Saha is an ungrateful, disloyal bastard

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giggzy said:
We've got the second best record, behind Real... (points totalled up - games won and drawn)

Shame the CL....isn't a proper league.

Our record in the knocked out stages hasn't been good at all...... which needs addressing.
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When the CL is played totally as a league format, then maybe i'll rate your chances higher than the Madrid's, Juve's, Milan's of this world.

But as you say, you dont cut it when the knockout stages get going, hence i dont think you'll win it.
 
DJS said:
When the CL is played totally as a league format, then maybe i'll rate your chances higher than the Madrid's, Juve's, Milan's of this world.

But as you say, you dont cut it when the knockout stages get going, hence i dont think you'll win it.
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Not just saying this just because...we've got a great 'league format' record... but I think the CL should be a proper league. The cup stage, like any cup comp is a lottery.... It's easier to determine who'll win the league than say the FA Cup.... same goes for the CL KO stages. The only way we'll know who's the best, is if we actually have a full league format.


I think one of the reason why we might have been poor in the KO stages, could be down to our attacking mentality.... even Real suffered last year... and they may again this season, especially without Makele...

Juve are probably the fav's.... but we're not far behind.

And I don't rate AC that highly, they didn't actually win many matches in last season's comp... had Nedved played, Juve would've beat them in the final.
 
giggzy said:
Not just saying this just because...we've got a great 'league format' record... but I think the CL should be a proper league. The cup stage, like any cup comp is a lottery.... It's easier to determine who'll win the league than say the FA Cup.... same goes for the CL KO stages. The only way we'll know who's the best, is if we actually have a full league format.


I think one of the reason why we might have been poor in the KO stages, could be down to our attacking mentality.... even Real suffered last year... and they may again this season, especially without Makele...

Juve are probably the fav's.... but we're not far behind.

And I don't rate AC that highly, they didn't actually win many matches in last season's comp... had Nedved played, Juve would've beat them in the final.
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I think a mixture of league and cup format is ideal, as if you want to win the tournement, perhaps you should be good at all aspects, both league and cup.

As for Milan - like Juve, when it matters, they get the result more often than not, which is why i rate them higher than you.

When it matters, you seem to have a knack of either bottling it, or capitulating.

As for Juve winning if Nedved had played - that's just speculation.
 
I think Juve would've beat Milan with Nedved, Real would've beat Juve if makalele was not suspended for the second leg of the semi.
 
giggzy said:
We've got the second best record, behind Real... (points totalled up - games won and drawn)

Shame the CL....isn't a proper league.

Our record in the knocked out stages hasn't been good at all...... which needs addressing.
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Second best record in CL?

Did not know that, but seems surprising considering Milan have won it 6 times and are still behind United on points who have won it twice.

Or are you talking about 93 onwards?

Milan won the first 4 games in thr group last year and lost the remainig uimportant two.. and that meant beating Depor 4-0 in Spain, beating Bayern home and away, beating Real etc.

They lost the fifth and six game after already securing the first place in the group - and playing the second/third string. Obviously the # of points they got in the 'league' format can be misleading!

I would have loved Juve to win that final, but I think Milan was the best team all around the comp. As unbiased as I can be...
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Good positive outlook there VN...

I wouldn't put us as favourites, but there are 5-6 teams that could win it, and we're among them.
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And those teams are...
 
DJS, thanks for the Final records for the last 15 seasons, but perhaps you'd like to look at the SF records in the last 10 years as you suggested.

IT seems that Juve & Milan make it to the very end if they get their acts together, but if they crash out, they crash out very early.

Juve have made it further than United only ONCE in the last 5 years, how are they better than United in the CL?? :confused:
 
Cal said:
IT seems that Juve & Milan make it to the very end if they get their acts together, but if they crash out, they crash out very early.
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Very fine observation. Italian teams tend to be ery good in the knockout stages and shit in the league stages.
 
England's top 3, Man Utd, Chelski and Arsenal are superior to any Italian team. Facts speak for themselves - Man Utd easily beat Juve twice last season, while Arsenal and Chelski slaughtered the Italian lambs that were brought to them.
England's finest against Spain's best is another matter altogether, though.
 
