Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[amolbhatia50k]

The more I read about that fiasco, the more I think it was a setup. Prior to the media meeting, Zelensky had been presented with an adapted deal, without any security guarantees. It was probably a matter of 'sign that or we'll maul you on live tv' (without necessarily explicitly saying that).

It absolutely was. They want to make Ukraine look like the one's derailing everything so that they can justify their alignment with Russia.

The fact that the whole thing blew up when Vance lied about the war and reacted to being fact checked with defensive mumbo jumbo about morality, made it even more obvious.

 

[Semper Fudge]

My gf (who knows nothing of whats going on, and was largely unbiased) watched a clip with me. First comment was, "why is zelensky acting like he's on drugs"(saying this just to show she is unbiased). And then she kept listening. When Vance started spouting bile, her opinion sharply turned around and frustratingly asked me "why is this f*ggot (implying he's gay) attacking him (zelensky)". When they started talking over Zelensky, she was visibly upset: "why are they so rude!?". Few more moments and she couldn't watch it anymore. Then she concluded it must be a setup.

So that's how she reacted. Initial dislike of Zelensky, to complete turn around. Most fun part for me was how she instinctively guessed Vance is gay. Apparently he "thought" he was gay and went on dates with other men.

That's your masculinity MAGA.

Your girlfriend sounds like a real charmer. Christ.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Jotun]

Your girlfriend sounds like a real charmer. Christ.

She is. And are you saying Vance doesn't deserve to be called f*ggot?

 

[nimic]

She is. And are you saying Vance doesn't deserve to be called f*ggot. Although due to language barrier, there may be some difference in understanding, so let me explain. It is also sometimes still used as derogatory, depending on the context, tone, etc. It is also sometimes used as an insult without homosexual vibe. Like a scumb*g.In this case it was meant derogatory as a scumb*g and also gay, with one word. She hit it spot on IMHO.

This explanation didn't make it any better. The reason it's bad is because she used gay as an insult.

 

[Semper Fudge]

She is. And are you saying Vance doesn't deserve to be called f*ggot?

I think using it as an insult like that shows a lack of intelligence, but you do you.

 

[Jotun]

I think using it as an insult like that shows a lack of intelligence, but you do you.

What lack of intelligence? Vance thought he was gay.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jd-vance-went-thinking-gay-175422585.html

Went on dates with men. Plus he is also a dirtbag. She got him spot on with one word.

Edit: let me clarify, there is nothing wrong with being gay. There is plenty wrong with being JD Vance.

 

[Spark]

She is. And are you saying Vance doesn't deserve to be called f*ggot?

If you’re so comfortable with the word, why are you starring out the a?

 

[Solius]

My gf (who knows nothing of whats going on, and was largely unbiased) watched a clip with me. First comment was, "why is zelensky acting like he's on drugs"(saying this just to show she is unbiased). And then she kept listening. When Vance started spouting bile, her opinion sharply turned around and frustratingly asked me "why is this f*ggot (implying he's gay) attacking him (zelensky)". When they started talking over Zelensky, she was visibly upset: "why are they so rude!?". Few more moments and she couldn't watch it anymore. Then she concluded it must be a setup.

So that's how she reacted. Initial dislike of Zelensky, to complete turn around. Most fun part for me was how she instinctively guessed Vance is gay. Apparently he "thought" he was gay and went on dates with other men.

That's your masculinity MAGA.

Your gf is upset that someone is rude but is happy to use that word?

 

[sullydnl]

 

[SilentWitness]

What lack of intelligence? Vance thought he was gay.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jd-vance-went-thinking-gay-175422585.html

Went on dates with men. Plus he is also a dirtbag. She got him spot on with one word.

Edit: let me clarify, there is nothing wrong with being gay. There is plenty wrong with being JD Vance.

If you think there is nothing wrong with being gay but also think that using that word is okay, then Sempers assessment of you is pretty spot on.

 

[Kinsella]

I remember reading an interesting article about the `Orange Revolution` in Ukraine on www.opendemocracy.net back then. You can still find it online and I think it gives another angle to that event and others. The author was Sreeram Chaulia and it was written in 2006. It`s called `Democratization, NGOs and `colour revolutions``.

There`s other information online about this kind of debate. I don`t have any personal connection to the Ukraine or Russia but I do like to find as many different sources on any kind of significant events taking place from different political perspectives. Wars, upheavals, historical events all are much more nuanced than we know.

