So, DT12 posts basically say that Ukrainians are puppets of the Americans and the Russians invaded Ukraine in order to liberate the Ukrainians from the Americans? Or else kill those who do not want to be liberated. Because if they don't want to be liberated by Russians, then obviously they are brainwashed by Americans to think they are not Russians and they should die.
In other words, basically Ukraine is currently populated by two kinds of people: Russians living in Ukraine who want Russia to win, and brainwashed nazis who the puppets of Americans like the Nazi-Jew Zelenskyy.
Did I get this correctly?
Ukrainians are dying senselessly instead of just giving up. Am I doing this right?
Yep, that is basically it. That and a boast about how the fully mobilized Ukrainian army is getting decimated by Russia's "peacetime army". You don't want to see what they're like when they really mean it!!!So, DT12 posts basically say that Ukrainians are puppets of the Americans and the Russians invaded Ukraine in order to liberate the Ukrainians from the Americans? Or else kill those who do not want to be liberated. Because if they don't want to be liberated by Russians, then obviously they are brainwashed by Americans to think they are not Russians and they should die.
In other words, basically Ukraine is currently populated by two kinds of people: Russians living in Ukraine who want Russia to win, and brainwashed nazis who the puppets of Americans like the Nazi-Jew Zelenskyy.
Did I get this correctly?
Yup.DT12 basically says there are no Ukrainians. There are:
1. Russians in the Russian state of Ukraine. Who are saved by the Russian army.
2. Nazis/puppets/brainwashed in the Russian state of Ukraine. Who die senseless deaths instead of accepting they are basically Russians, too.
So, if I say our sun is going to die by the end of June, and actually it doesn't but it will SOMEDAY, technically, I'm still right?
Ukrainians are dying senselessly instead of just giving up. Am I doing this right?
Mental gymnastics some will try just to justify Russian invasion is astonishing.
I'm not in agreement with @DT12 here but I think these silly posts is why folks are hesitant to voice an opinion on this thread. Some time ago I talked about a resolution and the cost of war and look at where that ended. I think its clear his general prediction of Donbas falling to Russia by the end of June was more or less correct. Maybe it's mid July but the prediction wasn't that far off
Frankly I don't know how anyone can spend a week sunning themselves on a Greek island when Ukrainians are dying for your freedom. That money could have helped so many Ukrainians.
You however do not have that intellectual capacity, hence all the absolute shite you retweet on here.
I'm sorry but some of his takes are horrible, don't have any other word for it. Russian propaganda at its finest. From his posts you'd think Ukraine attacked Russia, not the other way around. His posts are as much silly as mine if not sillier.I'm not in agreement with @DT12 here but I think these silly posts is why folks are hesitant to voice an opinion on this thread. Some time ago I talked about a resolution and the cost of war and look at where that ended. I think its clear his general prediction of Donbas falling to Russia by the end of June was more or less correct. Maybe it's mid July but the prediction wasn't that far off
The bolded is literally all that matters and I'm proud of you for that. Respectfully, the rest is you having a dialogue with your ego.I said that Donbas would fall to Russia by the end of June. It's unlikely to happen by then. Nevertheless Donbas falling sooner rather than later is looking inevitable. So my prediction of the timing was wrong. My prediction of the eventual outcome was not, in my opinion (and frankly, in everyone's opinion whose name is not Boris or Liz). So I admit to being wrong in my prediction about the end of June. Now then, would you like me to show you some posts from earlier in this thread about how the Russian army would collapse in weeks? Or that Putin's dying of everything from cancer to ebola? You've scored a great victory with my being off about the timing of Donbas capitulating, but while you're laughing about it, more Ukrainians are going to senselessly die because certain actors (!) have convinced you that they stand a chance of winning, so be prepared to go poorer while the usual suspects get vastly wealthier. I don't know if you're from an EU country mate but if you are I'm gonna let you in on a little secret: the US and the UK are absolutely laughing their arses off at what you're doing to yourselves right now.
