Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[neverdie]

The post that triggered @Zehner’s comment was from @shamans who is very comfortable financially and does not represent people in food banks. He’s more likely to think about banks losing money than food banks losing resources. And when he said that his view is not in the minority, he was representing the view of people like himself who care more about America’s GDP and economic growth than the number of people under the poverty line in America and their current trajectory. They’re looking at the stock market and feeling the pain, and they think maybe Ukraine should do something to stop that pain. Just make a few concessions, give up a bit of land, help stabilise the oil prices that ultimately matter more to the world than your little claim of sovereignty. That is a morally objectionable position. So if anything, it’s you conflating @Zehner’s comment that was grounded in a specific context with some wider social commentary that has ended up in virtue signalling.

not familiar enough with the poster's finances to tell if that's right or not. as for my comment, I stand by it generally. don't want to get into this thread tbh but while it is true that being born in America or the UK means you are better off statisticallly than most people born elsewhere, it's also true that America has tent cities and extreme poverty. the UK also has rising poverty. i think the general line that people from these countries, normal people barely getting by that is, not the very well off, need to be able to swallow an endless amount of debt and hardship is misguided. better not to conflate the two issues imo. which is the tone i got from the original exchange but is possible I completely misread it.

 

[Denis79]

The absolute horror that is taking place in Ukraine (and for so long) has moved me for the first time closer to "get involved on the ground" line of thinking.

Couldn't care less about gas prices or who is affected by it.

I get your point but food production is hit by the high prices, farmers are hit hard while Russia are holding cereals hostage. It's a fecking terrible what's going on and even worse what is yet to come. That said it's not for Ukraine to sacrifice anything so the gas prices go down, there are ways for stronger governments to take that hit but something has to be done so the absolute poorest are fed.

 

[maniak]

Couldn't care less about gas prices or who is affected by it.

Bold statement when millions will starve to death.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

I get your point but food production is hit by the high prices, farmers are hit hard while Russia are holding cereals hostage. It's a fecking terrible what's going on and even worse what is yet to come. That said it's not for Ukraine to sacrifice anything so the gas prices go down, there are ways for stronger governments to take that hit but something has to be done so the absolute poorest are fed.

The looming grain shortage could make the $/bbl of oil look like small potatoes, methinks. I haven’t looked into much yet though as far as how wheat supply is projected to look like globally.

 

[Denis79]

The looming grain shortage could make the $/bbl of oil look like small potatoes, methinks. I haven’t looked into much yet though as far as how wheat supply is projected to look like globally.

Yeah you're right. I know here at home farmers are not motivated to sow grain because of the high gas prices and there are no incentives from the government either. There are acres and acres of land that can produce a lot but it's simply not profitable to do so with the high gas prices and no governmental help.

 

[Water Melon]

When millions start to die because of high oil prices and lack of cereals, it will be because of put-ler's actions. Not because of Ukranians protecting and fighting to death to protect their families and homeland. Not a fecking inch of Ukranian soil should be ceded. Put more pressure on the agressor, provide more arms to Ukraine to defeat the aggressor asap. The world defeated fascism, the world will have to defeat rushism as well.

 

[Brwned]

not familiar enough with the poster's finances to tell if that's right or not. as for my comment, I stand by it generally. don't want to get into this thread tbh but while it is true that being born in America or the UK means you are better off statisticallly than most people born elsewhere, it's also true that America has tent cities and extreme poverty. the UK also has rising poverty. i think the general line that people from these countries, normal people barely getting by that is, not the very well off, need to be able to swallow an endless amount of debt and hardship is misguided. better not to conflate the two issues imo. which is the tone i got from the original exchange but is possible I completely misread it.

I doubt anyone is explicitly requesting people at the poverty line accept going below the poverty line for an indefinite period as an act of sacrifice for the Ukrainians. Mostly I’d think people are just thinking about the average person in the US or UK, who can afford to take a hit to their finances without real harm, along with the large group of above average people who do have excessive wealth compared to the average person in Ukraine, never mind the average person outside of Europe. They’re not intentionally ignoring the substantial number of people in food banks, but it’s not the first thing they think of. Because once you start thinking about them the trade-offs become much more concerning, the solutions become much more complicated, and those opportunities to cleanly win the moral argument with all of the deep satisfaction that comes with it start to diminish. And that’s what internet arguments are all about in the end.