Indeed they are but sadly that won’t resonate much here.

I’d urge people to watch Jeffrey Sachs’ speech at the EU parliament last week to get a deeper, more historical perspective on this disastrous and avoidable war. I have to issue a caution though: he’s excoriating about American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War…which won’t play well with those who believe and prefer those simple supplied narratives.

 

[Simbo]

Does Vance drive a Harley?

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

Putinjugend boy JD deserves a lifetime supply of milk from Mother Russia breast for that cameo in Oval Office. Let’s petition to the Tzar

 

[Jotun]

Your gf is upset that someone is rude but is happy to use that word?

You never swear? You do understand the difference in context between saying something in private to your partner and acting like Vance in oval office in front of foreign dignitaries.

If you think there is nothing wrong with being gay but also think that using that word is okay, then Sempers assessment of you is pretty spot on.

Okay, english is not my primary language. In my country it's usage is fairly often just like f*ck word, but origin is derogatory. It's often used in non-derogatory way and I know a gay person that uses it as normal word to describe gay people.

However, I don't want to triple down and as english is not my first language, I would like to be educated on how I it is inapropriate and differences between my language and culture.

To not derail the thread anymore. Can I get replies in PM.

Thank you.

 

[dinostar77]

How on earth did the war in Ukraine become about minerals?!!

Jesus!

It always was from the very beginning. Most wars are about access to resources. There are finite supplies of rare earth minerals which people want to control and they happen to generate a huge amount of money.

Plus you (USA) cant go to war with china over Taiwan, if they control 75% of the world's supply of rare earth minerals. 49 of those minerals being key for you own manufacturing of all sorts of stuff.

Deals with Ukraine, and eventual deals to get access to the rare earth minerals in Greenland etc take away your dependency on china.

 

[harms]

It always was from the very beginning. Most wars are about access to resources. There are finite supplies of rare earth minerals which people want to control and they happen to generate a huge amount of money.

Plus you (USA) cant go to war with china over Taiwan, if they control 75% of the world's supply of rare earth minerals. 49 of those minerals being key for you own manufacturing of all sorts of stuff.

Deals with Ukraine, and eventual deals to get access to the rare earth minerals in Greenland etc take away your dependency on china.

Jesus, it really wasn't. Just because Trump got this bright idea now (well, Zelenskyy did but Trump's administration twisted it to the point where it's barely recognizable) it doesn't mean that the war that was started many years ago (11 years ago to be exact, 3 years is just the full-scale invasion) by the completely other guy in another country with a completely different set of motivations happened because of it.

 

[ryansgirl]

Indeed they are but sadly that won’t resonate much here.

I’d urge people to watch Jeffrey Sachs’ speech at the EU parliament last week to get a deeper, more historical perspective on this disastrous and avoidable war. I have to issue a caution though: he’s excoriating about American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War…which won’t play well with those who believe and prefer those simple supplied narratives.

Thanks for that, very thought provoking. I didn`t like the staged dressing down of Zelensky in the Oval Office and the bull-at-a-gate way Trump and Vance are going about this is very concerning.

I don`t support the Russian invasion of the Ukraine but the narratives that ignore the years building up to this and the American role in all this are contributing to a new arms race of billions upon billions to the Ukraine along with the billions upon billions to Israel and possibly billions upon billions to Taiwan coming soon. Zelensky`s call for a European Army is disturbing too, the younger generations of Europe will be the ones sent to die and be maimed if political brakes are not applied just like those young Americans, Australians, NZealanders and others in South Korea and Vietnam. As well as in Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc. Along with civilians.

We all have to learn from the past and recent past. President Obama is widely admired but as Watergate journalist Bob Woodward pointed out in his book Obama`s Wars, there was a rise in American involvement in wars in the ME and Levant due to his administration`s policies, often secretly by arming militias, including extremists in Libya who overthrew Gadafi and had connections with organisations such as Al Quaeda. The chaos funded and encouraged by the US saw its Ambassador to Libya murdered with Obama and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton openly lying on TV and to the media, shamelessly attributing all this to the burning of a Koran.

This is an incredibly dangerous time in our lives but I think the Russia-Ukraine situation cannot be understood in its entirety nor resolved without this terrifying arms race by behaving as if it is another pre WW2/WW2 situation except in our time.

 

[Jotun]

Jesus, it really wasn't. Just because Trump got this bright idea now (well, Zelenskyy did but Trump's administration twisted it to the point where it's barely recognizable) it doesn't mean that the war that was started many years ago (11 years ago to be exact, 3 years is just the full-scale invasion) by the completely other guy in another country with a completely different set of motivations happened because of it.