I'm sorry but some of his takes are horrible, don't have any other word for it. Russian propaganda at its finest. From his posts you'd think Ukraine attacked Russia, not the other way around. His posts are as much silly as mine if not sillier.
I mean, Ukrainians are dying senseslly, a Russian peacetime army, Russian war machine is decimating Ukrainians. Bloody hell. Its as if he's rooting for them, legitimate opinion but I'll call it for what it is.
so you found no problem at all with dt12's post and this was what needed to be addressed.It is their peacetime army, though? There's been endless talk about this on here, how Putin can't mobilize and how soldiers can legally refuse to go fight because this isn't officially a war. If it was a war (it is, of course, but not officially in Russia. It's a "special operation") then they would have way more soldiers available.
It's more the matter of him pointing out how their peacetime army decimating Ukrainian army at full strength. Not the fact its a peacetime army per se.It is their peacetime army, though? There's been endless talk about this on here, how Putin can't mobilize and how soldiers can legally refuse to go fight because this isn't officially a war. If it was a war (it is, of course, but not officially in Russia. It's a "special operation") then they would have way more soldiers available.
how has Putin being fecking with western democracy? it's a minor tangent but I don't know what that means. the two examples usually given are the 2016 US election and Brexit. neither of those examples are legitimate or "true". if you mean undermining in other ways then that might be true.Yeah Putin's been fecking with our democracies for years mate - quite successfully. The idea that being his friend is a good thing is not something I'm ever going to believe. He's a baddie, and a really fecking bad one at that. Stalin bad. All of these puppet masters in the US who can't even control their own elections have magically mind controlled all of the Ukrainian populus purely because they hate Russia for absolutely no reason, seems legit.
so you found no problem at all with dt12's post and this was what needed to be addressed.
It's more the matter of him pointing out how their peacetime army decimating Ukrainian army at full strength. Not the fact its a peacetime army per se.
how has Putin being fecking with western democracy? it's a minor tangent but I don't know what that means. the two examples usually given are the 2016 US election and Brexit. neither of those examples are legitimate or "true". if you mean undermining in other ways then that might be true.
yeah but none of that convinces. it comes down to a few social media campaigns. and then some questions about funding. but it was british representatives who led the brexit debate. the russian story was convenient to many but it's mostly bullshit. just like the US equivalent which we now know is almost entirely fabricated beyond an incredibly small scale trolling operation. if twitter were that influential Corbyn wold have won 2019 by a landslide.Surely this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_British_politics
https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-c...6010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf
The UK Government prohibited the ISC from looking at Russian interference with the 2016 referendum.
for a dumb mass audience whose reading ability extends no further than a tweet thread.
notice how the 3 Ukrainians have their heads dutifully bowed, not even any pens and paper in front of them, while their American handlers are giving them their orders
Further, I know that most of the people in this thread who are salivating at the thought of all these new lovely weapons coming to Ukraine are doing so not because they care about Ukraine
Their support of America's and the UK's strategy of "let the Ukrainians die as slowly as possible so as to weaken Russia as much as possible" is not out of concern for Ukrainians, it's out of concern for having more and more war to watch.
I know that the EU did not prepare for the possibility of this war dragging on the way that it has, and this is going to cost them a catastrophic amount.
I know that the EU did not prepare for the possibility of this war dragging on the way that it has, and this is going to cost them a catastrophic amount. The EU was extremely bold and aggressive in their sanctions against Russia, believing (they directly stated this) that it would cripple the Russian economy and therefore the Russian war machine within 3 months. A minor timing issue with disastrous consequences. Now they are in a position where they cannot admit the sanctions are not working and so are just going to keep on driving over the cliff, with unelected morons (von der Leyen, Borrell, Michel et al) doing the driving.
