Sergio Ramos

Ramos is a wonderful footballer, a great leader, and has come up with some big goals for Real Madrid over the years. There's only one problem. He's a horrible defender. Probably one of the most overrated defenders to ever play the game. Constantly caught out of position and overly agressive/dirty. I've always thought he should be a DM. He has the ability to play in midfield and then when he does get forward it wouldn't hurt his team as much as it does when he's in central defense...
 
Rating him as a defender.

As a score of important goals I acknowledge he has a nice streak going but there's way more to a player than that.

Think it's case of considering the whole package - is he as good in the air as peak Terry? Tactically strong as Maldinni? Composed as Rio? He's arguably not but all round, he's an 8/10 at everything which makes him a very complete player. Sure, he can be too aggressive but part of that is what makes him a great CB.
 
He's having a bad streak. I'm sure he will not disappoint Conte.
An authoritative figure may be good for him to relax a bit and focus on football.
 
If anyone deserves a thread bump for being in horrible form it's Varane, not Ramos.
 
Has Real ever been known for their amazing defense? They just outscored their opponents didnt they? I won't deny part of me doesnt rate Ramos because he's a cnut, but as a defender I think he has no business being called one of the best in the world. Top 15? sure, top 3? Hell no.
 
He's having a bad streak. I'm sure he will not disappoint Conte.
An authoritative figure may be good for him to relax a bit and focus on football.
:lol::lol::lol:

More likely they'll come to blows within the first 3 days and he'll get benched for good, until Flo sacks Conte at the end of the season
 
Has Real ever been known for their amazing defense? They just outscored their opponents didnt they? I won't deny part of me doesnt rate Ramos because he's a cnut, but as a defender I think he has no business being called one of the best in the world. Top 15? sure, top 3? Hell no.

Offensive teams are more exposed to rivals attacks, so that means they must have defenders who have to cope with extra difficulties other guys don't have.

And in Ramos case, if Marcelo doesn't want to defend more so :D
 
If anyone deserves a thread bump for being in horrible form it's Varane, not Ramos.

Well, both look weak defensively. Thank god Woody didnt secure that £100 million move for Varane that was mentioned. He will obviously get better in the future but had we done that mega deal this summer and he played like this we'd have been the biggest laughing stock in world football.
 
had we done that mega deal this summer and he played like this we'd have been the biggest laughing stock in world football.
No offense, but post-SAF, you haven't been really far from that with signings or results, relative to the club's pedigree and stature.
 
No offense, but post-SAF, you haven't been really far from that with signings or results, relative to the club's pedigree and stature.

We obviously dont need a £100 million CB playing as bad as our out of form CBs on top of that.
 
Not in good form, but who is at Real? Marcelo defensively not to be seen, Nacho and Varane had a mare + a new GK in the net. Also Casemiro, Kroos and Modric are not in form. He is not superman, even if he was in top form and the best defender ever, he would look lost in that side at the moment. They were all over the place yesterday.
 
Ramos is a wonderful footballer, a great leader, and has come up with some big goals for Real Madrid over the years. There's only one problem. He's a horrible defender. Probably one of the most overrated defenders to ever play the game. Constantly caught out of position and overly agressive/dirty. I've always thought he should be a DM. He has the ability to play in midfield and then when he does get forward it wouldn't hurt his team as much as it does when he's in central defense...

He's an awful leader. He's the equivalent of that weird person that puts motivational posters in facebook, but with serious face, wearing expensive clothes and saying it to journalists that are on his pocket, his leadership lacks a lot of things most natural leaders have.

Last example, Casemiro says yesterday on the pitch that "Real Madrid were horrible", Ramos gets asked about that and says that "That wasn't the moment to say that, now it's the moment for autocriticism". As far as I know Casemiro wears a Real Madrid shirt, so he was criticizing himself too. But Ramos is the kind of person that wants to leave the pitch making you think he feels awful for his performance and won't sleep that night.