So in that sense I agree that it’s important to separate out the issues, consider them on their own merits, and discuss the complexities of how they overlap. I’m just saying in this case, the guy that triggered the discussion wasn’t arguing from your position at all. And someone arguing from a position of selfish priorities in a comfortable living situation will inevitably trigger moral outrage when that’s weighed up against the situation the Ukrainians are facing.

 

[VorZakone]

By the way, the UK MoD are saying there's also desertions happening on the Ukrainian side.

 

[maniak]

When millions start to die because of high oil prices and lack of cereals, it will be because of put-ler's actions. Not because of Ukranians protecting and fighting to death to protect their families and homeland. Not a fecking inch of Ukranian soil should be ceded. Put more pressure on the agressor, provide more arms to Ukraine to defeat the aggressor asap. The world defeated fascism, the world will have to defeat rushism as well.

I get your feeling regarding russia and I get even more ukranians' will to fight to the end, but eventually those arming ukraine will have to decide how many millions of lives is the donbass worth.

It's a fecked up situation because conceding to some of putin's demands is a horrible precedent, but those millions dying won't be westerners, will be people with absolutely no voice.

I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions because I really don't know what I would do.

 

[Zehner]

Don't run away from your comments now. You go about acting as if rising gas prices is just an inconvenience on the drive to your golf course. Many Americans are struggling for basic necessities right now and are paying the price for not only Russia's aggression but Europe's incompetence in over reliance on Russia and Zelenskys lack of preparation despite being warned

What you also dont get is I'm an immigrant and have family "back home" that is impacted by the gas prices in ways you couldn't even fathom. While you play geopolitics and cream yourself at probably the first conflict you've ever followed the situation around the world is terrible. Third world countries where people die everyday dont give a crap about Russia Ukraine and who gains what land. Cold hard facts. That should not matter anyways, just from an American perspective is enough.

I have no sympathy for Russia they're playing the same game Israel has been playing but even with Israel in Palestine has had to yield and so has neighboring countries.

As for "get out of jail" cars I see why it got you so agressive. You're afraid of being faced with similar global conflicts that you probably don't give a crap about. You don't want to face the hypocrisy.

Probably texting this franticly on your iPhone or Android phone ethically crafted in China while they decimate the Uyghurs and take their land. Wonder why you can't give up that privileged right.

[/QUOTE]

Mate, come off your high horse. It's cute that you think you're the only one who knows about all the bad stuff that happens around the world but you really aren't. If that's your feeling, maybe you need to surround yourself with other people. It's nothing special to be informed, it should actually be the norm. And just for the record, my grandparents came to Germany as refugees as well and fled from interment camps in Serbia - a genocide (>60.000 dead) that to this date is barely even admitted by the local governments. But it doesn't matter. When injustice goes unpunished it sucks but that doesn't mean that it is okay to look away when another one happens. And you are not bringing these things up because you want to direct attention at them, you do so because you backed yourself into a corner and now try to distract (pretending to care) from a simple fact:

Ukraine doesn't want to surrender. The people actually doing the fighting don't want to surrender. You criticized me as a keyboard warrior, but you are actually the one trying to tell the people on the front what they should do. So put your money where your mouth is and shut up.

 

[Jim Beam]

Bold statement when millions will starve to death.

Yeah, I clearly went too far with it, but just seen scenes and pictures from Mariupul and Severodoneck having serious flashbacks of war which I went through as a kid. The comment was related to regular/average folks in the west who will be hardly affected by it, but still wasn't justifiable and could have put it better.

 

[Water Melon]

I get your feeling regarding russia and I get even more ukranians' will to fight to the end, but eventually those arming ukraine will have to decide how many millions of lives is the donbass worth.

It's a fecked up situation because conceding to some of putin's demands is a horrible precedent, but those millions dying won't be westerners, will be people with absolutely no voice.

I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions because I really don't know what I would do.

