Signing low-profile British-Irish potential

[dogwithabone]

This would border on discrimination. These factors haven't prevented several players from having successful careers in the PL. The PL also has a plethora of success stories of players from Spain and other Spanish speaking countries, maybe even more than the Dutch and Scandinavian countries especially more recently.



This. Looking at the players we're being linked with, not a single one seems to have any kind of outstanding technical ability, they are underwhelming but I guess they are 'hard workers' and 'fighters'. Those claims can't even be verified as most people here haven't watched them week in week out.



Bruce was Norwich City's captain and player of the year before United signed him. Norwich played in the old first division when he was signed, top flight football. He was 27 when he joined United with 417 senior appearances (127 in top flight football) and regarded as one of the best players in the league. Pallister was 24 when he joined United from first division Middlesbrough in 1989 (also top flight then) and his transfer fee of 2.3 M was a record for a defender and second highest fee ever paid between British clubs, only Ian Rush's return to Liverpool involved a higher transfer fee.

Pallister also played for England before United signed him. Phelan was captain for Norwich after Steve Bruce left and they finished 4th in division one with him as captain. He had 324 senior appearances at age 25 when he signed for United and also had an England call up while at Norwich. Parker was 27 when he signed for United with 278 senior appearances and he was signed from QPR who were in the old first division. He was signed the last season of the old first division

Thanks for correcting me !

Ok, so they were top flight but I guess my point is would Mourinho or LVG, for example, have built a team around players entirely from these less fashionable teams ? Are Darmian, Rojo, Bailly etc really any better than players we could have picked up from modern day Norwich’s, Middlesbrough’s or QPR’s ?

I think Ole is right in trying to get back to this model and while it will need to be spiced up with obvious quality from the continent an English/British core will give you an honesty and willingness not always found in foreigners who are short of being among the very best.

 

[Loublaze]

Thanks for correcting me !

Ok, so they were top flight but I guess my point is would Mourinho or LVG, for example, have built a team around players entirely from these less fashionable teams ? Are Darmian, Rojo, Bailly etc really any better than players we could have picked up from modern day Norwich’s, Middlesbrough’s or QPR’s ?

I think Ole is right in trying to get back to this model and while it will need to be spiced up with obvious quality from the continent an English/British core will give you an honesty and willingness not always found in foreigners who are short of being among the very best.

I can't disagree with that, I just hope we find real quality players and not like for likes of players we already have in the youth setup who could be given chances.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Wasn't Jones high-profile at the time when we get him?
Smalling was the lower profile player back then.

---

*Only counting some British-Irish players that are close to prime age, and youngsters. They all had potentials to improve. Maybe I remember wrongly some of these players.*

High Profile (highly rated when we get them)
Roy Keane
Wayne Rooney
Rio Ferdinand
Gary Pallister
Luke Shaw
Phil Jones

Med Profile (established themselves already in some sort but not in demand)
Alan Smith
Ben Foster
Chris Smalling
Wilfred Zaha
Michael Carrick
Owen Hargreaves
Ashley Young

Low Profile (seriously who?)
Liam Miller
Luke Steele
Kieran Richardson
Lee Martin
Jonathan Greening
Nick Powell

---

Why is it a "Fergie-type of signing"?
Just curious, since looking at his many signings, doesn't seem nationality is important, he literally get all kind of players with different nationalities.

 

[Fox outside the box]

As much as it pains me to say, Liverpool have been doing this for a while now and done well with it. Forget labels such as 'British' or 'South American' even 'Galactico' not working. There isn't any point in taking a blanket approach. If a player fits the profile of what you want, that's more important.

There are plenty of slightly lower key signings that can make a difference. Players like Robertson, Milner, Wijnaldum, Henderson have all had their time being mocked for being signed and rarely ever stated as the sort of player we would ever want but they've signed players with a skill set and attitude that matches what they want from a player and it can be very successful.

There is certainly value to be had from lower profile signings.

 

[Rozay]

If two players are somewhat equal in talent and price, then I would go for a British player. If not, go for the best.