Harms, what would you say is original motivation for annexing crimea and instigating donbass insurrection.

My feeling is that it was retaliatory for euromaidan and ousting of Yanukovich, as if Putin took it personally.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[TwoSheds]

Thanks for that, very thought provoking. I didn`t like the staged dressing down of Zelensky in the Oval Office and the bull-at-a-gate way Trump and Vance are going about this is very concerning.

I don`t support the Russian invasion of the Ukraine but the narratives that ignore the years building up to this and the American role in all this are contributing to a new arms race of billions upon billions to the Ukraine along with the billions upon billions to Israel and possibly billions upon billions to Taiwan coming soon. Zelensky`s call for a European Army is disturbing too, the younger generations of Europe will be the ones sent to die and be maimed if political brakes are not applied just like those young Americans, Australians, NZealanders and others in South Korea and Vietnam. As well as in Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc. Along with civilians.

We all have to learn from the past and recent past. President Obama is widely admired but as Watergate journalist Bob Woodward pointed out in his book Obama`s Wars, there was a rise in American involvement in wars in the ME and Levant due to his administration`s policies, often secretly by arming militias, including extremists in Libya who overthrew Gadafi and had connections with organisations such as Al Quaeda. The chaos funded and encouraged by the US saw its Ambassador to Libya murdered with Obama and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton openly lying on TV and to the media, shamelessly attributing all this to the burning of a Koran.

This is an incredibly dangerous time in our lives but I think the Russia-Ukraine situation cannot be understood in its entirety nor resolved without this terrifying arms race by behaving as if it is another pre WW2/WW2 situation except in our time.

The rise of fascism/authoritarianism around the world is largely a result of disillusioning domestic policy and economic circumstances, not foreign policy. Of course foreign policy can play a role but most of these conflicts are about authoritarian regimes clashing, with not enough decent, stable governments to prevent it.

End of the day we could blame Putin's difficult childhood or his vitamin D deficiency, but whatever reasons you want to throw out don't excuse you invading a neighbouring country and committing war crimes hand over fist. Doesn't mean they're not true or interesting but they are merely a side discussion once you've done what he has done.

 

[moses]

Why are you making this about Zelensky? Any support is t for him personally, it's for Ukraine as a country.

It's easier to create panto villains than to analyse things properly. If it just becomes name calling and insults, it levels the playing field. It's been a media trick for years, and now every second commentator on any subject online uses the same tabloid hackery. There is very little real discussion on so many topics.

 

[klsv]

Thanks for that, very thought provoking. I didn`t like the staged dressing down of Zelensky in the Oval Office and the bull-at-a-gate way Trump and Vance are going about this is very concerning.

I don`t support the Russian invasion of the Ukraine but the narratives that ignore the years building up to this and the American role in all this are contributing to a new arms race of billions upon billions to the Ukraine along with the billions upon billions to Israel and possibly billions upon billions to Taiwan coming soon. Zelensky`s call for a European Army is disturbing too, the younger generations of Europe will be the ones sent to die and be maimed if political brakes are not applied just like those young Americans, Australians, NZealanders and others in South Korea and Vietnam. As well as in Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc. Along with civilians.

We all have to learn from the past and recent past. President Obama is widely admired but as Watergate journalist Bob Woodward pointed out in his book Obama`s Wars, there was a rise in American involvement in wars in the ME and Levant due to his administration`s policies, often secretly by arming militias, including extremists in Libya who overthrew Gadafi and had connections with organisations such as Al Quaeda. The chaos funded and encouraged by the US saw its Ambassador to Libya murdered with Obama and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton openly lying on TV and to the media, shamelessly attributing all this to the burning of a Koran.

This is an incredibly dangerous time in our lives but I think the Russia-Ukraine situation cannot be understood in its entirety nor resolved without this terrifying arms race by behaving as if it is another pre WW2/WW2 situation except in our time.

There are literally only a few countries in eastern Europe who have never had Russian or Soviet tanks on their soil. At best it's been a short lived blood bath, at worst an occupation lasting for decades. After the Soviet Union collapsed, a lot of these countries knew they will have to join the EU and/or NATO as soon as possible, to be safe from Russia. Especially after Yeltsin got replaced by Putin. It was always their own choice not a plot by the CIA. You don't sound like a zizek or a chomsky while spouting shite like "well the US foreign policy...geopolitics...err...insecurities". Instead you sound like someone who knows nothing about what's going on in the eastern parts of Europe today or what went down 20, 50 or 100 years ago. The younger people will suffer? I was born under the Russian occupation and now I can't be entirely sure I'm not back under it before I turn 40.

