours; another player maybe at a rubbish club and not be target like a top club like ours. CBj is one of the main ones that irritated me - nearly every game at United he was great to watch, hardly got done defensively whilst having a good and scary attacking ability - he got chucked out by Jose without a chance & now struggles at scunthorpe. Whilst some may say he isn't good enough for us because he isn't good enough for scunthorpe - that's far from what I saw when I saw him play in his zone with other good players around him.
Ultimately as much as clubs like City or Chelsea go with minimal English players through a season - why do these players like Terry, Ashley Cole, Scholes, Giggs, Butt, Carrick all come from and create this long term family type settlement at their clubs? It's because they are English or Irish or Welsh & I think that is a underrated aspect to the game.
Barcelona with Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Busquets, Puyol, Pique added with Villa etc may be easily better than all the rest of the players - but ultimately you felt a family club aspect when everyone was playing together. I don't mind seeing that.
Makes sense to sign UK lads at this point because the upcoming generations are hugely talented. Same thing goes for the Dutch and French talents. UK lads are more likely to be United fans and will fit in culture wise while the Dutch lads are usually very down to earth and mature (De Ligt, Van de Beek). Not sure about the French.
Hard Brexit leave means leave united
Yes, we have been stupid. But stupidity is easier to see in retrospect.
Some of the players who have been at the heart of defining our club culture have been French: Cantona, Evra.
I don’t think UK lads have any particular advantage in terms of getting their head down and having a good attitude. We should be looking for talent, not nationality.
I'd happily see 4 of the 6 first team squad UK players never play for the club again.
I don't care about any nationality just whether they have the required level of football ability for us to be relevant again.
I meant I'm not sure about the upcoming generation of French players. Don't know enough about them. I'm not disputing that we've had excellent French players in the past. Yes, we should obviously be looking for talent, but we shouldn't ignore stuff like personality, attitude, language, cultural attributes. A Dutch player for example will generally have less trouble adjusting than say a south american or even a Spanish player.
Keane broke the British transfer record and Irwin was brought in for £625,000 in 1990 - hardly modest fee at the time, even more so Bruce for £800,000 in 87. Pallister broke the England record for defender,whilst Ince was brought in for 1m in 89.
Not to mention Fergie again paying record fee for Andy Cole in 97.
Generally all those transfers that came good for United during those years we paid top dollar for it.
I think we are doing this to fill out our squad, moreso than just signing these players. I do not think anyone expects Daniel James to start for us next season, we have poor depth, and if we can sign hungry skilled low profile players to develop and compete with the first team, that would be nice.
It's weird to say, but we also need strong voices that care about utd in the dressing room. The problem with having too many foreign talents, particularly from hispanic countries, is that they don't seem to fully understand how big this club really is. If you have a long term manager like wenger that can set the identity, its easier, but even he needed players like Adams, Keown, Bould, Winterburn, Parlour and Dixon to create that understanding. We do not have this at utd anymore, and we need to get it back. This may mean it costing us money in the transfer market, as we do need quality, dealing with the likes of west ham, leicester or Bournemouth, but I feel it will be worth it in the long run.
It's weird to say, but we also need strong voices that care about utd in the dressing room. The problem with having too many foreign talents, particularly from hispanic countries, is that they don't seem to fully understand how big this club really is. If you have a long term manager like wenger that can set the identity, its easier, but even he needed players like Adams, Keown, Bould, Winterburn, Parlour and Dixon to create that understanding. We do not have this at utd anymore, and we need to get it back. This may mean it costing us money in the transfer market, as we do need quality, dealing with the likes of west ham, leicester or Bournemouth, but I feel it will be worth it in the long run.
British football is on the rise and there are very good talents out there. Sign them up.
I agree. I made the same point some time ago. I want United to sign quality talent regardless of nationality.
We've got to stop looking at trying to repeat Fergies successful strategies from the late 1980's 1990's. Things have moved on! We have to start building a modern, cutting edge football club with a modern team. Nationality doesn't matter.
Not many of that list really established themselves though.
Bruce, Pallister, Phelan, Parker from the championship, then division one, are a few more who did establish themselves. I say this but can’t be sure these were all championship and not top flight when we signed them but even so they were unfashionable purchases at the time.
These calibre players will still be about nowadays it’s just not become fashionable to shop there. Of all the players being mentioned the ones that excite me the most are references to British players like James, Longstaff, Sessegnon, Godfrey. A batch at once this would be real throwback signings to a previous era.
This would border on discrimination. These factors haven't prevented several players from having successful careers in the PL. The PL also has a plethora of success stories of players from Spain and other Spanish speaking countries, maybe even more than the Dutch and Scandinavian countries especially more recently.
This. Looking at the players we're being linked with, not a single one seems to have any kind of outstanding technical ability, they are underwhelming but I guess they are 'hard workers' and 'fighters'. Those claims can't even be verified as most people here haven't watched them week in week out.
Bruce was Norwich City's captain and player of the year before United signed him. Norwich played in the old first division when he was signed, top flight football. He was 27 when he joined United with 417 senior appearances (127 in top flight football) and regarded as one of the best players in the league. Pallister was 24 when he joined United from first division Middlesbrough in 1989 (also top flight then) and his transfer fee of 2.3 M was a record for a defender and second highest fee ever paid between British clubs, only Ian Rush's return to Liverpool involved a higher transfer fee.
Pallister also played for England before United signed him. Phelan was captain for Norwich after Steve Bruce left and they finished 4th in division one with him as captain. He had 324 senior appearances at age 25 when he signed for United and also had an England call up while at Norwich. Parker was 27 when he signed for United with 278 senior appearances and he was signed from QPR who were in the old first division. He was signed the last season of the old first division
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Just shows how the Glazers have managed to turn UNited into a club expecting to win nothing. I hate those guys.
I agree with the sentiment of your post. In some cases it was obvious we should have been buying some of these players. However, on the flipside, it's easy to point to players who have been a success (hindsight) and forget teams buying players who seemed bargains at the time and have failed. We hardly hear about such failures. It's also worth pointing out some players you mention who have excelled at other clubs might not have had the same success at United due to a host of reasons. Styles of play, management, etc.
I think the most obvious available players United should have purchased were Maguire, Kante, Mahrez over the last few seasons. Positions we have been desperate to fill for a number of seasons.
Not sure about Mahrez. You can add Robertson to that list though.