If you look at teams like Bayern and Juve, these great players that we come up against in the CL were largely procured from the likes of Schalke, Stuttgart, Bremen or Brescia, Cagliari, Sassuolo etc. In an era where England are producing talent on a par to any, there’s no harm in picking up the best here, and being an English version of Bayern, supplementing ourselves with some top foreign imports.

Players like Lahm, Goretzka, Boateng (Hamburg via City I know), Neuer - these have formed a great nucleus for Bayern, bought from smaller German clubs, and who form an identity for them. They actually produce very few top class German players themselves in their own right, only Schweinsteiger and Kimmich in recent times (Hummels too if you want to trace his career all the way back). Juve adopt a similar model in Italy. I’d be fine with us doing something similar, it provides a stability within the squad, a ‘settledness’ and identity. By all means, bring in a De Ligt or a Thiago etc, but those players will come and be taught by those already here what it means to be a Manchester United player. They will not be expected to come here and teach those already here what it means! And that’s our position currently.

Right now we are still looking to former players to describe what it means to play for United. Nobody currently here seems to be able to grasp it.

 

[johanovic]

Signing Bissaka,Sancho,Longstaff,Rice,James and Sessangon + give Gomes,Garner,Greenwood,Laird and Chong a crack would give the club a young and hungry core croup of young players. Added bonus of that is to put pressure on players like Martial that have all the talent needed but are not giving a good effort to put it mildly. Keep Shaw, De Gea (hopefully), Pogba,Rashford,Lindelof, Smalling,Tuanzebe,McTominay.
De Light would be a incredible signing as the boy is a pure leader plus being a really good defender. Then United could sign 1 or 2 stars that fit into the club to supplement this young base of players.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I would not put them all in the same category. Sancho was one of the best players in the Bundesliga as a teenager. Wan Bissaka was one of the best RBs in the league at 21 this season he is a no brainer. Sessegnon had a rough season with dysfunctional Fulham side but, he would have been a no brainer a summer ago. I do not rate Rice as much as some here do but, he at least became a key player for a decent West Ham side. With James and Longstaff we would be better off promoting Chong and Garner instead of signing them.

 

[manunited1919]

This whole strategy of buying young unproven British players is a recipe for disaster. The last time I felt this way about our club we had just appointed David Moyes as manager. Now we are trying to buy players using the same mindset which lead us to appoint Moyes manager 6 years ago: sentimentality, admiration for hard work, same nationality as SAF, but total disregard to his qualifications, experience at a high level, competence as a manager, and trophies won.

Of course, Ed loves the strategy as it is low cost low risk, and it allows him to keep at least part of the fan base in a state of delusion.

 

[Tiber]

Maybe these are the type of players Ole is aware of. His knowledge of potential in the continent that is good enough for us would be fairly low considering the type of players he looked at Molde.
Us letting every manager get his own players without having any long term philosophy got us in this mess. I hope we are not making the same mistake again.

At Molde Ole had as much chance of signing young premier league players like Longstaff from Newcastle as he did of getting Ronaldo from Madrid. Weird that he so exclusively scouted this type of player then

 

[golden_blunder]

I would not put them all in the same category. Sancho was one of the best players in the Bundesliga as a teenager. Wan Bissaka was one of the best RBs in the league at 21 this season he is a no brainer. Sessegnon had a rough season with dysfunctional Fulham side but, he would have been a no brainer a summer ago. I do not rate Rice as much as some here do but, he at least became a key player for a decent West Ham side. With James and Longstaff we would be better off promoting Chong and Garner instead of signing them.

James offers something we don’t have in the squad - insane pace. It’s a great asset to have. I think he will surprise some people

 

[Kill 'em all]

Collins, Lonstaff, James. Aren't these the kind of signings you expect from lower table clubs?

I think its good to sign such players but we also need quality to improve the starting 11.

 

[Lennon7]

I think it's because we

Collins, Lonstaff, James. Aren't these the kind of signings you expect from lower table clubs?

I think its good to sign such players but we also need quality to improve the starting 11.

