Certainly true regarding playing styles of the teams and managers, however I've maintained for years that we should fill our midfield with the players who are most comfortable on the ball. Pogba, Inietsa, De Bruyne etc can all in my opinion do 95% the work of a traditional DM, but so many of those DMs can't contribute enough on the ball. I think being a DM 'breaking up the play' is the easiest roll on a pitch. At least it was when I played 6-a-side and didn't want /couldn't get up and down the pitch for 60 minutes or beat a man.
Sergej Milinkovic Savic
- Thread starter R'hllor
- Start date
Certainly true regarding playing styles of the teams and managers, however I've maintained for years that we should fill our midfield with the players who are most comfortable on the ball. Pogba, Inietsa, De Bruyne etc can all in my opinion do 95% the work of a traditional DM, but so many of those DMs can't contribute enough on the ball. I think being a DM 'breaking up the play' is the easiest roll on a pitch. At least it was when I played 6-a-side and didn't want /couldn't get up and down the pitch for 60 minutes or beat a man.
If we could get him it would make us much stronger, but I hope Pogba stays also.
Nah, there's just as much skill in being a good DM as a good AM, it's just less celebrated because when people watch football they watch the ball, and whereas 80% of what a good AM does is on the ball, 80% of what a good DM does is off it.
The big difference between Chelsea last season and Chelsea this season is not that they swapped Costa for Morata, it's that they swapped Matic for Bakayoko.
Why would city spend 100m on a player with a notoriously poor first touch and very high % of giving the ball away. This guy is a power house useful in a lot of teams, but wouldn't fit in at all with City. Story seems very made up
I disagree. It can't be a coincidence that DM's are usually not as adept on the ball as those playing further forwards. I think most attacking midfielders could easily do a defensive job with a little traingin, but most DM's could never move further up the field. I don't think playing creative talents further back is stifling their talents, it just requires them to be creative from deeper positions. Veratti for example, and Busquets to an extent.
3 Iniestas in midfiled would beat 3 Makeleles. I'm not arguing for something so extreme at United, but it's clear we lack creativity and forward passing from deep areas (beyond hoofballs). I want to see two creative 8s playing ahead of a 6, Pogba and SMS would be great for this scenario I think.
I think it is their Yaya replacement, even if he isnt playing for Pep regularly. City go and buy replacements for their players, so it seems a lazy story to link him with City. Maybe he is a club target, but would seem weird if Pep wants him.
It's not weird. Pep likes to work with the worlds best players. There are not many who are better than him. If we weren't in the mix, it'd feel just like the KDB situation when the best midfielder outside the PL in that previous season was available and we didn't even get linked or mentioned by one credible source.
I think if Scottie meets his potential, in a couple of years we could be lining up like
----------Pogba------------------
-----------------------Sergej-----
-----------McTominay------------
which I wouldn't be against
----------Pogba------------------
-----------------------Sergej-----
-----------McTominay------------
which I wouldn't be against
I have to vehemently disagree with that notion. If that were true we wouldn’t see - time and time again - good teams trying to fit in too many ‘ballers’ in midfield and struggling to be the sum of their parts.
If it was so easy, Gerrard and Lampard would have gelled better for England over the course of their careers. There is a reason why Casemiro has been a mainstay in Real Madrid’s midfield at the expense of more technical players such as Isco, James or Kovacic in recent years. There is a reason why Makelele got a game for them at the height of their ‘galactico’ days and why success dried up when he was replaced by an undoubtedly greater technician in Beckham - in fact, your opinion seems to mirror that of Florentino Perez, who was entirely ignorant to the importance of Makelele to the balance and effectiveness of the side as a whole.
Technically, yes, any silky player could be deployed as a holding midfielder and would be able to bring certain qualities to the role, but the ability to effectively break up the play, protect the defence and just generally position themselves correctly and intelligently is not something which any and every player can just pick up as and when they are positioned there. It is a skill set which comes naturally for some and which can be improved through experience but there will always be players who will simply just never have ‘it’.
That is also not to say that a holding player has to be a purely destructive one. Balance can be achieved across a midfield, or - more holistically - across an entire team lineup, in so many ways. Pirlo was magnificent because the teams he was involved in used a formation and personnel which compensated for his obvious weaknesses and promoted the use of his equally obvious, immense passing ability. Gattuso and Ambrosini were not great players but they were great enablers, and while they ideally could have been upgraded on, they were the right ‘kind’ of player for that Milan side. So to improve the team, they would have needed to be replaced by a Keane, Vieira or Davids - someone who brought everything that a Gattuso does to the table and then some. Were Xabi Alonso to have become available to that side, he would have improved nothing despite being a superior player to Gattuso in his own right.
