Shakhtar Donetsk vs. Manchester United

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Brightonian said:
:lol: What? That's the opinion of someone who's been watching Evra for so long he's stopped noticing him. When he's playing well (which he has been for a few seasons now) half our attacks come through him. Aside from an in-form Nani, he's the best dribbler we have. Repeatedly drifts past a player or two on his forays forward.
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He's a great dribbler but he's not as effective going forward as he used to be, certainly he's not worth putting 3 in defense to give more freedom going forward!
 
Cina said:
Not really, we've massively lacked creativity too.
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Yeah, and not having functional full backs has been a massive part of the reason for that too. If the opposition don't have them to worry about they can work more on stifling our other creative outlets.

The fullbacks and Rio have been my biggest gripe by a mile this season.
 
In terms of going forward, for me Evra is just a ball carrier these days and nothing more..

A lot of forward play might go through him, but a lot of chances/goals don't seem to come from it and haven't for ages - but maybe that's more to do with the inefficiency of the wingers infront of him.

I didn't particularly feel that we needed Baines, mostly because of his age and the cost - but for me he is pretty close in ability to Evra in defense, but offers far far more going forward.
 
Fergus' son said:
Of course, it can't happen overnight and I'm not sure I'm entirely in favour of it myself, but what you described isn't far different from what I said apart from you'd rather Fellaini than Jones. The point is that the extra man in midfield can drop into cb when the full backs bomb forward to account for the 'inside' wide forwards. Leave it all up to Clev and Carrick plus two proper wide forwards (that have to stay out wide to maintain width) and we would struggle for creativity IMO.

------Smalling Jones Vidic------
Rafael ----------------------Evra
--------Carrick Cleverley-------
------------- Kagawa--------------
-------Rooney Van Perise-------

Is sort of of how I envisage it. Just a random thought really, not really advocating we use it any time soon.
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Let Jones concentrate on fighting for a position at centre back so he can master his trade there. He doesnt need the confusion of trying to play centre back whilst we are defending and playing midfield when we have the ball, neither do the rest of the team. They are struggling as it is with basics!

We are never going to play 3 centre backs with wing backs, the only systems we will play is 442 and 4231/451 or variations.
 
This season alone he has assisted RVP's goal in the community shield and Rooney's vs Leverkusen. He's been very good going forward at least
 
Cina said:
He's a great dribbler but he's not as effective going forward as he used to be, certainly he's not worth putting 3 in defense to give more freedom going forward!
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You dont have to put three in defence, just have someone thats capable of dropping in there when need be, playing at the base of a three man midfield.
 
Fergies Formula said:
Let Jones concentrate on fighting for a position at centre back so he can master his trade there. He doesnt need the confusion of trying to play centre back whilst we are defending and playing midfield when we have the ball, neither do the rest of the team. They are struggling as it is with basics!

We are never going to play 3 centre backs with wing backs, the only systems we will play is 442 and 4231/451 or variations.
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We played a diamond last year which isn't far off what I'm describing.

Anyway, forget it, you can't even discuss hypothetical situations on here without people having a good old moan about getting the basics right etc.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Yeah, and not having functional full backs has been a massive part of the reason for that too. If the opposition don't have them to worry about they can work more on stifling our other creative outlets.

The fullbacks and Rio have been my biggest gripe by a mile this season.
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I would have to agree with you on this, so much of the ball goes out wide and the full backs in jones/ smalling/ buttner have been wasteful. Moves break down with them and we cant get any fluidity and rhythm in our play. Its painful to watch.

Again Rio, I wouldn't be surprised if this is his last season, he has fallen from the massive heights where he used to stand and now is hampering us.
 
Fergies Formula said:
I would have to agree with you on this, so much of the ball goes out wide and the full backs in jones/ smalling/ buttner have been wasteful. Moves break down with them and we cant get any fluidity and rhythm in our play. Its painful to watch.

Again Rio, I wouldn't be surprised if this is his last season, he has fallen from the massive heights where he used to stand and now is hampering us.
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If it is a case that Rio is done I'd rather he do a Gary Neville and pull out now rather than taint our memories of him. That's 'if' he's done off course.
 
Fergus' son said:
We played a diamond last year which isn't far off what I'm describing.

Anyway, forget it, you can't even discuss hypothetical situations on here without people having a good old moan about getting the basics right etc.
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By all means go ahead and hypothesise but imo the reality is we have never played with a bank of 3 centre backs. I am just talking from a realistic point of view.

The diamond is still effectively a 4 man midfield.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Yeah, and not having functional full backs has been a massive part of the reason for that too. If the opposition don't have them to worry about they can work more on stifling our other creative outlets.

The fullbacks and Rio have been my biggest gripe by a mile this season.
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Aye, mine too, though it'd help if we played actual right backs at right back! I just don't think it's the main reason we're faltering at times, against West Brom for example we didn't look like we could create a thing in that second half.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
If it is a case that Rio is done I'd rather he do a Gary Neville and pull out now rather than taint our memories of him. That's 'if' he's done off course.
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To be fair, there was a lot of talk of him being 'done' after we lost at home to Spurs last season too. In saying that, I don't think I've ever seen him as poor as he is now though.
 
Fergies Formula said:
By all means go ahead and hypothesise but imo the reality is we have never played with a bank of 3 centre backs. I am just talking from a realistic point of view.