He's not that person, he just wants to be the Queen bee and anyone who dances to his song will have his simpathy, but that's not leadership as there's 22 men he has to lead in that locker room, not just 4 or 6 of his pals. What he did to Casemiro yesterday, Reguilon days ago or other things like taking the penalties and fouls when his forwards need to build up confidence to try to fill Ronaldo's shoes are the opposite of what a leader would do.
 
Has Real ever been known for their amazing defense? They just outscored their opponents didnt they? I won't deny part of me doesnt rate Ramos because he's a cnut, but as a defender I think he has no business being called one of the best in the world. Top 15? sure, top 3? Hell no.
They relied heavily on their defence in last year's Champions League run. A few games the rest of the team were posted missing for an hour and it required exceptional defending from Ramos and Varane to hold the fort long enough for one of their attackers or Modric to get them back into the game.
 
He's an awful leader. He's the equivalent of that weird person that puts motivational posters in facebook, but with serious face, wearing expensive clothes and saying it to journalists that are on his pocket, his leadership lacks a lot of things most natural leaders have.

Last example, Casemiro says yesterday on the pitch that "Real Madrid were horrible", Ramos gets asked about that and says that "That wasn't the moment to say that, now it's the moment for autocriticism". As far as I know Casemiro wears a Real Madrid shirt, so he was criticizing himself too. But Ramos is the kind of person that wants to leave the pitch making you think he feels awful for his performance and won't sleep that night.

He's not that person, he just wants to be the Queen bee and anyone who dances to his song will have his simpathy, but that's not leadership as there's 22 men he has to lead in that locker room, not just 4 or 6 of his pals. What he did to Casemiro yesterday, Reguilon days ago or other things like taking the penalties and fouls when his forwards need to build up confidence to try to fill Ronaldo's shoes are the opposite of what a leader would do.

That’s not really fair.

Player power at Madrid is huge, he had a big role in that department and they won 4 of 5 Champions Leagues by being one of the strongest teams I’ve seen mentally.

That team had a lot of personality and you can’t be like that without great leaders. Being a leader isn’t about being nice to everybody, he’s earned the power he has in that dressing room.

Nothing wrong with the comments he made on Casemiro or the Reguilon thing, that happens.
 
Think it's case of considering the whole package - is he as good in the air as peak Terry? Tactically strong as Maldinni? Composed as Rio? He's arguably not but all round, he's an 8/10 at everything which makes him a very complete player. Sure, he can be too aggressive but part of that is what makes him a great CB.

I try not to post in this thread nowadays since I probably sound like a broken record on this issue. Plus a lot of sensible posters disagree with me on this, which makes me pause and reconsider sometimes.

But you quoted my post from June. So.

He is not an 8/10 at everything. That narrative does not jive with Real Madrid's defensive record this season, or any of their seasons going back a few years, when he was supposedly the best defender in the world.

La Liga goals conceded by Madrid

2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38

CL goals conceded by Madrid

2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10

And no, he is not the only defender in history to play in an attacking side, so that is not an excuse.

But this is what happens when people use trophy count to rate players.
 
That’s not really fair.

Player power at Madrid is huge, he had a big role in that department and they won 4 of 5 Champions Leagues by being one of the strongest teams I’ve seen mentally.

That team had a lot of personality and you can’t be like that without great leaders. Being a leader isn’t about being nice to everybody, he’s earned the power he has in that dressing room.

Nothing wrong with the comments he made on Casemiro or the Reguilon thing, that happens.

My personnal opinion, personality and leaderships usually go hand by hand, but they're not related directly.

Dani Alves for example has a lot of personality and charisma, great motivator and his teammates seem to love him, but I'd rather not have him as a captain of my team. For me the first thing I look for in a leader is the capacity to take a personal blow to his persona/ego for the sake of the team and I can't remember Ramos doing that. He's always lost in vendettas, Ramos vs Sevilla fans, Nike, Mou, the president and the wages, and now Ramos vs critics of the idiosyncrasy he has instaured in the club.