Players like Pirlo, Makelele and Gattuso are extreme examples of particular styles of midfielders - the vast majority of players have a skill set which is not quite as narrow. Nevertheless, most can still be broadly categorised in terms of their foremost strengths and natural tendencies. For a team to be successful they have to have a balanced side. And since no player can excel at every aspect of their position, to achieve that they must employ players of various skill sets. You seem to be rather dismissive of certain qualities, and by extension certain playing styles.
I would agree that three Iniesta’s would be superior to three Makelele’s, but then Iniesta is a more versatile player both in terms of skill set and position. This argument misses the point though - three Iniesta’s wouldn’t be superior to Busquets/ Xavi/ Iniesta or Makelele/ Keane/ Scholes. The ideal is to set up a midfield where all the players facilitate each other.
Whether operating deeper stifles a player or not is entirely dependent on the particular player. Verratti and Busquets are playing in their natural roles. To play Pogba as a holding player would stifle him, as it would with Xavi, Iniesta, Vidal, Kante, Kroos - an endless group of players. Conversely, moving Modric and Pirlo deeper was liberating for them - allowing them to utilise their abilities to greater effect than a more advanced position did.
Similarly, a player’s versatility is unique to the individual. There is no blanket rule whereby deep or defensive players are incapable of operating more offensively or advanced, yet those playing higher up can all adapt to play further back. Some players are comfortable in several positions and some really only excel in one. Many have an identifiable ‘best’ position but not all. It depends entirely on the player.
I specifically wrote that I'm not suggesting something as extreme as three Iniestas, and agree that balance is needed. Hence me suggesting two creative 8s ahead of a regular 6.
The example of Gerrard and Lampard is irrelevant, in fact it highlights my point, neither were comfortable on the ball during their England days, the whole team was too conservative and incapable of holding onto the ball in the middle of the park, hence the clamour for Scholes to start there.
I still maintain that most DMs have it easy, otherwise they wouldn't almost always be the least adept on the ball of the team's midfielders. Their standout quality is never that they 'read the game better' it's that they're a 'midfielder' who can't contribute as much offensively. Otherwise you'd see many more technically gifted midfielders who also happen to be the best at reading offensive threats from the opposition.
He'll be going to Chelsea I think, especially if they lose Hazard. In fact if they get 150ish for hazard and spend 80 on SMS and 70 on Mahrez they might've come out better than they went in.
If they dont get champions league they dont get him. Courtois might leave to madrid with just a year on his contract so he wont be that expensive, while they might have to replace him with 50-70 million euro keeper in Allison or 100 million on Oblak.
Think if he comes to England its either United or city.
Don't think footballers care too much about CL, tbh. Utd got Pogba, mkhi when they were out. Liverpool got Mane. Arsenal got Auba, Laca when we're not in CL and don't seem to be anywhere close to making our way back there. Chelsea is a step up from Lazio, and they can offer him sufficient dosh to make him forget about other things. He's just 23 too, this won't be his last move, if he plays well enough he could leave for Real or some other club in a few years time. They'll use whatever they get for Courtois to fund a similar level of replacement goalkeepers aren't really too dear to the wallet.
Plus Utd dont really need him, you've already got Pogba who's equal if not better. City seem to be going for Fred and I suspect that SMS is too flamboyant for Peps system. I can see Utd spend big on fullbacks and a water carrier CM option to try and reduce Pogba's defensive workload.
I used the example of Gerrard and Lampard merely to illustrate that players cannot simply take to playing in a disciplined holding role like a duck to water without having the necessary qualities to do so. Is your contention really that players such as Makelele, Mascherano (traditional defensive midfielders - destructive holding players) or Gattuso, Khedira (box to box midfielders - runners, grafters, workhorses, ball-winners) have absolutely no qualities that can’t be found in a Scholes, Xavi or Modric. That more gifted technical players bring everything that they do to a team and more. Do you truly believe that were these lesser players not taking up a space deep in midfield, the Scholes’, Xavi’s and Modric’s could assume the role and demonstrate the same defensive aptitude? Did you really see no difference - no weakness - in how Pirlo or Scholes operated defensively as the deepest, holding midfielder compared to Makelele or Hargreaves?