Those are the things I know. What I believe (but naturally don't know) is that Ukraine can't win this war. Everyone (Johnson mainly) who says they can refuses to define 'win' in this context. Pushing Russia out of Donbas and/or Crimea? It will never happen, and they know it.
how has Putin being fecking with western democracy? it's a minor tangent but I don't know what that means. the two examples usually given are the 2016 US election and Brexit. neither of those examples are legitimate or "true". if you mean undermining in other ways then that might be true.
yeah but it was Clinton who was responsible for the conspiracy theories in 2016 insofar as stolen elections go. that's now being verified by court proceedings. i've never really seen any real solid examples of russian misinformation campaigns. they're always cited and never proven. also, i'd like to see statistics on the influence the russians exerted on brexit. i doubt there are any because it's mostly an ideological argument without any knowable or reliable proof. did the russians blackmail cameron into calling a referendum? or blackmail the british press into running right wing propaganda? i really don't think so.For decades now, and on a massive-scale, Russia has been pumping misinformation and lies into the West using a wide variety of channels and means. This has aimed to undermine faith in democracy, foster cynicism, widen social divisions, muddy the waters and generally sow confusion, strife and chaos. It has done this by trying to persuade people that almost anything could be true (no matter how bizarre the conspiracy theories, many of them started by Russia), that almost nothing can be relied on as truth, and that truth itself is a moveable feast and entirely malleable.
And yes, that has included influencing Brexit, the Trump election in 2016, Trump's lies about the 2020 being stolen, QAnon, the Alt-Right etc etc etc.
Generally I tend to appreciate your input (while disagreeing with you on most of the points) as a kind of a balancing act to an obviously one-sided coverage of the conflict (since Russia doesn't even try to compete with Ukraine in the actual information war, instead limiting itself to spatting out baseless and toxic propaganda) but this is an absolute car wreck of a post filled with conspiracies theories (like USA literally controlling every move that Zelenskiy makes) & far-fetched arguments (like Russia not giving any time scale of the operation being interpreted in a way that they predicted the way that this conflict was going to go and didn't intend to take Kiyv in the first weeks).Yes, I think I do. I know, for example, that this war did not begin on February 24th 2022. I know that if you go to Victoria "F*ck the EU" Nuland's Wikipedia page (I don't know how to post images here), you will see that the 2nd picture on the right was taken on February 1st 2014...
...
Yeah, been a while since I added one to the ignore list. Mask has slipped and now we just get all the classic conspiracies. Here we go!Did you miss the following?
how has Putin being fecking with western democracy? it's a minor tangent but I don't know what that means. the two examples usually given are the 2016 US election and Brexit. neither of those examples are legitimate or "true". if you mean undermining in other ways then that might be true.
yeah but none of that convinces. it comes down to a few social media campaigns. and then some questions about funding. but it was british representatives who led the brexit debate. the russian story was convenient to many but it's mostly bullshit. just like the US equivalent which we now know is almost entirely fabricated beyond an incredibly small scale trolling operation. if twitter were that influential Corbyn wold have won 2019 by a landslide.
i mean the Russians, through the oligarchs, have been funding the ruling elite in the west for decades. that would be the primary source of interference but that isn't what people mean usually when they talk about interference. their supposed state influence has been tiny as far as I can tell. the American right has arguably had a far greater influence on European democracies than Russia. they were in Orban's hungary just the other week organising around their now well founded transatlantic right-wing solidarity campaign at which Trump gave a speech iirc.
yeah but none of that convinces. it comes down to a few social media campaigns. and then some questions about funding. but it was british representatives who led the brexit debate. the russian story was convenient to many but it's mostly bullshit. just like the US equivalent which we now know is almost entirely fabricated beyond an incredibly small scale trolling operation. if twitter were that influential Corbyn wold have won 2019 by a landslide.
i mean the Russians, through the oligarchs, have been funding the ruling elite in the west for decades. that would be the primary source of interference but that isn't what people mean usually when they talk about interference. their supposed state influence has been tiny as far as I can tell. the American right has arguably had a far greater influence on European democracies than Russia. they were in Orban's hungary just the other week organising around their now well founded transatlantic right-wing solidarity campaign at which Trump gave a speech iirc.