Aged 18, 21 and 21. A combined reported cost of £47m, which for 3 players now a days is feck all. You couldn’t even get Wan-Bisakka for that based on reports. There’s really not much to complain about.

You’d hope we’ve done proper scouting like a club our size should be doing and they’re class little players. Otherwise it’s pointless. And I believe we’ll be getting in proven talent.

 

[DSG]

Is the buying of UK players as a hedge against what will happen after Brexit regarding work permits. Particularly young talent?

Though on second thought, why wouldn’t they be stocking up on young foreign players NOW and get their work permits before any issues with Brexit change the environment??

Another possibility is that they want to move on / sell British players like Smalling, Jones, Young, but cannot due to the homegrown players rule. Buying young homegrown talent and parking them in the first team as squad players would allow us to do so. With McTominay, we’ve got 8 of 25 now, but Lee Grant is leaving, yes? Young only has one year left, we promote Greenwood, but who knows if Tuanzebe and Gomes, Garner will make the first squad?

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Is the buying of UK players as a hedge against what will happen after Brexit regarding work permits. Particularly young talent?

Though on second thought, why wouldn’t they be stocking up on young foreign players NOW and get their work permits before any issues with Brexit change the environment??

Another possibility is that they want to move on / sell British players like Smalling, Jones, Young, but cannot due to the homegrown players rule. Buying young homegrown talent and parking them in the first team as squad players would allow us to do so. With McTominay, we’ve got 8 of 25 now, but Lee Grant is leaving, yes? Young only has one year left, we promote Greenwood, but who knows if Tuanzebe and Gomes, Garner will make the first squad?

Im not really that good with politics. How is brexit going to effect the PL?

 

[DSG]

Im not really that good with politics. How is brexit going to effect the PL?

Currently part of the EU, work permits are easy for youngsters to obtain. Post Brexit, players from EU countries may not be guaranteed a work permit. That’s my understanding, but maybe someone following it more closely has an alternate view...

 

[Kapardin]

James offers something we don’t have in the squad - insane pace. It’s a great asset to have. I think he will surprise some people

Yeah, his pace is extraordinary enough to consider his signing. I am not sold on Longstaff or Collins based on the little I have heard, but ok, let's see. Though I don't think we will sign all 3. Mostly likely, James is the only one we have made up our mind to buy and the others are probably part of a shortlist for those positions.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Currently part of the EU, work permits are easy for youngsters to obtain. Post Brexit, players from EU countries may not be guaranteed a work permit. That’s my understanding, but maybe someone following it more closely has an alternate view...

Ta mate

 

[golden_blunder]

Yeah, his pace is extraordinary enough to consider his signing. I am not sold on Longstaff or Collins based on the little I have heard, but ok, let's see. Though I don't think we will sign all 3. Mostly likely, James is the only one we have made up our mind to buy and the others are probably part of a shortlist for those positions.

I think Collins isn’t bought for the first team but to beef up our u23 squad for development. He’s only 17 so could be 3 years before he’s knocking on the first team door, IF he makes it that far

 

[golden_blunder]

Ta mate

That and quotas of British players will increase

According to that ITK post on Reddit, Nicky Butt says that it will be nearly impossible to sign young EU players after brexit.

 

[Tomuś]

Collins, Lonstaff, James. Aren't these the kind of signings you expect from lower table clubs?

I think its good to sign such players but we also need quality to improve the starting 11.

Yes but these are also the signings I expect us to rue not making if they become 50m players, complaining others are wiser than us. That saying they may all end up shite, you never know. What I do know is that James has pace. We don't. For that reason alone I won't turn a blind eye on him.

I think we should mix it. Sign 3 of them young players and 3/4 read-made top ones. Wan-Bissaka is ideal as he's both. We need at least a couple of WC players, too.

 

[Bilbo]

With all the links in recent weeks with the flood of young players, I often notice lots of comments like “love this type of signing”, “Fergie-type signing”, etc.

But how often have we actually made these type of signings, and how often have they worked out for us historically? I’m really struggling to think of one proper success story in the last 25 years. I don’t count the likes of Rio, Rooney or Shaw who were crazy expensive and well-established internationals (and Shaw hasn’t really worked anyway). When I think of these signings I’m thinking the likes of Smalling and Jones, part of the reason we are where we are.