The only example from my post which you address is Gerrard and Lampard. What about Casemiro, Makelele and Gattuso; with your disregard for their strengths, you must have a rather scathing opinion of them as players - why do you think they are/ were starting for elite sides? Do you believe the clubs were successful in spite of these players?
Arsene Wenger constructed a fantastic team with Vieira and Gilberto Silva in midfield. They were excellent all round, strong and hard to beat but a delightfully free-flowing team in attack who were adept at both breaking down set defences and counterattacking. Arsenal have had more technical midfielders since then but have really struggled to build a side anywhere near as strong and effective in all phases of play.
I have always loved watching Spain play, even as massive underachievers they constantly played expansive attacking football and were just inundated with quality players. It took the deployment of Marcos Senna in the holding midfield role to take a massive step up and become winners. He was a good, typical destructive player and an average, unfussy technician. It’s not about playing just anyone there, you have to have the right player to compliment those around him.
I remember Davids going on loan to Barcelona at a time when they had bought Ronaldinho but were still struggling to get out of mid-table, where they had finished the previous season, and transforming their fortunes. His energy, drive, relentless combativeness and tendency to work the left channel really added to Ronaldinho’s and the team’s play.
Keane and Vieira provided United and Arsenal with the same qualities and that same extra dimension for years. They were obviously immense players, but the same could be said of Essien, Ramires, Fletcher or Matuidi. These weren’t holding players and yet aren’t particularly skilful, aren’t particularly great passers or dribblers. They operated in the same position as Scholes, Xavi and Modric did for the majority of their careers but provided the team with a completely different set of attributes. Then you have players like Vidal, Nainggolan, Hamsik, Kevin-Prince Boateng and Paulinho at Barcelona, who are providing many of these traits from an advanced midfield position. Stylistically, they are a world away from an Ozil, David Silva or Iniesta but are lining up in the same positions. They just interpret the role differently, they brings other strengths which those silkier no.10’s can’t provide and they are valuable to their team because of that.
Iniesta cannot do 95% of the work of traditional DM. That's a bit of hyperbole.
TBH, I don't think any of the players can and should be in that role. A traditional DM does more than just break up play (i.e. mark the #10, track back to shield the backline, close down the space in between the more attacking midfielders, etc)
No more giants please. We should sign at least one short/agile/skilfull midfielder with glue on his feet. Maybe Kovačić is getable.
Once again, I haven't suggested we or anyone should play without a traditional 6, I'm suggesting that what we need is a creative, ball playing midfielder to play alongside Matic and Pogba, rather than another 6 'to release' Pogba. These two can interchange, take turns in dropping deep to launch attacks, be comfortable playing between the lines, something which I think is clear we lack with only Pogba capable of playing that way. The amount of time we have possession deeper than the oppositions strikers really frustrates me.
The players you mentioned above, Gilberto Silvas etc, are all necessary to their teams, as those teams certainly benefit from having a player playing in the position of a 6, rather than because they were capable of doing anything that a more creative player couldn't have done.
Really like the look of this lad.
The Gilberto Silva’s of the world most definitely have capabilities that the typical creative player does not. Your last paragraph is bafflingly contradictory. This particular kind of player is necessary for his team but they provide nothing that other, more talented players (in a technical or creative sense) can? Has there simply been a dearth of these more talented players in the world of football, that these inferior midfielders have consistently had to make up the numbers at the highest level over the years? Are all the talented players spoilt brats who refuse to play in the no.6 role?
You believe we struggle in building the play from deep, progressing it forward and initiating attacks because Pogba is the only player in midfield capable of doing so (by extension believing that Matic is incapable of doing so to an acceptable level, yes?), and you believe that any player can adequately perform the more defensive aspects of Matic’s position, yet your solution is to play an additional creative player? Why on earth would you want to keep Matic in the side? Given your point of view, he provides nothing of value to the team. Why don’t you want to replace him in your hypothetical improvement of the side? Why aren’t you suggesting we play without a traditional no.6? What do they bring to the team for you to justify their inclusion?
With regards to Milinkovic-Savic, using Pogba well and United’s midfield line up for next season, I can’t recall anyone advocating the use of a second no.6 to release Pogba. The overwhelming consensus aligns with your own opinion - that an additional no.8 is the way forward - but opinions vary on which particular kind or style of player is best.