Donbass is worth everything. Just like defeating fascism was worth everything. There is no way put-ler can go unpunished after what he has done. He is ready to see millions of Ukranians die just as he does not give a f...ck about millions of others who will die because of hunger caused by his actions. Hitler and put-ler are pretty similar to me, just like fascism and russism. Ukraine are a sovereign nation and a sovereign country. They have their own language, culture and are just protecting their homeland. On contrary, put-ler is that very cnut who believes that Russia is still an empire and should dominate over other nations. F..ck him. We all have our motherlands, culture, native languages etc. We all have our families to protect. Stop the aggressor, help the defender. Make sure that the aggressor has no more means to start anything like this in the future.

 

[maniak]

Yeah, I clearly went too far with it, but just seen scenes and pictures from Mariupul and Severodoneck having serious flashbacks of war which I went through as a kid. The comment was related to regular/average folks in the west who will be hardly affected by it, but still wasn't justifiable and could have put it better.

I get it, the gut reaction is there for me too. But then we see pictures from children starving in africa and things aren't as black and white anymore.

Donbass is worth everything. Just like defeating fascism was worth everything. There is no way put-ler can go unpunished after what he has done. He is ready to see millions of Ukranians die just as he does not give a f...ck about millions of others who will die because of hunger caused by his actions. Hitler and put-ler are pretty similar to me, just like fascism and russism. Ukraine are a sovereign nation and a sovereign country. They have their own language, culture and are just protecting their homeland. On contrary, put-ler is that very cnut who believes that Russia is still an empire and should dominate over other nations. F..ck him. We all have our motherlands, culture, native languages etc. We all have our families to protect. Stop the aggressor, help the defender. Make sure that the aggressor has no more means to start anything like this in the future.

When you say everything, you mean a global food crises that will add 47 million people to acute hunger situation (according to WFP), with god knows how many million dead, is an acceptable price to pay? Especially when we (the west) are deciding these things for those who will die.

I've read your posts in this thread and I can't imagine being in your shoes, with people I know and love dying. I'd probably feel the same way. But I feel we're getting to a point where the old "we can't negotiate with terrorists" might mean too high a price.

 

[neverdie]

I doubt anyone is explicitly requesting people at the poverty line accept going below the poverty line for an indefinite period as an act of sacrifice for the Ukrainians. Mostly I’d think people are just thinking about the average person in the US or UK, who can afford to take a hit to their finances without real harm, along with the large group of above average people who do have excessive wealth compared to the average person in Ukraine, never mind the average person outside of Europe. They’re not intentionally ignoring the substantial number of people in food banks, but it’s not the first thing they think of. Because once you start thinking about them the trade-offs become much more concerning, the solutions become much more complicated, and those opportunities to cleanly win the moral argument with all of the deep satisfaction that comes with it start to diminish. And that’s what internet arguments are all about in the end.

So in that sense I agree that it’s important to separate out the issues, consider them on their own merits, and discuss the complexities of how they overlap. I’m just saying in this case, the guy that triggered the discussion wasn’t arguing from your position at all. And someone arguing from a position of selfish priorities in a comfortable living situation will inevitably trigger moral outrage when that’s weighed up against the situation the Ukrainians are facing.

yeah if your only point is how much the price of oil or gas affects you personally, then I agree that it's a non-point and should be called out. the broader issue for me is the idea of a catch-all wealth tax which effectively hits those without any actual wealth to begin with. or even the idea of a wealth tax which is suitable for wars and arms manufacturing but not for domestic social policies. during the last election, as an example, the idea of a wealth tax was roundly savaged with all the news outlets scrambling to feature a representative of the market who would warn about capital flight and magic money trees. now, though, there's a sense of "we must suffer so they can win". that's well and good but where's that spirit when it comes time to end poverty and homelessness? and in that context the two issues clash.

there is or will be massive resentment from enormous parts of the population who are told to suffer more at a time of record inequality when the richest people in these countries and their representatives were at pains to stress how counter productive it would be for them to suffer a wealth tax for the sake of everyone else. that resentment isn't toward Ukraine btw but toward representatives of the richest who lecture the poorest about what it is to be selfless. at which point it doesn't matter how noble your cause is because governments have demonstrated that they don't care about the poorest in their own countries enough to make any substantial sacrifice at all. that is, the people who advocate social spending cuts, like universal credit not so long ago, are the same ones who will say we should do more or there's no limit to what we can do, and that is a massive problem. it takes on the same character of people in highly comfortable living situations telling the rest, a large section of which barely copes with the cost of living, that they shouldn't be "selfish" and that's where I draw a line.