He corrected a mistake in a post pointing out mistakes, he didn't defend @DT12 and, in fact, didn't even mention him. It's good to be diligent and this notion is quite important in understanding the current scale of the conflict and the potential of its development.so you found no problem at all with dt12's post and this was what needed to be addressed.
yeah but it was Clinton who was responsible for the conspiracy theories in 2016 insofar as stolen elections go. that's now being verified by court proceedings. i've never really seen any real solid examples of russian misinformation campaigns. they're always cited and never proven. also, i'd like to see statistics on the influence the russians exerted on brexit. i doubt there are any because it's mostly an ideological argument without any knowable or reliable proof. did the russians blackmail cameron into calling a referendum? or blackmail the british press into running right wing propaganda? i really don't think so.
if you want to see actual russian disinformation and misinformation you don't have to look further than this war which they're calling a special military operation. but it's lazy and dishonest when establishment types from whatever side of the spectrum blame their own failings on some all powerful russian state. clinton was a shit candidate and couldn't accept that so she spent years concocting nonsense stories to cover it. the server at trump tower for example was literally fabricated by the clinton campaign team and that has now been verified. the steele dossier was commissioned by the clinton campaign. that's also verified. fact is trump won because of generational upheaval and massive voter dissatisfaction in the US. brexit was similar. people who voted for each literally said it had to do with sticking a middle finger up to the establishment. that has feck all to do with russia, even if the russians were delighted by it, and everything to do with our own government's successive failures in addressing real issues in society, primarily deindustrialization, generational divides, and cosmopolitan/rural divides.
So Lavrov compared giving Ukraine an EU candidate status to the pre WW2 time and Hitler in the sense of creating a coalition which wants to hurt Russia just like Hitler attacked USSR.
two different kinds. the one you never see proof of is the primary conspiracy like brexit or trump which i don't think there is proof of. this is a russian war so obviously calling it a special military operation is disinformation or misinformation in the same way that calling the "liberation" of iraq an action to spread "democracy" was disinformation. ironically the only proof we've seen of conspiracy in the american elections comes from clinton's campaign team, one of them being grilled over misleading the fbi about made up theories.The two bolded bits of text contradict each other.
could be. social media in general has been a bad thing imo.I still think Facebook changing their algorithm was the biggest difference between Brexit referendum+2017 election and then 2019 election. Yes the Labour 2019 election campaign was also dreadful but the fever on social media was generally starting to abate.
yeah i understand that. my opinion is that russia would have been happy at the prospect of brexit but that they likely did little or had little effect in the overall outcome. the broader societal trends are where peope should be looking. christ knows the majority of the british press is rabidly right wing and that doesn't have a whole lot to do with russia.Thanks for the response. I think that if you are looking for that standard of proof then (speaking about the UK) you are very unlikely to get it. Intelligence services won''t be able to disclose the level of proof required by a criminal court - indeed they have often vetoed the prosecution of suspected terrorists for that reason. There is a price to be paid disclosing evidence which may show you have assets in a hostile state, or even worse (in terms of consequences) that you have compromised that hostile state's communications. The ISC Report was heavily redacted for those reasons.
i agree on russian money. that's where people should look. the news/troll farms would just be competing with domestic right wing nutjobs so i'll always argue that their importance has been massively overstated by domestic political entities looking to project their own insufficiencies away from themselves. the money is real though as the tory party will know.But no, that's not really what I was getting at, I'm more thinking about the vast donations of Russian origin to the Conservative party in this instance. I believe there's been a lot of funny Russian money in German politics amongst others in Europe, and it would astound me if the same money wasn't swilling around American politics as well given how corrupt their lobbying system is.
ironically the only proof we've seen of conspiracy in the american elections comes from clinton's campaign team, one of them being grilled over misleading the fbi about made up theories.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/17/politics/michael-sussman-john-durham-trial/index.htmlCould you explain that a bit more in detail? Conspiracy theories have been influencing the American elections since over a decade heavily. Even if you ignore the whole stolen election story because it primarily happened afterwards or pizza gate because it can't be traced back to the candidate teams, what about Trump dismissing absentee voting because it will be rigged etc.? If anything, conspiracy theories have been institutionalized in recent elections.
