I find it interesting that not everyone has the same approach. The UK seem better prepared than most. It may or may not work better, but i am curious to see the outcome. We can learn more by it than everyone using the same strategy with different applications
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
It's a strange thing to say, but it could be an invaluable exercise for a future pandemic with a much high death rate.
Part of me wonders if the entire approach from the UK is because they want public anger over the lack of action, so that when they do announce the extreme measures people feel relieved.
There are worst reactions people could have than 'about fecking time' and 'see I told you to trust they had a plan!' and those seem to be the ones their strategy is resulting in when they do announce measures.
There are worst reactions people could have than 'about fecking time' and 'see I told you to trust they had a plan!' and those seem to be the ones their strategy is resulting in when they do announce measures.
It's shite like this that makes me want liberal democracy to crash and burn the world over and for all countries to adopt a form of East Asian-style defensive democracy.
Sadly not. One part I found interesting and relevant was that through using the data they collected, in the early stages of a limited supply vaccine you can target, identify and vaccinate 'superspreaders' and significantly reduce the spread of the virus.
Sweden's biggest step so far is full salary for 14 days, no sick note required.
If you feel ill, stay fecking home.
If you feel ill, stay fecking home.
Yep. I am coming to terms with the fact that one or more of my grandparents may well not see their great grandchild who is expected next month. That’s tragic.
I hope I am wrong, but as we are seeing from even this thread, we have people telling us to resolve the issue by going full lockdown, who currently live in communities with zero cases,m. These communities are then are getting cases anyway. If the inevitable is going to happen, then you have to keep going and look at the wider picture.
War is not the perfect analogy, but we’re being invaded by an invisible enemy, who has no interest in surrender, and a loss of life is inevitable as our bodies are the only thing that can currently beat this thing. We either continue the war effort to maximise the outcome of what we are fighting for, or we sustain greater losses by simply not maintaining the logistics and other services that people need.
It's a perfectly fine illustration of the idea. But that does nothing to address the limitations or criticisms of the underlying idea itself. The more credulous seem to be glomming on to it as a demonstration of the effectiveness of the policy.
Water in a bucket is not a virus.
I think some posts are underestimating the diversity of the over 70 group. Yep, some of them are boomers with decent houses, gardens, internet/sky, support systems and reserves of mental and physical strength (and money because that's part of the being safe in your home, online shopping, staying amused and keeping in touch story).
Others are dependant on their kids to come in and clean the house every week, help them shop, wash the bedding and for many that'll be the biggest event of the week. Others will be looking after their equally old (but frailer) partner or a disabled child. Others will have daily visits from carers who go from house to house. Many struggle to use touch phones, never mind the internet.
And a significant group will have no support system, and are already struggling with loneliness as well as those physical comorbidities. They may also be living in cramped, dangerous or unsuitable housing. Their daily dog walk or weekly trip to the shop, or visit to the library, or even the monthly visit to the nurse may be their only time outside the house.
People may say loneliness doesn't kill, but self neglect does. Addiction and depression will be waiting in the shadows. Isolation is better than dying, but for some it will be a death sentence, and for a lot (maybe within weeks) it will spin off into the "I might as well be dead" reaction.
Others are dependant on their kids to come in and clean the house every week, help them shop, wash the bedding and for many that'll be the biggest event of the week. Others will be looking after their equally old (but frailer) partner or a disabled child. Others will have daily visits from carers who go from house to house. Many struggle to use touch phones, never mind the internet.
And a significant group will have no support system, and are already struggling with loneliness as well as those physical comorbidities. They may also be living in cramped, dangerous or unsuitable housing. Their daily dog walk or weekly trip to the shop, or visit to the library, or even the monthly visit to the nurse may be their only time outside the house.
People may say loneliness doesn't kill, but self neglect does. Addiction and depression will be waiting in the shadows. Isolation is better than dying, but for some it will be a death sentence, and for a lot (maybe within weeks) it will spin off into the "I might as well be dead" reaction.
Not much so far. Media are not allowed in and staff are too busy to be taking photos.
I did see this, my local hospital is using the ambulance garage as a makeshift ward
They do. It is rooted in bigotry and political motivation I feel. This is one of the lead people on the UK strategy debunking the narrative the herd immunity is the UK main aim.
Not much so far. Media are not allowed in and staff are too busy to be taking photos.
I did see this, my local hospital is using the ambulance garage as a makeshift ward
I think people in the UK might get more serious if they saw more like this. Very disturbing.
The UK is not in the same situation as any other country though.
They are still behind the likes of Italy, Spain, France and Germany, and on a per capita basis behind pretty much everybody else too. These countries are being forced into lockdowns because their projected real caseloads are already beyond the capacity of their health services.
The countries locking down after <10 cases are the ones without the budget and resources for a mass outbreak.
You really need to be placing more scrutiny on the politics of the decision making. One thing I am relieved about is that we have just had a general election and won’t have another one for 4+ years, so our government and our opposition can truly leave the short-term popularity of their decisions to one side.
Compare that to the US, where Trump’s early decision-making was transparent as feck that he was trying to make this not his - and not America’s - problem, even if that meant stranding people on ships on their shores.
Wtf? Who exactly told you that?
There are many so called experts who have different opinions.
for me it's rooted in getting shafted by the Tories for forty years
How long can Europe realistically stay in a lockdown? I have been arguing (again) with someone today that 6-8 months lockdown similar to the one we have right now is not realistic as it’d kill economy, and in case virus returns afterwards (and it will) we would basically be left without resources to contain it.