But if your only point is that Ukraine should capitulate because the price of oil is inconvenient, not because of a much broader underlying context of establishment and governmental hypocrisy and greed, then I agree that that's something else completely and laregly irrelevant. likely I misread Zehner's original post either way and don't want to go more off topic here than already done. my point, largely, has nothing to do with Ukraine itself. i don't think they should capitulate and do think there is an obvious argument for arming them within reasonable limits, to the extent that we avoid direct confrontation between Russia and NATO, and also an obvious humanitarian argument in terms of refugee accomodation and the rest. my point is more about the domestic social context and the arguments you hear, from some people at least, about being selfish because you're worried that your own living situation and that of millions of other people is seriously in doubt. and that's no small thing especially when the government and establishment have demonstrated no will to care about the very people I'm speaking of in any context at all.

 

[Water Melon]

I get it, the gut reaction is there for me too. But then we see pictures from children starving in africa and things aren't as black and white anymore.



When you say everything, you mean a global food crises that will add 47 million people to acute hunger situation (according to WFP), with god knows how many million dead, is an acceptable price to pay? Especially when we (the west) are deciding these things for those who will die.

I've read your posts in this thread and I can't imagine being in your shoes, with people I know and love dying. I'd probably feel the same way. But I feel we're getting to a point where the old "we can't negotiate with terrorists" might mean too high a price.

Yes, you do not negotiate with terrorists at the expense of the country being terrorized. It is that simple. Stop the aggressor, the cause of all these problems. Put-ler is blocking the ports, creating concentration camps, encouraging his army to be as barbaric as possible. Ukranians are willing to fight for their land and no leader in the world has any right to tell them stop it. In fact, everyone is supporting them to carry on their fight against the ultimate evil. Put pressure on put-ler not Zelenskyy.

 

[Gehrman]

Are there any surveys about ukraines sentiments on ceding Donbass?

 

[maniak]

Yes, you do not negotiate with terrorists at the expense of the country being terrorized. It is that simple.

Fair enough, I hope the decision makers don't look at things in such a black and white way.

 

[Gehrman]

Fair enough, I hope the decision makers don't look at things in such a black and white way.

In the end its the government of Ukraine who makes that decision and its all on Putin in the end.

 

[maniak]

In the end its the government of Ukraine who makes that decision and its all on Putin in the end.

Sure, but the ukranian government makes decisions based on the military/financial support they get, so indirectly it's not really 100% on them to decide.

 

[Water Melon]

Fair enough, I hope the decision makers don't look at things in such a black and white way.

The decision makers are the people of Ukraine and they are ready to continue their fight. The leaders of countries who are helping Ukraine also support the will of Ukranian citizens and their government. Put pressure on put-ler, eradicate russism. Ukranians are the ones suffering the worst.

 

[Water Melon]

Sure, but the ukranian government makes decisions based on the military/financial support they get, so indirectly it's not really 100% on them to decide.

But supporting countries are ready to continue their support, as this is the right thing to do. If you do not stop russism, it will continue. We have seen it over the years. The chief russist does not give a feck about anyone. The world let this cnut carry on for far too long. Had there been strong reaction after Georgia, there would be no disaster of Crimea and Donbass. Had there been fierce reaction in 2014, we would not have this war in 2022. The world is on Ukraine's side, thankfully. Tell put-ler to stop, it is his fault, do not tell Ukranians to cede their motherland.

 

[maniak]

The decision makers are the people of Ukraine and they are ready to continue their fight. The leaders of countries who are helping Ukraine also support the will of Ukranian citizens and their government. Put pressure on put-ler, eradicate russism. Ukranians are the ones suffering the worst.