 

[dinostar77]

Jesus, it really wasn't. Just because Trump got this bright idea now (well, Zelenskyy did but Trump's administration twisted it to the point where it's barely recognizable) it doesn't mean that the war that was started many years ago (11 years ago to be exact, 3 years is just the full-scale invasion) by the completely other guy in another country with a completely different set of motivations happened because of it.

Here's a video with 20 Million views from 3 years ago explaining why Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine have 2 trillion cubic tons on natural gas on their coastline, which hasn't been exploited. This discovery was made in 2012 and would have made Ukraine Europe's 2nd largest petrol chemical state.



Go to 12:45min

Add to that Ukraine have 22 of 34 minerals identified as critical by the EU. A portion of that now controlled by Russia as is the untapped natural gas.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/28/mapping-ukraines-rare-earth-and-critical-minerals

It's always been about resources, whether they are rare minerals, gas or oil.

 

[Jotun]

Here's a video with 20 Million views from 3 years ago explaining why Russia invaded Ukraine.

So you are telling Russian why Russia invaded Ukraine?

 

[Red Star One]

Here's a video with 20 Million views from 3 years ago explaining why Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine have 2 trillion cubic tons on natural gas on their coastline, which hasn't been exploited. This discovery was made in 2012 and would have made Ukraine Europe's 2nd largest petrol chemical state.



Go to 12:45min

Add to that Ukraine have 22 of 34 minerals identified as critical by the EU. A portion of that now controlled by Russia as is the untapped natural gas.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/28/mapping-ukraines-rare-earth-and-critical-minerals

It's always been about resources, whether they are rare minerals, gas or oil.

I don’t think you should explain origins of this conflict to Russian through a popular YT video also losing access to selling resources by Russia, which they already have shitload of, losing Nord Stream and all that doesn’t seem like a great trade of for Russia in a pure resource grab. It really wasn’t just that

 

[stefan92]

I don’t think you should explain origins of this conflict to Russian through a popular YT video also losing access to selling resources by Russia, which they already have shitload of, losing Nord Stream and all that doesn’t seem like a great trade of for Russia in a pure resource grab. It really wasn’t just that

Russia does have enough resources, but was interested in getting rid of competition. Losing Nord Stream was definitely not part of Russian plans.

 

[Schmiznurf]

She is. And are you saying Vance doesn't deserve to be called f*ggot?

Nobody does. And if you think it's ok then you're no better than Vance in the bigotry department.

 

[Jotun]

Russia does have enough resources, but was interested in getting rid of competition. Losing Nord Stream was definitely not part of Russian plans.

It may have been a side benefit, at best. But the real reason is, Putin doesn't think Ukraine should be independent and should firmly be in Russian sphere of influence.

In his essay he says:" I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. "

I think, there is no calculating logic in this war from Putin. I think it is driven purely by emotion. Whatever gains Russia gets, will be minor compared to damage it already suffered economically, demographically and in terms of international relations. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Jotun]

Nobody does. And if you think it's ok then you're no better than Vance in the bigotry department.

Thank you for your reply.
I would be happy to be educated on differences in language per this post.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rus...r-tweets-more-discussion.468216/post-33009321

 

[nimic]

You never swear? You do understand the difference in context between saying something in private to your partner and acting like Vance in oval office in front of foreign dignitaries.


Okay, english is not my primary language. In my country it's usage is fairly often just like f*ck word, but origin is derogatory. It's often used in non-derogatory way and I know a gay person that uses it as normal word to describe gay people.

However, I don't want to triple down and as english is not my first language, I would like to be educated on how I it is inapropriate and differences between my language and culture.

To not derail the thread anymore. Can I get replies in PM.

Thank you.

Where are you from?

 

[Kinsella]

The rise of fascism/authoritarianism around the world is largely a result of disillusioning domestic policy and economic circumstances, not foreign policy.

That’s mostly true. I’d also add significant cultural and social change into the mix but these are discussions for another thread.