Re_Deus said:
England's finest against Spain's best is another matter altogether, though.
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We gave Valencia a good 3-0 hammering at OT in the 1999/2000 season.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
And we knocked Deportivo out of the CL in the Quarter Finals in 2002
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Clearly we are not very good against the Spanish teams.
 
I think overall the Spanish have a better record against the English over the last few years. Valencia and Deportivo have handed out defeats to the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool, while Real have been beating Man Utd.
I think that could change this year, and only Real will pose problems for any of the English teams.
 
Just off the top of my head, over the past few years, we have:

Real Madrid: Won 2, Lost 2, Drawn 1
Deportivo: Won 2, Lost 2
Valencia: Won 1, Drawn 3

Could be wrong though.
 
WeasteDevil said:
Just off the top of my head, over the past few years, we have:

Real Madrid: Won 2, Lost 2, Drawn 1
Deportivo: Won 2, Lost 2
Valencia: Won 1, Drawn 3

Could be wrong though.
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Nah, it's

Real: 1 United win, 1 draw, 2 Real wins
Deportivo: 3 United wins, 3 Deportivo wins (last Deportivo win was against our reserves...)
Valencia: 1 United win, 3 draws

Of course, we played Barca 5 times in the 90's - 1 win, 3 draws, 1 defeat.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Nah, it's

Real: 1 United win, 1 draw, 2 Real wins
Deportivo: 3 United wins, 3 Deportivo wins (last Deportivo win was against our reserves...)
Valencia: 1 United win, 3 draws

Of course, we played Barca 5 times in the 90's - 1 win, 3 draws, 1 defeat.
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So, it's Won 6, Drawn 7, Lost 6

Sounds pretty equal to me.
 
Cal said:
DJS, thanks for the Final records for the last 15 seasons, but perhaps you'd like to look at the SF records in the last 10 years as you suggested.

IT seems that Juve & Milan make it to the very end if they get their acts together, but if they crash out, they crash out very early.

Juve have made it further than United only ONCE in the last 5 years, how are they better than United in the CL?? :confused:
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Right, so you've selected the last 5 years as an example to look at.

Why was it 5 years? Surely not just because that's the number of years that best suits your argument? :D

Juve 4 finals in modern era, Milan 6, Man Utd 1.

End of.
 
WeasteDevil said:
So, it's Won 6, Drawn 7, Lost 6

Sounds pretty equal to me.
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But the CL isnt just made up of Spanish teams and Man Utd.

Overall, when taking everything into consideration, i'd fancy the chances of Milan, Juve and Real far more than yours, in this year's competition.
 
Suedesi said:
Second best record in CL?

Did not know that, but seems surprising considering Milan have won it 6 times and are still behind United on points who have won it twice.

Or are you talking about 93 onwards?
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CL....ie post European Cup.

Yes, I think that's 93 onwards..

We've got a great record.


Would be interesting to see who's got the best overall European Cup/Champions League record...(1955? onwards? )


United'll be there or thereabouts this season aswell..... with a bit of luck, who know's we may even win it....
 
Re_Deus said:
England's top 3, Man Utd, Chelski and Arsenal are superior to any Italian team. Facts speak for themselves - Man Utd easily beat Juve twice last season, while Arsenal and Chelski slaughtered the Italian lambs that were brought to them.
England's finest against Spain's best is another matter altogether, though.
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Yeah right!!!
I put Milan, Juve and United at the same level...

Arsenal could not even get a draw to Juve's second string two years ago, and Chelsea is a game made up of a few good British players and Serie A and La Liga rejects. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
To be fair i'd hardly call Mutu, Makalele or Crespo rejects.
 
JSV said:
To be fair i'd hardly call Mutu, Makalele or Crespo rejects.
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Mutu is the only player I would not.

Makelele - getting his last fat paycheck in the PL.
Crespo - touted since forever to be Batistuta's heir, but has been poor since the WC. Don't think he is doing miracles with Chelsea either.
 
Suedesi said:
Mutu is the only player I would not.