Seems to me that most of the time when our younger, low-profile signings have succeeded, they’ve come from foreign leagues, while it’s when we’ve shopped at the top that we’ve succeeded with our domestic signings.

For me, its not about looking at what we HAVE signed and whether they have worked. We should be (and seemingly are) looking at all of the players that we HAVEN'T signed that have gone on to become huge players. Its a long list, and if we are looking into addressing that it can only be a good thing.

 

[DSG]

That and quotas of British players will increase

According to that ITK post on Reddit, Nicky Butt says that it will be nearly impossible to sign young EU players after brexit.

All the more reason to scoop up talented EU youngsters now IMHO.

Unfortunately, it looks as if we have hogtied ourselves with the lack of British players now to comply with the homegrown rule.

 

[Spiersey]

The players United have been linked with so far, I find quite frankly bizarre. It's the type of players a bottom half/mid table side would be linked with and certainly not one with any aspirations to be winning the league any time soon.

 

[George The Best]

The players United have been linked with so far, I find quite frankly bizarre. It's the type of players a bottom half/mid table side would be linked with and certainly not one with any aspirations to be winning the league any time soon.

This is a massive reality check for us though, isn’t it. We are just simply not well placed, at the moment, to attract the Superstars that may be available - unless we hugely overpay for them in transfer fees, agent fees and wages. That tactic has not gone well lately has it. We’ll likely buy a few ‘under the radar’ players in the hope we can develop them into something much better, but i’m pretty sure Ed will still want one marquee signing to boost shirt sales and profile. Will likely cost us a bomb though.

 

[Mainoldo]

Reminds me when Villa tries to sign cheap French and English players. Got them relegated but hey ho.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

Young'uns ... Nothing wrong with James. Anyone talking about signing superstars hasn't been paying attention.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

The players United have been linked with so far, I find quite frankly bizarre. It's the type of players a bottom half/mid table side would be linked with and certainly not one with any aspirations to be winning the league any time soon.

We don't have those aspirations. Our owners will try to scrape fourth on budget.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

I’m all for it, if they have the right quality and the mindset.
Everybody in and around the club (except for some fans) has realized that this process isn’t a short one, it will take a couple of season to get us back up there and hopefully the kids will step up by then, accompanied by 3-4 WC players.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

I think it's because we

Aged 18, 21 and 21. A combined reported cost of £47m, which for 3 players now a days is feck all. You couldn’t even get Wan-Bisakka for that based on reports. There’s really not much to complain about.

You’d hope we’ve done proper scouting like a club our size should be doing and they’re class little players. Otherwise it’s pointless. And I believe we’ll be getting in proven talent.

Rabiot, Toby and Meunier would cost that much....

 

[Lennon7]

Rabiot, Toby and Meunier would cost that much....

Toby’s got a low release clause for some reason. I doubt he’d come with much competition. Not sure about Rabiot, how much is he going for? And pretty sure Meunier would come at 30-40 mill unless he’s got a release clause.

 

[Thiagoal]

I would agree with you that under Ferguson we had success by buying the best British players for decent amounts and then looking for bargains from abroad.

That said I think it's a market we should be more active in and our bizarre policy of signing almost no British players since Ferguson retired has been a disaster. We bought Lindelof for £30m when Maguire was available for half that amount and is a better player. Last summer we bought Dalot for £20m when that money could have got us Wan-Bissaka who is now worth 3x that amount. We've needed a right wing for ages but let Bournemouth buy Brooks for £11m and then watched as he got more goals and assists than Mata and Lingard combined. Tottenham bought Dele Alli for £5m at around the same time we spent £90m on Pogba. Leicester got Maddison for £20m the summer we spent £50m on Fred.

We constantly miss out on bargains because we have preferred buying expensive foreign players over cheaper British players and it's high time we changed that.

Totally right and completely my view as well!