Sky News were running some pretty frightening footage yesterday out of Lombardy; it might be on their website.
I think it's having exactly that effect. Football worked out for itself that it didn't want the responsibility of spreading the virus. Trade shows and similar events are being cancelled. Local theatre companies, community centres etc are already closing operations.
People maybe crowding into Aldis but shopping centres, hotels and restaurants are getting quieter - as I can tell from the discount offers I keep getting sent from places assuring me about how much hand sanitizer the staff now use.
I'm more bothered by the idea that we're going to ask industry to make extra respirators etc. Hopefully they mean they asked them a month ago and they're starting to do it. If they're only now asking for that kind of stuff, that does seem like inadequate preparation.
Milan
I’m glad you are arguing this, because we have had people insisting the whole country should essentially do this, as if it is no big deal, as if no further problems are created. There’s no doubting this will be hard.
The elderly though generally are most at risk and deliver the least “output”, so they make sense to get the most stringent measures. We won’t lose as much by keeping them inside, and it mitigates the risks in those most vulnerable.
Send these dogs round to people who bought all the toilet paper
UK communicated it terribly though, hardly a surprise when you have Boris as a leader. That's the biggest problem. Everywhere including foreign newspapers this "UK is going herd immunity way" line made them look crazy, that's what I though too because it's just madness. Now since they clarified that it's not their target and they are just waiting for a good time to do more drastic actions, it makes sense. Communication is key at moments like this and I think they failed that.
Korea have done spectacular job with this, haven’t they?
It certainly doesn't need to be 6-8 months though. The aim of the lockdowns is to make sure the health services have capacity not eradicate all traces.
The first lockdown will allow the real volumes to present themselves and provide the time for healthcare to bolster their preparedness. You can then lift the most stringent measures in a controlled fashion to manage the next wave. If there's adequate testing you'd know exactly how many may be immune and the models would represent actual data rather than untested assumptions.
Does scuba gear work for oxygen therapy? How is pure oxygen made, stored and delivered?
Vallance when on Sky News and spent the entire time speaking about herd immunity. He barely spoke about any other measures.
But yeah bigotry and political.....
Yeah I say so as well but she says we need to replicate China and lock people down for a few months minimum. I think there are much better approaches than what China have done, and surely much more viable in European society.
Yeah, if you take the Grand Est as an example, it's getting out of hand. The lockdown is probably not warranted for every regions but the northern part of the country is already overwhelmed.
Perhaps Europe is, and that's a silly interpretation of "mild" that nobody is suggesting, of course. It's what an expert described as "fever, runny nose, sore throat, fatigue, coughing, muscle aches and sometimes chills," symptoms that, again, could easily be confused with having regular flu. I believe people were aware of the threat but testing itself was always lagging.
This is the problem, yeah. Considering how contagious COVID-19 is, it's a very low figure that can't possibly fill anybody with confidence that the government is fully aware of the scale of its spread in a population of 67 million. As we progress, I think the bigger picture will show that Europe was always playing catch-up with the virus.
Ouch.
It's entirely right that countries time measures carefully as the simple reality is that many of these measures are not sustainable for an extended or indefinite period. Even other countries which aren't pursuing the same policy as the UK recognise this.
That's why it'll be interesting if the UK chooses to pursue this particular seemingly unsustainable measure (isolating the elderly) for four whole months. The most rational reason for doing so is, as you suggest, the fact that it should have limited impact on output. But then that's not something the government are likely to message as it's a rather callous sounding way of assessing the value of the most vulnerable.
It's also something that (some of) those who reflexively defend the UK's approach may be reluctant to accept as a prime driver, as they may prefer to believe it's just an attempt to protect the most vulnerable. When in reality this plan carries its own substantial risks to the vulnerable if the isolation does not hold or if secondary health impacts arise.
I wouldn't say they are contradicting themselves.I'm reading conflicting advice on whether to treat fever with paracetamol or not. The NHS website recommendations it as a treatment method. However that Dr. John Campbell dude said in one of his videos that he doesn't recommend it as it works against the body's natural defense mechanism to raise the temperature and kill the virus (or something along those lines). I'm not currently sick, just trying to be prepared for when the time comes.
What are your thoughts @Arruda @Pogue Mahone if you don't mind me asking?
NSH: Paracetamol treats fever symptom
Campbell: Fever, if mild, can be beneficcial (special in the early stages) of infection because it's an immune response
Both are true. In the end, it's up the patient whether or not he wants to treat fever, if it's mild.
I personally would recommend it to anyone who feels down because of it, no nees to go through difficult symptoms based in some immunologic theory , which, being probably true, has little practical value.
Going to Morocco Wednesday, I don’t know whether to go or not.
can you picture how you would feel at the airport and on a busy plane right now?
It depends on your age, general health and whether you are equipped for possibly staying in Morocco for an extended time.
So my parent's went on a 5 week cruise a fortnight ago against everybody else's better judgement and on Thursday a passenger was removed with a chest infection. Test results came back a few hours ago, positive, so they're basically quarantined in Recife until the Brazilian authorities decide what to do. They've been confined to cabins since Thursday with zero crew contact permitted.
The cruise line's website has no mention of this - they did announce on Friday that all current and future cruises would be suspended for a period of 30 days - in line with other cruise companies. Boat is Silver Shadow (not one of the two Silversea ships reported on this morning by various outlets).
The cruise line's website has no mention of this - they did announce on Friday that all current and future cruises would be suspended for a period of 30 days - in line with other cruise companies. Boat is Silver Shadow (not one of the two Silversea ships reported on this morning by various outlets).