End of the day we could blame Putin's difficult childhood or his vitamin D deficiency,

These are not petty, trivial or insignificant factors though, like the distractions you’ve mentioned. They’re the opposite. Not only that but they’re factors which people on this side of the world should be in control of.

but whatever reasons you want to throw out don't excuse you invading a neighbouring country and committing war crimes hand over fist.

Who’s excusing it?

Doesn't mean they're not true or interesting but they are merely a side discussion once you've done what he has done.

They’re not a side discussion because Russia isn’t going anywhere. Do you think that if this is sorted to the satisfaction of the majority of Ukrainians (which is highly improbable now) that Russia is just going to go away or something?

 

[Frosty]

Where are you from?

The 1970s.

 

[Semper Fudge]

Thank you for your reply.
I would be happy to be educated on differences in language per this post.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rus...r-tweets-more-discussion.468216/post-33009321

A cursory internet search of the word would "educate" you; there is no possible way you can be this ignorant of the word's history.

 

[ryansgirl]

The rise of fascism/authoritarianism around the world is largely a result of disillusioning domestic policy and economic circumstances, not foreign policy. Of course foreign policy can play a role but most of these conflicts are about authoritarian regimes clashing, with not enough decent, stable governments to prevent it.

End of the day we could blame Putin's difficult childhood or his vitamin D deficiency, but whatever reasons you want to throw out don't excuse you invading a neighbouring country and committing war crimes hand over fist. Doesn't mean they're not true or interesting but they are merely a side discussion once you've done what he has done.

Relevant points, thanks for reading mine and giving this perspective.

 

[harms]

Harms, what would you say is original motivation for annexing crimea and instigating donbass insurrection.

My feeling is that it was retaliatory for euromaidan and ousting of Yanukovich, as if Putin took it personally.

Mostly that. He always perceived Ukraine as something that'll be, essentially, a satellite state but the second Maidan was both the last straw for him & the perfect window of opportunity to act, with the country basically divided between two political camps.

 

[TwoSheds]

That’s mostly true. I’d also add significant cultural and social change into the mix but these are discussions for another thread.


These are not petty, trivial or insignificant factors though, like the distractions you’ve mentioned. They’re the opposite. Not only that but they’re factors which people on this side of the world should be in control of.


Who’s excusing it?


They’re not a side discussion because Russia isn’t going anywhere. Do you think that if this is sorted to the satisfaction of the majority of Ukrainians (which is highly improbable now) that Russia is just going to go away or something?

Putin dies or is deaded, that is the way Russia will change. He doesn't respect you for giving in, only for fighting back, this war was always going to happen once Putin had taken over the government and become completely unaccountable. Trying to play nicely with him only makes things worse.

 

[moses]

Who’s excusing it?

The post that poster was replying to did seem to be mitigating blame, with special mentions for exclusively Democrat Presidents of the US.

Everyone knows the global order is complicated and multifaceted, and frequently reaches back into an even more complicated past but certain people do have agency that can shape things by their actions.

 

[Kinsella]

Putin dies or is deaded, that is the way Russia will change. He doesn't respect you for giving in, only for fighting back, this war was always going to happen once Putin had taken over the government and become completely unaccountable. Trying to play nicely with him only makes things worse.

Really…so Russia’s entire political culture is going to die with one man? That’s wishful thinking in the extreme.

And if he is ‘deaded’ have you considered the possibility that he could be replaced by someone worse?

 

[harms]

Here's a video with 20 Million views from 3 years ago explaining why Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine have 2 trillion cubic tons on natural gas on their coastline, which hasn't been exploited. This discovery was made in 2012 and would have made Ukraine Europe's 2nd largest petrol chemical state.



Go to 12:45min

Add to that Ukraine have 22 of 34 minerals identified as critical by the EU. A portion of that now controlled by Russia as is the untapped natural gas.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/28/mapping-ukraines-rare-earth-and-critical-minerals

It's always been about resources, whether they are rare minerals, gas or oil.

We've discussed this at length multiple times here, this video specifically and the premise as a whole (I'm pretty sure that we did it with you). Just because Ukraine has these resources it doesn't mean that they're the reason behind the invasion. Russia has enough resources of its own (if we're talking natural gas, for example, it held around 24% of the entire world's proven natural gas reserves according to OPEC) — it's issue is not their availability, it's building the infrastructure to excavate, refine and sell/use them. This war, which by default meant way more economic sanctions, way more military spending, the potential loss of Europe as Russia's main market for natural gas etc., never made sense from an economical perspective, not even close. Even in Putin's idealistic best case scenario.