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when people start dying by the millions as a direct consequence of this (putin's terrorist tactics regarding food no doubt), those western leaders will have to see if the donbass is worth all that suffering. As financial crisis gets worse, I suspect most western populations will abandon the unconditional support stance they felt when the war started. It's already happening, in fact.

 

[maniak]

But supporting countries are ready to continue their support, as this is the right thing to do. If you do not stop russism, it will continue. We have seen it over the years. The chief russist does not give a feck about anyone. The world let this cnut carry on for far too long. Had there been strong reaction after Georgia, there would be no disaster of Crimea and Donbass. Had there been fuerce reaction in 2014, we would not have this war in 2022. The world is on Ukraine's side, thankfully.

As I said before, it's fecked situation to be in if you're making decisions. We all know that continuing to support ukraine unconditionally will cause millions to die. At what point stops being worth it. I know I won't starve to death, so it's easy for me to say "let's keep going".

 

[Water Melon]

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when people start dying by the millions as a direct consequence of this (putin's terrorist tactics regarding food no doubt), those western leaders will have to see if the donbass is worth all that suffering. As financial crisis gets worse, I suspect most western populations will abandon the unconditional support stance they felt when the war started. It's already happening, in fact.

We will see, but I expect to see some changes once lend-lease comes into full play. In case things continue to get worse, I fully expect more sanctions on Russia.

 

[Water Melon]

As I said before, it's fecked situation to be in if you're making decisions. We all know that continuing to support ukraine unconditionally will cause millions to die. At what point stops being worth it. I know I won't starve to death, so it's easy for me to say "let's keep going".

My country's economy is extremely dependent on Russia, and I am absolutely ready to feel the hit. I have been feeling it already. Defeating the russism, is key to worlds stability. Letting it go on, results even in bigger disasters.

 

[Gehrman]

Sure, but the ukranian government makes decisions based on the military/financial support they get, so indirectly it's not really 100% on them to decide.

True but you would have to have the EU, the UK and the US to adopt the same stance and Ukraine might not be able to be forced to cede even if they do lose the support of the west

 

[maniak]

My country's economy is extremely dependent on Russia, and I am absolutely ready to feel the hit. I have been feeling it already. Defeating the russism, is key to worlds stability. Letting it go on, results even in bigger disasters.

Feeling the hit is one thing, having entire communities starve to death is quite another.

 

[maniak]

True but you would have to have the EU, the UK and the US to adopt the same stance and Ukraine might not be able to be forced to cede even if they do lose the support of the west

Very unrealistic they wouldn't make concessions if they were losing support.

 

[Gehrman]

Very unrealistic they wouldn't make concessions if they were losing support.

I think after losing Crimea and being in a full scale invasion I don't think Ukraine will surrender anything.

 

[maniak]

I think after losing Crimea and being in a full scale invasion I don't think Ukraine will surrender anything.

I hope they don't have to and we can't control their ultimate decision, that's true, but realistically, if we stop helping they'll have no choice.

 

[harms]

I get your feeling regarding russia and I get even more ukranians' will to fight to the end, but eventually those arming ukraine will have to decide how many millions of lives is the donbass worth.

It's a fecked up situation because conceding to some of putin's demands is a horrible precedent, but those millions dying won't be westerners, will be people with absolutely no voice.

I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions because I really don't know what I would do.

You do understand that if you concede to Putin's oil, gas & grain blackmail, he won't stop and will use it more and more. Is Donbass worth it? Is Kharkiv? Kyiv? Lviv? Tbilisi, Warsaw?

 

[maniak]

You do understand that if you concede to Putin's oil, gas & grain blackmail, he won't stop and will use it more and more. Is Donbass worth it? Is Kharkiv? Kyiv? Lviv? Tbilisi, Warsaw?

I understand he will be emboldened, sure, and I keep repeating this in case someone misunderstands, it's a fecked up decision to make. But on the other hand, are we willing to let potentially tens of millions to die? If the answer is yes, then so be it, I'm just saying personally I'm not sure it is.

 

[Gehrman]

You do understand that if you concede to Putin's oil, gas & grain blackmail, he won't stop and will use it more and more. Is Donbass worth it? Is Kharkiv? Kyiv? Lviv? Tbilisi, Warsaw?