If Real Madrid chooses Lopetegui, keeps Benzema, Bale and Isco and doesn't sing another great player is mostly because, as you said, player power is huge. Ramos knows he's at the helm of the biggest football club (only below Florentino) and a lot of the team's shortcomings are directly or indirectly related to how he probably didn't want to cope with another superstar coming into the team and stealing power from him.

The way he backed Lopetegui until almost the end is different to his usual professional answers when he talked about Mou, Carlo, Benitez or Zidane, he's personally invested in Julen being the coach of the team, at least that's what I read from him.
 
He's an awful leader. He's the equivalent of that weird person that puts motivational posters in facebook, but with serious face, wearing expensive clothes and saying it to journalists that are on his pocket, his leadership lacks a lot of things most natural leaders have.

Last example, Casemiro says yesterday on the pitch that "Real Madrid were horrible", Ramos gets asked about that and says that "That wasn't the moment to say that, now it's the moment for autocriticism". As far as I know Casemiro wears a Real Madrid shirt, so he was criticizing himself too. But Ramos is the kind of person that wants to leave the pitch making you think he feels awful for his performance and won't sleep that night.

He's not that person, he just wants to be the Queen bee and anyone who dances to his song will have his simpathy, but that's not leadership as there's 22 men he has to lead in that locker room, not just 4 or 6 of his pals. What he did to Casemiro yesterday, Reguilon days ago or other things like taking the penalties and fouls when his forwards need to build up confidence to try to fill Ronaldo's shoes are the opposite of what a leader would do.

I was just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt lol. But we can take leader off the list too
 
I try not to post in this thread nowadays since I probably sound like a broken record on this issue. Plus a lot of sensible posters disagree with me on this, which makes me pause and reconsider sometimes.

But you quoted my post from June. So.

He is not an 8/10 at everything. That narrative does not jive with Real Madrid's defensive record this season, or any of their seasons going back a few years, when he was supposedly the best defender in the world.

La Liga goals conceded by Madrid

2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38

CL goals conceded by Madrid

2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10

And no, he is not the only defender in history to play in an attacking side, so that is not an excuse.

But this is what happens when people use trophy count to rate players.

Genuinely didn't realize it was June lol, thought was from other day!

On your above post, you're suggesting that Ramos alone is responsible for RM's defensive record? I don't really like him as a player but would say, being fair and unbiased, he's probably the most complete CB from the last ~5yrs.
 
Genuinely didn't realize it was June lol, thought was from other day!

On your above post, you're suggesting that Ramos alone is responsible for RM's defensive record? I don't really like him as a player but would say, being fair and unbiased, he's probably the most complete CB from the last ~5yrs.

No.

At the same time, the mind boggles as to how a world class defender can feature in a mediocre defensive unit. What impact is he having on that end of the pitch? Would the goals conceded shoot up if he was replaced by Pique or Godin or Van Dijk or Bonucci?
 
Genuinely didn't realize it was June lol, thought was from other day!

On your above post, you're suggesting that Ramos alone is responsible for RM's defensive record? I don't really like him as a player but would say, being fair and unbiased, he's probably the most complete CB from the last ~5yrs.

He's not even the best defender for Real Madrid in the last 5 years, Pepe until 2016 and Varane since then have been better than Ramos on the defensive end.

If you want to see how good Ramos is when partnered with another mediocre defender, look at Spain in our last international competitions, Pique and Ramos are one of the worst duos I've seen in the national team, as adexkola already put, there's one reason Real Madrid went from conceeding 10/9/6 goals with Pepe in UCL to 15+ in the last seasons, Ramos has the athleticism and boldness but not the brains to be a defender, Pepe kept him in check and 2016, when he peaked with Madrid and Portugal was a monster year. Not only has Sergio lost his "north" without Pepe, his athleticism no longer helps him cover for his lack of tactical sense.
 