I believe Pogba is a relatively complete player - the passing range, the various ways to escape pressure using quick feet, turns, feints, body position and general technique and imagination allied rather uniquely with his driving runs, energy and general athleticism. For this reason, though unsuited to the role of a no.6 or a no.10, he is an adaptable no.8 who can dovetail well with practically any kind of central midfield partner. So I can see almost any player of the requisite individual quality being a good fit here. An Essien or Kante, a Hamsik or Lampard, a Gundogan or Pjanic, an Iniesta or Wesley Sneijder. A player like Jorginho I would be apprehensive about, if the descriptions of him on here are accurate - a Carrick or Xabi Alonso, another natural no.6, doesn’t fit with Matic and Pogba. Forcing Pogba into a no.10 position in a 4-2-3-1 or one of the other two into a no.8 role in a 4-3-3 would be a square peg/ round hole move.
Milinkovic-Savic seems like an interesting prospect, without having seen him play. The descriptions of his style and abilities and the updates on his games and his influence on them all attest to his quality. Is he too similar to Pogba? You obviously believe that either he is not, or that their skilset is varied enough that it would work. A Pogba without the stardust, the silky skills, with more maturity, a more reliable mindset and less petulance, and a greater eye for goal - similar to Michael Ballack perhaps, or somewhere between Pogba and him?
I understand the appeal to some of having another tall, physical, dynamic and gifted player in that third midfield berth, but I also understand the concern others have regarding that idea. We would lack the agility, the nimbleness that the trio’s body shapes simply don’t allow. Energy levels in general could be an issue - both Pogba and Matic have displayed lethargy at times this season. Matic was bouncing against Chelsea and has done a considerable amount of running overall this season, but there has been a definite, sustained period of games where he has looked very leggy. Similarly, Pogba looked indefatigable at the beginning of the season and the difference in his drive and urgency recently is startling. Of course, this could be because of injury, illness, fitness issues or problems with Mourinho, effort and motivation. It is worth consideration regarding transfers though - we have two first choice midfielders of similar physique who, despite their advantageous frames, have both been inconsistent - and indeed found wanting, at times - this season athletically. Is it wise to add a third player of the same ilk. An argument could be made that we would be without a player of truly patient and methodical passing and positioning, and that our attempts to break down a particularly well organised opponent could suffer accordingly. Would we have someone with the intelligence and discipline to position themselves to receive the ball adequately and with regularity ‘in the hole’/ ‘between the lines’ and the quickness of feet and mind to take advantage?
I’m not expecting a player to come in and provide everything that we are presently missing in midfield as that player doesn’t exist. I would say that there are broadly four kinds of players (as mentioned previously - Essien/ Kante, Hamsik/ Lampard, Gundogan/ Pjanic, Iniesta/ Sneijder) who could provide us with something different - hence the various opinions on which player, or which style of player, is most suitable for us - and it would be prudent to try and bring in a player who gives us something new. Having never watched Milinkovic-Savic, I can’t know what he would bring to the team and what he wouldn’t. I have certain ideas based on the views here and my stereotyping of players with his height and build, but I don’t know how dynamic he is, the extent of his strengths or how versatile or adaptable he is. Could he thrive from a right-of-centre position? It hasn’t been mentioned but we are ridiculously lop-sided as an attacking unit. Were a high quality player to come in who is comfortable in an inside right position and who excels there he would markedly improve the side.
Should be looking at Max Meyer too, as he's running his contract out and can leave for free this summer. We would be silly to not at least throw our hat in the ring for such a bargain deal on quality talent.
We need a Kante and a Carrick like player alongside Pogba in midfield.
He seems similar to Pogba to me, people who have seen him a lot - are there similarities?
Yeah.
I think SMS would be a great buy for Arsenal.
Anyone watching Lazio vs Juventus?
Any idea how SMS is doing?
Any idea how SMS is doing?
He wouldnt go there though, too many better clubs interested in him for him to choose from
He would go to whoever pays him and pays his club what they want for him.
Lazio set to move for Stoke target as Manchester United prepare Sergej Milinkovic-Savic raid
Milinkovic-Savic is set to leave the Stadio Olimpico in the summer, with a number of top clubs from around Europe ready to snap him up.
As a result, Lazio are planning ahead and have already begun their search for the 23-year-old's replacement.
According to Mundo Deportivo, Real Betis midfielder Ruiz fits the bill and Lazio are willing to activate the 21-year-old's release clause to ensure a deal can be concluded.