Makelele - getting his last fat paycheck in the PL.
Crespo - touted since forever to be Batistuta's heir, but has been poor since the WC. Don't think he is doing miracles with Chelsea either.
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Makalele is still recognised as being one of the best defensive midfielders in the world. He's not that old for a player of his type and was bought for a very hefty sum. He is no Deschamps. The same applies to Crespo who I don't think Vieri was too happy about leaving. The whole reject thing is subjective anyway. Kovacevic failed miserably at Sheffield Wednesday and then went on to play for Juve (although he failed there too). Savo Milosevic was just as bad but is now one of the top strikers in the so called best league in the world. I think the days when English teams could only attract second rate talent are gone to be honest.
 
Let's see...

Carlo Cudicini [Good Italian player who never made it in Serie A]
Winston Bogarde [Shite Milan/Barca reject]
Marcel Desailly [Milan has been; came to Chelsea to retire]
Claude Makelele [Real surplus]
Mario Stanic [Lazio/Parma reject]
Emmanuel Petit [Barca reject]
Juan Sebastian Veron [welllllllll]
Geremi[Real reject]
Adrian Mutu [good fecking player]

+ a bunch of good British players.
 
A question for the thread starter.

For the sake of the arguement, I am assuming you have a job.

Lets say that a bigger company writes you a letter. In this letter they state that they want you to work for them, they will pay you a lot more money than you are on now, they will allow you to compete in a market that you were unable to have access to before because your company did not have enough clout, they will give you better working conditions, better training and better bonuses. You will also recieve improved insurance, life cover, health cover and benefits. You will have access to work related conditions that allow other companiers to see you in a better light, do you:

a) Tell them to fook off because you owe your very existance to your current employer

b) Tell them that you will think about it, discuss it with your employer and request a transfer that will be mutually beneficial because YOU want to fulfill your potential and be the best you can be.


Unfortunately, your employer thinks you owe him and gets really shirty about it, does not want you to leave and fulfill your potential, does not want you to be happy and insists thay you tow the line, do you:


a) Tell him you are sorry and promise you will never have aspirations to better yourself again.

b) Tell him to fook off, and be the best you can be, because it is your life.



What would you do?
 
DJS said:
But the CL isnt just made up of Spanish teams and Man Utd.

Overall, when taking everything into consideration, i'd fancy the chances of Milan, Juve and Real far more than yours, in this year's competition.
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So, if United were to meet Juve or AC Milan, you don't think we stand much chance?
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
So, if United were to meet Juve or AC Milan, you don't think we stand much chance?
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I think that we would beat them.
 
If you look at our feckups, it's largely been against a German team, or Real Madrid.
 
DJS, you cannot look at it in so simple a fasion. Over the last 10 years, how many times have we been knocked out by an eventual finalist, and also, mainly through serious cockups on the night?

How many times have we actually beaten an eventual finalist quite comprehnsively along the way?

Knockout football is a funny thing, as I'm sure that you will see this coming weekend in the FA Cup.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
So, if United were to meet Juve or AC Milan, you don't think we stand much chance?
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Most teams in the CL now can beat any of the others on any given day, so of course you'd stand a chance.

But in the bigger scheme of things, taking everything into account, i simply do not think you'll win the CL.
 
WeasteDevil said:
DJS, you cannot look at it in so simple a fasion. Over the last 10 years, how many times have we been knocked out by an eventual finalist, and also, mainly through serious cockups on the night?

How many times have we actually beaten an eventual finalist quite comprehnsively along the way?

Knockout football is a funny thing, as I'm sure that you will see this coming weekend in the FA Cup.
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I know what you're saying weaste, but what every way you wish to express it, the fact is that you HAVE only managed 1 final in the past 15 years.

Whatever the reasons, i doubt it's been NOTHING to do with not being good enough at any one (or more) given things, required to get to the final of, or win the CL.
 
DJS said:
I know what you're saying weaste, but what every way you wish to express it, the fact is that you HAVE only managed 1 final in the past xx years.
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I'd Be careful with the xx year comment if I were you. For obvious reasons.
 
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