Harms, on another note are the sanctions being felt in daily life? Our national broadcaster showed very empty shopping malls and increased food prices bit I don't know if they were cherry picking.

 

[Cheimoon]

I think a lot of the criticism comes from the idea of a world police, and the drivers behind it. The US didn't reluctantly assume that mantle, it was done by design to serve its interests economically and ideologically, to ensure that it remains the principal global superpower. When its conduct in this capacity has been criticised (this is extended to the UK and co too of course) historically there has been thorough and objective reasons for the criticism. That doesn't mean situations can't be evaluated on a case by case basis, past failed interventions (with questionable casus belli) doesn't mean that hypothetically there won't be a situation where one would think there is cause to intervene.

Also, does anyone outside the NATO/EU sphere and its direct allies (Australia, New Zealand) look at the US or NATO to solve major conflicts? Obviously those countries do, cause they have positioned themselves / have been positioned in the US's sphere of influence, and often depend on the US for military purposes. But anyone else? Is this 'US World Police' a very NATO/EU perspective? (Well, also South Korea and Taiwan I suppose, at least in their own regions, and maybe to a lesser extent Japan and some Latin American countries? South Africa? That still leaves a good part of South America and most of Africa and Asia out though.)

 

[Raoul]

My country's economy is extremely dependent on Russia, and I am absolutely ready to feel the hit. I have been feeling it already. Defeating the russism, is key to worlds stability. Letting it go on, results even in bigger disasters.

This is key, although I would add that Putin's regime has to fall and Russia go democratic for such a stability to be realized.

 

[harms]

Harms, on another note are the sanctions being felt in daily life? Our national broadcaster showed very empty shopping malls and increased food prices bit I don't know if they were cherry picking.

Moscow is different from the rest of the country, but the food prices & prices in general have been rising quite significantly. Obviously the prices on the more expensive/complicated stuff to make, most of which is being imported — cars, phones, computers, washing machines (now forever linked to this invasion) etc. have skyrocketed, a lot of those goods have already disappeared from the shelves (big stores only rely on what they have on storages now) while companies try to set up a "parallel import" routes (legitimised contraband) or find new partners in China/India etc.

Shopping malls are really struggling since a lot of foreign brands have either suspended their activity or permanently left — IKEA, H&M, Zara, Uniqlo, adidas, Nike, McDonalds etc. And obviously you can't replace them all at once even with drastically inferior products. Cinemas have lost around 70% of their regular audience since most of the big studios don't allow their movies to be distributed in Russia anymore. The unemployment rates have, again, skyrocketed — foreign corporations are leaving, any business that was reliant on import & export have taken a huge hit, entertainment and service industry is struggling since people aren't spending on it etc.

I'm still not sure what they're going to do about aviation. They've kept all the foreign planes that were leased out to Russian companies for internal flights (since they're going to be arrested the moment they land in a non-Russian airport), but there's already a critical shortage of spare parts and details that are absolutely integral for their functionality (and it's not that easy to import them through different channels since it's such a closed market). Russian planes aren't fully Russian either — even U.S. couldn't make a proper passenger plane without any foreign details if it was suddenly cut off from the outside world... and U.S. is light years ahead of Russia in terms of aviaconstruction.

It's a bit of a paradox that those who are opposed to the war felt the first wave of the sanctions the hardest, since you're being actively cut off from the outside world (not that I support the constant moaning from that group, there are way more important issues at the moment) — something that isn't immediately felt by people who live in smaller towns/villages (where the biggest employer is always the government — schools, police, prisons, oil/gas/mining industry etc.), older people (reliant on their pensions and are unlikely to travel a lot). The rise in food prices and the exodus of huge corporations like McDonalds, IKEA, car manufacturers who have employed hundreds of thousands of people, are now being felt by them as well though. And it's only going to get worse.