The diamond is still effectively a 4 man midfield.
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Call it a diamond then:

Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
-------------Jones-----------
-- ---Carrick Cleverley------
-------------Kagawa-----------
-------Rooney Van Persie----

Really isn't all that different to what I described but there is an argument to perhaps swap Jones and Carrick.
 
Cina said:
Aye, mine too, though it'd help if we played actual right backs at right back! I just don't think it's the main reason we're faltering at times, against West Brom for example we didn't look like we could create a thing in that second half.
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Yep, but do you think we would have been as stale if we had Fab/Raf on the right and Evra on the left? I honestly think we would have comfortably won that game if we had.

Shark22 said:
To be fair, there was a lot of talk of him being 'done' after we lost at home to Spurs last season too. In saying that, I don't think I've ever seen him as poor as he is now though.
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Yeah. I'm hoping that I'm being dramatic but it's a fairly prolonged period of really really bad errors in every game.
 
Cina said:
He's a great dribbler but he's not as effective going forward as he used to be, certainly he's not worth putting 3 in defense to give more freedom going forward!
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Well, I agree about the three-man defence thing, mostly because I think it's a terrible idea on its own merits. My point is that Evra offers plenty to our attack with things as they are, not that we should try and maximise that or anything with three CBs.
 
Fergus' son said:
Call it a diamond then:

Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
-------------Jones-----------
-- ---Carrick Cleverley------
-------------Kagawa-----------
-------Rooney Van Persie----

Really isn't all that different to what I described but there is an argument to perhaps swap Jones and Carrick.
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I think the main difference between what you originally suggested and other people's alternatives (mine certainly) is the thing of Jones 'dropping into central defence' when the FBs bomb forwards. For me there's a big difference between a disciplined DM and a DM who actually drops into defence. The former is probably the right thing to do, whilst the latter is an overworked strategy which is more likely to cause problems than improve us. And if you decide to go with the former (a positionally disciplined DM playing behind two other CMs), then Fellaini is a much, much better option than Jones.
 
Kid Cunto said:
He's hardly been amazing this season, deserves a rest too.

Cleverley deserves a chance also. And Fellaini for stability.
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I think he's been good. A bad start by the team doesn't mean that all our players have been bad. He's certainly been our best midfielder so far. Resting players is important but we need to win a game right now to avoid a serious slide in confidence and cut short all the silly crisis talk.
 
Brightonian said:
I think he's been good. A bad start by the team doesn't mean that all our players have been bad. He's certainly been our best midfielder so far. Resting players is important but we need to win a game right now to avoid a serious slide in confidence and cut short all the silly crisis talk.
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Thats not much of a compliment to be fair.

He's not been terrible or anything, but I certainly think Carrick has been way below the standard we've come to expect over the past two years
 
NoArroJusBeta said:
-------------DDG-------------
Rafael----Evans---Vidic----Evra
--Carrick---Fellaini---Cleverly--
Nani---------RVP--------Rooney

Bench: Lindegaard, Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Kagawa, Hernandez, Welbeck
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This is currently our best lineup IMO. Not just away in the CL, but anywhere including Old Trafford.
 
Whilst I wouldn't be against using Rooney out wide more... I can't see it happening. Moyes seems too intent on wanting to cater to his every need then to play him out of position.
 
Must say I'm not confident at all going into this. In current form I can only seeing us getting beat. Draw would be a very decent result.
 
1-1 id say. us leading for a spell and them pegging us back. its the kind of result weve seen alot in the past when we think we're about to emerge from a poor spell of form.

van persie for us, some brazilian for them.

i think he'll go de gea, rafael, vidic, evans, evra, carrick, fellaini, cleverley, nani, rooney, van persie.

id go:

..................de gea............

rafael.....evans....vidic.....evra..

..................fellaini..............
........carrick..............cleverley...

..................rooney..............

..........hernandez......rvp..........

just to show some sense of confidence and aim to win. probably not a game for gambles though
 
SER19 said:
1-1 id say. us leading for a spell and them pegging us back. its the kind of result weve seen alot in the past when we think we're about to emerge from a poor spell of form.

van persie for us, some brazilian for them.

i think he'll go de gea, rafael, vidic, evans, evra, carrick, fellaini, cleverley, nani, rooney, van persie.

id go:

..................de gea............

rafael.....evans....vidic.....evra..

..................fellaini..............
........carrick..............cleverley...

..................rooney..............

..........hernandez......rvp..........

just to show some sense of confidence and aim to win. probably not a game for gambles though
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4312 is so rarely used at the top level that I'm hesitant to agree with you. But it looks like a really strong team, especially if you sub in Kagawa for Cleverley. However, it leaves out Nani and asks us to play football in a very different way.
 
Never been beaten by an English side at home . Think we'll at most get a draw.
 
gooDevil said:
4312 is so rarely used at the top level that I'm hesitant to agree with you. But it looks like a really strong team, especially if you sub in Kagawa for Cleverley. However, it leaves out Nani and asks us to play football in a very different way.
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thats true. the only reason id be inclined to is we simply do not have wingers good enough bar nani. width provided by rafael and evra and in very advanced positions a front three of hernandez,rooney and rvp
 
The past few days have been pretty dire, especially with some of the OTT reactions from the media and our own fans. Would be great to kick start our season with a solid display (and hopefully 3 points) in what is sure to be a very tough match.
 
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