Yes, I think I do. I know, for example, that this war did not begin on February 24th 2022. I know that if you go to Victoria "F*ck the EU" Nuland's Wikipedia page (I don't know how to post images here), you will see that the 2nd picture on the right was taken on February 1st 2014...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland
It shows her (the architect of Euromaidan) and John Kerry sitting opposite Petro Poroshenko, Arseniy Yatesenyuk and Vitaliy Klitschko (notice how the 3 Ukrainians have their heads dutifully bowed, not even any pens and paper in front of them, while their American handlers are giving them their orders). And then, almost 4 months later, by an absolutely startling coincidence, 'the Ukrainian people' "democratically elected" Petro Poroshenko to be their president, Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be their Prime Minister, and Vitali Klitschko to be the mayor of Kiev (amazing how often America perfectly predicts who is going to win 'free and fair elections' months in advance isn't it?).
I know that Poroshenko's successor (the West's new Winston Churchill) is a project of Ihor Kolomoiskiy (the founder and main sponsor of Azov Battalion). Someone asked me earlier in the thread why I always put the name 'Zelenskiy' in quotes when referring to policy. It's because he is nobody in this situation. He makes no decisions and has no input on anything that matters. His only 2 orders from his handlers in Washington and London are: 1) never, under any circumstances, and no matter how much pressure you find yourself under, remove your little green military T-shirt. And 2) never, we repeat NEVER, shave off your little beard. You are a warrior. You are a fighter. You are our new Action Man figure.
Oh yeah, and I know that the new paragon of Western values is as corrupt as they come:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...dent-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy
So yeah, I know that this is not a fight between autocracy and democracy, it is an incredibly complex situation that gets reduced to "good v evil and that's all there is to it!" for a dumb mass audience whose reading ability extends no further than a tweet thread.
Further, I know that most of the people in this thread who are salivating at the thought of all these new lovely weapons coming to Ukraine are doing so not because they care about Ukraine but because this war is a video game to them. It's entertainment (on more than one occasion I've wanted to post the link to donate to Ukraine to see who puts their money where their mouth is). Their support of America's and the UK's strategy of "let the Ukrainians die as slowly as possible so as to weaken Russia as much as possible" is not out of concern for Ukrainians, it's out of concern for having more and more war to watch.
I know that the EU did not prepare for the possibility of this war dragging on the way that it has, and this is going to cost them a catastrophic amount. The EU was extremely bold and aggressive in their sanctions against Russia, believing (they directly stated this) that it would cripple the Russian economy and therefore the Russian war machine within 3 months. A minor timing issue with disastrous consequences. Now they are in a position where they cannot admit the sanctions are not working and so are just going to keep on driving over the cliff, with unelected morons (von der Leyen, Borrell, Michel et al) doing the driving. They'll be fine, they'll parachute out of it all in a couple of years and retire to their Swiss lakes, hell they may even hook up with Kolomoiyskiy and Zelenskiy while they're there. Russia never said this war would be over in days, weeks or months. They gave no timeline. It was THE WEST that gave timelines, based on famously and repeatedly bad analysis (remember when the same people predicted the Afghan army would hold off the Taliban for more than 6 days?). It is not Russia who miscalculated the timeline of this war, it is the West, which is why they are now crippling themselves economically. Their massive sanctions were based on the premise that it would be over by now. They did not foresee Ukraine needing 10 billion dollars a month (and rising) only to stay afloat.
Finally, I know that for every post you can find from Ukrainians who are not actually fighting the war saying that they have all the people and 'will' needed to fight if only they get WEAPONS WEAPONS WEAPONS!, you can find a hundred more from Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 who are desperate for 'Zelenskiy' to lift the ban on their fleeing the country (if Ukrainians are so ready and willing to die for the West's freedom, why have all Ukrainian men been forbidden from leaving the country since February 25th?). Last week 'Zelenskiy' told Poland to send back any men aged 18 to 60 who fled as refugees by June 27th. His plan is to put guns in their hands and send them to "die for the world's freedom".