Looking at goals conceded to judge defenders, what's next? Judging GKs by GC? The stupid Zamora award?
 
Looking at goals conceded to judge defenders, what's next? Judging GKs by GC? The stupid Zamora award?

It's obvious that judging defenders by how many goals the team concedes doesn't always make sense but it's also true that Real Madrid defenders defending like crap and getting no criticism for it because of 'the system' is nonsense.

If you ask people what's the best backline in football for the past few years, many would say Carvajal-Varane-Ramos-Marcelo... despite it being almost a miracle for them to get a clean sheet.
 
It's obvious that judging defenders by how many goals the team concedes doesn't always make sense but it's also true that Real Madrid defenders defending like crap and getting no criticism for it because of 'the system' is nonsense.

If you ask people what's the best backline in football for the past few years, many would say Carvajal-Varane-Ramos-Marcelo... despite it being almost a miracle for them to get a clean sheet.
I do agree somewhat. They don't get many clean sheets, however is that because they are bad defenders or because of the style they choose to play. Part of the reason why Madrid were so successful is because how that back line can get forward, put pressure and contribute in the offense. That of course comes with giving chances the other way. It's difficult for defenders to look great when everybody is going forward without much defensive awareness. Individually are they truly great defenders, probably not..but they also look a lot worse because of the tactics they choose to play.
 
That's gotta be the state in which you posted your previous one.
It's obvious that judging defenders by how many goals the team concedes doesn't always make sense but it's also true that Real Madrid defenders defending like crap and getting no criticism for it because of 'the system' is nonsense.

If you ask people what's the best backline in football for the past few years, many would say Carvajal-Varane-Ramos-Marcelo... despite it being almost a miracle for them to get a clean sheet.
You defend as a team, not singling out one GK or one CB... if we were to put a prime Baresi in Ramos' place in the current state of team, it wouldn't change anything, maybe one less conceded goal here, and vice versa, put Ramos or Varane in Atleti, and they'd hardly change... you can never compare GC or even GS to directly compare CBs or AMs or CFs between different teams. JL plays with a ridiculously high back line with no cover for CBs, it's destined to be failed, no matter the players, but as Gio pointed out, you can find many games where it were Ramos/Varane that saved the team in the biggest of games, or in Marcelo's case, turning the game on it's head.
 
That's gotta be the state in which you posted your previous one.

You defend as a team, not singling out one GK or one CB... if we were to put a prime Baresi in Ramos' place in the current state of team, it wouldn't change anything, maybe one less conceded goal here, and vice versa, put Ramos or Varane in Atleti, and they'd hardly change... you can never compare GC or even GS to directly compare CBs or AMs or CFs between different teams.

I don't criticize them for the number of goals they concede, I criticize them for often being terrible at defending. The system being harder for them does not in any way make them immune to criticism.
 
I don't criticize them for the number of goals they concede, I criticize them for often being terrible at defending. The system being harder for them does not in any way make them immune to criticism.
The more you get exposed with no cover, the higher the chances of failing... it's natural to see more mistakes done by Cannavaro in a RM shirt than in Juve/Italy where the team has different priorities. Same case for every defender ever.
 
Ramos is a wonderful footballer, a great leader, and has come up with some big goals for Real Madrid over the years. There's only one problem. He's a horrible defender. Probably one of the most overrated defenders to ever play the game. Constantly caught out of position and overly agressive/dirty. I've always thought he should be a DM. He has the ability to play in midfield and then when he does get forward it wouldn't hurt his team as much as it does when he's in central defense...

Well if he is a horrible defender why don't we sign him.
 
You can't say he's a horrible defender after all he won. He's a heads or tails defender, in a heads or tails team. This year the coin has been landing tails a lot, but for the past 5 years its the contrary.
 
If anyone deserves a thread bump for being in horrible form it's Varane, not Ramos.

Very true. He was class during the WC but having a horrible season so far for whatever reason.