It was so bloody obvious that Maguire and Alli in particular were high quality players when they were at MK Dons and Hull. The ones we're being linked with I'm not so sure though...more of a punt in my opinion!

 

[Loublaze]

Reminds me when Villa tries to sign cheap French and English players. Got them relegated but hey ho.

Looks like we've just signed another soon to be failed winger. Looking forward to the RB conversion in a few seasons. The Welsh Valencia! Maybe im being too negative. Could be the 'next Bale' but I just don't see it

 

[DSG]

This is a massive reality check for us though, isn’t it. We are just simply not well placed, at the moment, to attract the Superstars that may be available - unless we hugely overpay for them in transfer fees, agent fees and wages. That tactic has not gone well lately has it. We’ll likely buy a few ‘under the radar’ players in the hope we can develop them into something much better, but i’m pretty sure Ed will still want one marquee signing to boost shirt sales and profile. Will likely cost us a bomb though.

I truly think these are signings to resolve our homegrown players issue.

It would be so disappointing, however, if these three were part of the “5 or 6” players brought in during the summer...

I do think that there is a significant amount set aside to back Ole, and I’d be surprised if we didn’t bring in 2 or 3 impact players....

 

[In Rainbows]

Why are people worried about the homegrown rule when we could use Greenwood, Gomes, Tuanzebe, and Garner?

I don't like this current strategy. It's fine to get 1 punt, but anything more and you're just wasting money when we already have alternatives at the club and we're in need of impact, not depth.

 

[DSG]

Why are people worried about the homegrown rule when we could use Greenwood, Gomes, Tuanzebe, and Garner?

I don't like this current strategy. It's fine to get 1 punt, but anything more and you're just wasting money when we already have alternatives at the club and we're in need of impact, not depth.

I’m not personally worried about it, but the club has to deal with those requirements and it’s hard to get rid of deadwood when you don’t have options.

Greenwood, yes. Tuanzebe, maybe. I don’t think Gomes makes the first team. Garner as well. But the natural move for both Garner and Gomes is to send them out on loan, which does not allow them to be counted as a homegrown player. That’s my understanding at least.

 

[lawliet354]

I would agree with you that under Ferguson we had success by buying the best British players for decent amounts and then looking for bargains from abroad.

That said I think it's a market we should be more active in and our bizarre policy of signing almost no British players since Ferguson retired has been a disaster. We bought Lindelof for £30m when Maguire was available for half that amount and is a better player. Last summer we bought Dalot for £20m when that money could have got us Wan-Bissaka who is now worth 3x that amount. We've needed a right wing for ages but let Bournemouth buy Brooks for £11m and then watched as he got more goals and assists than Mata and Lingard combined. Tottenham bought Dele Alli for £5m at around the same time we spent £90m on Pogba. Leicester got Maddison for £20m the summer we spent £50m on Fred.

We constantly miss out on bargains because we have preferred buying expensive foreign players over cheaper British players and it's high time we changed that.

And British player will rarely force a move to Barca/Real after successful couple of seasons

 

[Keeps It tidy]

And British player will rarely force a move to Barca/Real after successful couple of seasons

Sterling left Liverpool for City and Walker left Spurs for City so British players are not anymore loyal.

 

[lawliet354]

Sterling left Liverpool for City and Walker left Spurs for City so British players are not anymore loyal.

Well I specifically said they rarely move after being successful . Especially if they become champion in Manchester United, I don't think they'll force a move to other PL clubs

 

[Judas]

This place is pathetic. We look to be finally doing what many people on here have been crying out for, and now everyone’s fecking moaning some of you lot will just never be happy, it’s exhausting.

 

[In Rainbows]

I’m not personally worried about it, but the club has to deal with those requirements and it’s hard to get rid of deadwood when you don’t have options.

Greenwood, yes. Tuanzebe, maybe. I don’t think Gomes makes the first team. Garner as well. But the natural move for both Garner and Gomes is to send them out on loan, which does not allow them to be counted as a homegrown player. That’s my understanding at least.

I'm not going to argue against who you think won't make it, but if that's the case, why is Longstaff not viewed in the same manner? The difference between he and those others is that he would cost money.