Those are the things I know. What I believe (but naturally don't know) is that Ukraine can't win this war. Everyone (Johnson mainly) who says they can refuses to define 'win' in this context. Pushing Russia out of Donbas and/or Crimea? It will never happen, and they know it. "Destroying the Russian army" as Kasparov said in that tweet posted yesterday? Idiotic. Ukraine's fully mobilised army is being decimated by Russia's peacetime army. I also believe that Putin has no intention of invading any other country. He explicitly stated his aims in his speech before the invasion. "If we cede territory to Putin now, he will come for Poland next!" is absolutely divorced from any kind of understanding of WHY Putin invaded Ukraine in the first place ("Because he hates democracy!" - idiotic understanding of this war).
Zelenskiy''s handlers in DC and London need to send him to the negotiating table now. Otherwise, all that will happen from here on is more dead Ukrainians, more dead 'orcs', more of an economically crippled EU, more Boris Johnson pretending to care about Ukrainians (he doesn't, he needs a geopolitical friend because he has none), and more of the West stupidly pushing one stated rival (Russia) further and further into the arms of their other stated rival (China).
I've said my piece. Back to the tweets of what weapons are being sent alongside salivating emojis. But before I go, here is the link to donate to Ukrainians:
https://donate.unhcr.org/int/en/ukraine-emergency
Frankly I don't know how anyone can spend a week sunning themselves on a Greek island when Ukrainians are dying for your freedom. That money could have helped so many Ukrainians.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/17/politics/michael-sussman-john-durham-trial/index.html
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/18/politics/steele-dossier-reckoning/index.html
the entire trump-russia thing was literally clinton campaign propaganda. there are better breakdowns of it but the main point is that clinton's campaign fabricated a story about a server in trump tower and paid steele to write a sensationalist report. both have been absolutely discredited since. point being then that it was clinton who set the agenda for stolen election conspiracy theories. trump obviously and happily followed her in 2020. and it's not even recent really. there have been conspiracies about stolen elections since 2000 except that one very probably was stolen. after that the conspiracies were less about votes and more about side issues like obama's birth certificate, which trump jumped on too. then clinton's russia propaganda. then trump's general "rigged" conspiracy. the us now spends the four years it has after election discussing the ins and outs of the previous result. it's still happening.
or think about trump's quid pro quo. he was accused of witholding aid to zelensky iirc in return for dirt on biden. the funny thing is that trump probably did do exactly that but also that there was or is enormous corruption implied in the biden-ukraine relationship. don't want to discuss this here because it's probably more in line with the civil war thread but the takeaway for me is that the american political system is corrupt beyond all imagination. each side swims in outright lies and propaganda and revels in twisting the law to crush the other side. it's almost accepted at this point. where this gets complicated is when federal agencies are forced to get involved. they're supposed to be apolitical so any involvement for or against either side is a massive taboo. the fbi obviously feels aggrieved with the clinton campaign, or did, because they've let it be known publicly that the campaign misled them consistently and withheld their own hand in supposedly solid "tips". might not have been a problem if clinton actually won the election but became a fairly big problem when trump won because the fbi now had to deal with a president which they and he both knew had been targetted by the fbi on the premise of false information. just an enormously corrupt electoral system imo and i often wonder if comey didn't intervene in the end to try and balance the scales as there was nothing in the clinton investigation he announced either which means it was most likely designed for public opinion effect. the specifics will have to be left to guesswork for reasons frosty pointed out but the general picture is easy enough to put together years after the fact, with the comey thing being a mix of resentment toward the clinton campaign for infringing on the independence of the fbi.
as for pizza gate. i think that was qanon. my guess there would be that a trump campaign official is responsible for all of that stuff as it makes a lot of sense. it's the same demographic, trump voters basically.
Can we talk about how this is the image @DT12 is talking about where the Ukrainians apparently have their "heads bowed"...
...everyone at the table has their fecking heads bowed in that case!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland#/media/File:Secretary_Kerry_Meets_With_Ukrainian_Opposition_Leaders_in_Munich_(12253362394).jpg
Even Victoria!