Corriere dello sport sport also running with the story :
http://m.corrieredellosport.it/news...zio_su_fabian_ruiz/?cookieAccept&cookieAccept
I remember someone recommending Fabian Ruiz as the guy to complete our midfield. Would be a good deal for Lazio, selling Savic for 80 million and buying a very highly rated youngsters for almost half the price.
BTW his picture in the CDS article is quite funny
Looks like he's cupping Messi's balls - perhaps the only way to stop Messi
Milinkovic-Savic is set to leave the Stadio Olimpico in the summer, with a number of top clubs from around Europe ready to snap him up.
As a result, Lazio are planning ahead and have already begun their search for the 23-year-old's replacement.
According to Mundo Deportivo, Real Betis midfielder Ruiz fits the bill and Lazio are willing to activate the 21-year-old's release clause to ensure a deal can be concluded.
Corriere dello sport sport also running with the story :
http://m.corrieredellosport.it/news...zio_su_fabian_ruiz/?cookieAccept&cookieAccept
I remember someone recommending Fabian Ruiz as the guy to complete our midfield. Would be a good deal for Lazio, selling Savic for 80 million and buying a very highly rated youngsters for almost half the price.
BTW his picture in the CDS article is quite funny
Looks like he's cupping Messi's balls - perhaps the only way to stop Messi
I believe that was @Invictus Ruiz would be a better fit for us and a lot cheaper, he's actually a proper box to box rather than another giant AM with poor positional discipline and little workrate.
I'm not so sure, he will start playing LVG Horny football, and we all know that is the unstoppable holy grail he envisaged.Lazio set to move for Stoke target as Manchester United prepare Sergej Milinkovic-Savic raid
Milinkovic-Savic is set to leave the Stadio Olimpico in the summer, with a number of top clubs from around Europe ready to snap him up.
As a result, Lazio are planning ahead and have already begun their search for the 23-year-old's replacement.
According to Mundo Deportivo, Real Betis midfielder Ruiz fits the bill and Lazio are willing to activate the 21-year-old's release clause to ensure a deal can be concluded.
Corriere dello sport sport also running with the story :
http://m.corrieredellosport.it/news...zio_su_fabian_ruiz/?cookieAccept&cookieAccept
I remember someone recommending Fabian Ruiz as the guy to complete our midfield. Would be a good deal for Lazio, selling Savic for 80 million and buying a very highly rated youngsters for almost half the price.
BTW his picture in the CDS article is quite funny
Looks like he's cupping Messi's balls - perhaps the only way to stop Messi
So apparently Sergej has liked a post by Matic in which the team is celebrating after the win today
And Sanchez, he loves pulling up his shorts doesn't he
And Sanchez, he loves pulling up his shorts doesn't he
So apparently Sergej has liked a post by Matic in which the team is celebrating after the win today
And Sanchez, he loves pulling up his shorts doesn't he
He’s a compatriot, though, isn’t he? Maybe just a friends thing.
If PSG decided to offer us enough to break even on Pogba I would take it in the blink of an eye and sign Milinkovic-Savic.
And this time next year you will be in some other bloke's thread asking for him to be replace this bloke when he's inevitably shite, too.
Agreed, on top of that buying another player in Pogba's mold when Mournho can't figure out to use the one we have makes no sense.
At least he would run and try. Pogba gave up today completely. The attitude is unacceptable
We have Pogba who is (in my opinion) a better player than SMS. Sergej is a fantastic player, but similar to Pogba. Besides a new No.6 to rotate with Matic, we need a top midfielder... someone like Thiago, Verrati or even Kovacic/Seri.
If Mourinho decides to play 4231 formation, then, I would go for a player like Dybala, Eriksen, Fekir, etc.
If Mourinho decides to play 4231 formation, then, I would go for a player like Dybala, Eriksen, Fekir, etc.
Why SMS is always out of the lineup when playing Europa League?
I get the impression that, while this guy is too similar to Pogba to work for us, we got 'the wrong Pogba' if you like.
SMS seems the same type of player except far more direct, to the point and a bit more hard working. You'll never see a Serbian with dyed hair doing Instagram videos. I get the vibe that SMS would be a far better fit for both our team and the PL in general, his attributes are similar but he's a bit 'tougher'.
SMS seems the same type of player except far more direct, to the point and a bit more hard working. You'll never see a Serbian with dyed hair doing Instagram videos. I get the vibe that SMS would be a far better fit for both our team and the PL in general, his attributes are similar but he's a bit 'tougher'.
was injured yesterday.