 

[Gehrman]

Moscow is different from the rest of the country, but the food prices & prices in general have been rising quite significantly. Obviously the prices on the more expensive/complicated stuff to make, most of which is being imported — cars, phones, computers, washing machines (now forever linked to this invasion) etc. have skyrocketed, a lot of those goods have already disappeared from the shelves (big stores only rely on what they have on storages now) while companies try to set up a "parallel import" routes (legitimised contraband) or find new partners in China/India etc.

Shopping malls are really struggling since a lot of foreign brands have either suspended their activity or permanently left — IKEA, H&M, Zara, Uniqlo, adidas, Nike, McDonalds etc. And obviously you can't replace them all at once even with drastically inferior products. Cinemas have lost around 70% of their regular audience since most of the big studios don't allow their movies to be distributed in Russia anymore. The unemployment rates have, again, skyrocketed — foreign corporations are leaving, any business that was reliant on import & export have taken a huge hit, entertainment and service industry is struggling since people aren't spending on it etc.

I'm still not sure what they're going to do about aviation. They've kept all the foreign planes that were leased out to Russian companies for internal flights (since they're going to be arrested the moment they land in a non-Russian airport), but there's already a critical shortage of spare parts and details that are absolutely integral for their functionality (and it's not that easy to import them through different channels since it's such a closed market). Russian planes aren't fully Russian either — even U.S. couldn't make a proper passenger plane without any foreign details if it was suddenly cut off from the outside world... and U.S. is light years ahead of Russia in terms of aviaconstruction.

It's a bit of a paradox that those who are opposed to the war felt the first wave of the sanctions the hardest, since you're being actively cut off from the outside world (not that I support the constant moaning from that group, there are way more important issues at the moment) — something that isn't immediately felt by people who live in smaller towns/villages (where the biggest employer is always the government — schools, police, prisons, oil/gas/mining industry etc.), older people (reliant on their pensions and are unlikely to travel a lot). The rise in food prices and the exodus of huge corporations like McDonalds, IKEA, car manufacturers who have employed hundreds of thousands of people, are now being felt by them as well though. And it's only going to get worse.

Thank you very much for that iluminating post.

 

[MoskvaRed]

A few thoughts on the question of prolonging the war and thereby increasing the suffering of those on low incomes (poverty in the West, maybe actual starvation elsewhere):

1. Only one party is responsible for these problems - Russia. It invaded Ukraine on the flimsiest of excuses (after previously invading 8 years ago), and Ukraine is fighting for its survival.

2. The food problems are not incidental - food supply has been deliberately weaponised by Russia.

3. The US, the UK and other Western nations are wealthy enough to alleviate the sufferings of their own populations by redistributive taxation. The fact they do not or perhaps cannot do so due to dysfunction in their respective political systems is not Ukraine’s responsibility.

4. The West (particularly Europe) has a very real strategic interest in not allowing a revanchist, ultra-nationalist state to keep seeking to re-draw the borders of the East of the continent. It is fully justified in supporting Ukraine even (unfortunately) at the expense of suffering outside of Europe.

5. China, which has no strategic interest in Europe’s Eastern border, has great leverage over Russia due to Russia’s self-driven isolation from the West. It has failed (at least publicly) to lift a finger to deter the aggressor, while appearing largely exempt from criticism (unlike the flak aimed at the West for driving developing countries into destitution).

6. Having invested enormous amounts in various developing countries’ infrastructure as part of its belt and road project, China does have an interest in maintaining a level of stability in those countries. If several of those countries fall into serious civil unrest as a result of bankruptcy and food shortages, it probably will at some point be forced to use its influence on Russia.

Conclusion - for so long as Ukraine is willing to fight, the West should support it as, besides being both morally and strategically the right thing to do, Russia cannot use food blackmail for an extended period without risking alienating the one country which has sufficient leverage to force it to backdown.

 

[maniak]

Conclusion - for so long as Ukraine is willing to fight, the West should support it as, besides being both morally and strategically the right thing to do, Russia cannot use food blackmail for an extended period without risking alienating the one country which has sufficient leverage to force it to backdown.

If there was any morality to any of this, then the west would be helping the victims of putin elsewhere.

 

[Raoul]

If there was any morality to any of this, then the west would be helping the victims of putin elsewhere.

It is already helping the victims of Putin in Ukraine