Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

shamans said:
So is this ending any time soon or not. Any hope? What's the sentiment?
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Doesn’t look like it is. Ukrainian army is stagnating at the moment and actually slowly loses territory due to an overwhelming advantage that Russia has in artillery.

No one really knows how vast are Russia’s reserves in terms of arms and equipment. Ukraine obviously has the prospect of getting some heavy artillery from NATO but not all of this comes soon and some of them require a rather lengthy training before Ukrainian soldiers can use it.

So yeah, at this point the likeliest scenario is a rather lengthy war until one side completely depletes it’s resources — be it personnel, money or arms & equipment.
 
@harms any news on total Moskva casualties? It feels like that story has completely died even though we still don't know the true casualty amount? Or maybe I missed some numbers?
 
VorZakone said:
@harms any news on total Moskva casualties? It feels like that story has completely died even though we still don't know the true casualty amount? Or maybe I missed some numbers?
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They’ve at least admitted that the casualties were participating in the special operation, which means that their families got proper compensation (because originally they weren’t, the ship simply collapsed without any reason). But no real news, only a lot of parents trying to get info on their “missing” kids (and one father got prosecuted for discrediting Russian army, I believe).

The original estimation (not official — officially they’ve admitted 1 or 2 deaths, something absurd) was around 40 dead but no one knows for sure even now.
 
TwoSheds said:
We're not pragmatic, we're not competent, were not principled. Our politicians are infantile, knee jerk and thick. And it plays well with a lot of the public - enough to work in our shit voting system.
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Glaston's attributing any of India's democratic principles to the British Empire's brutal colonisation, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. It was one of the low points of this thread until another guy started praising Saudi Arabia's war crimes in Yemen.
 
Blue and gold, wish rushists die or fold. In the last 4 days, I have lost 3 more of my friends. I hate putin and I hope he and his cronies feel all the pain that they have caused before they die. Russian Federation could and should have been one of the most wealthy and progressive countries in the world, instead they are now like a cancer to global stability, safety and economy . Feck "put ler", may he rot in pieces asap.
 
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I’ll say some strong words around this Germany gov., absolute amateurs and clowns undermining the whole of central/northern Europe.

Failed to make a strong stance:



The next day Putin makes a mockery of these weak hands by putting even more pressure:



Also backtracking after the initial meeting with Lithuanian president on the stationing of Nato troops in Lithuania:



This will have long-term consequences for Germany.
 
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This is the sort of fascist regime these clowns still have a hope to make a peace deal with, it still hasn’t clocked with EU leaders that they’re up against an evil in its purest form. Deluded and weak. Instead of thinking off-rumps for Putin, they should focus on delivering heavy weapons in proper quantities to Ukraine as swiftly as possible to stop the needless losses of Ukrainian lives.
 
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Rajma said:
I’ll say some strong words around this Germany gov., absolute amateurs and clowns undermining the whole of central/northern Europe.

Failed to make a strong stance:



The next day Putin makes a mockery of these weak hands by putting even more pressure:



Also backtracking after the initial meeting with Lithuanian president on the stationing of Nato troops in Lithuania:



This will have long-term consequences for Germany.
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Is Germany sort of playing the role that the USSR did vis-a-vis Germany, before the invasion in summer of 1941? Preferring to believe that there is room for cooperation with someone who ultimately wants to come and steal your lunch?
 
Rumours going around from "intelligence sources" a couple days ago of Putin being in a coma after a bad op are not at all worth repeating.

However when Kadyrov feels the need to come out and deny them for some reason... Can't help but raise an eyebrow.
 
MTF said:
Is Germany sort of playing the role that the USSR did vis-a-vis Germany, before the invasion in summer of 1941? Preferring to believe that there is room for cooperation with someone who ultimately wants to come and steal your lunch?
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In essence, it's an interplay of various different factors that at times are connected to each other. For instance, the Nazi past of Germany has made the country very skeptical of military in general and peace is the most important objective for most people. So dialogue is always the first choice which explains to an extent the strategy Merkel was pursuing. But obviously, this is also a welcome excuse for businesses or even politicians to make unehtical business with a country that attacked a sovereign state in 2014 - you can simply justify it by claiming "well, it is important to trade with them".

And then the east of Germany is obviously more Russia friendly in general and opportunistic politicians utilize that as well. Especially since that part of the country is poorer, the parties targeting the working class like the SPD, the Lefts and the AfD (far right) are as well in some cases.

So it is complicated. For instance, especially among the Boomer generation, there are many here who are genuinely worried that people are cheering about an increase of military fundings or that we are delivering weaponry to Ukraine which could escalate the war. Those aren't Putin friendly people, they are first and foremost afraid and were brought up to avoid any sort of military conflict.
 
Beans said:
In that hypothetical situation, perhaps.

I wonder if a second Trump administration would be able to pull out of NATO, if indeed they need congressional approval as I’ve read. Plenty of Republicans in the house and senate are backing Ukraine aid. Cuddling up to Russia has a different look now, and most of the country has experience seeing the Russians as the bad guys.
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Most Americans believe US should stop being the world's police since costs a lot of money to the tax payers. US has more than 200K men and women in Europe and Asia not counting countries in the middle east, so in other words the Europeans before Russia's invasion was like let the yanks spend the money to protect us which is wrong, Europe is more than capable to protect themselves and they showed they have better military equipment than Russia, they just need to get together and work together. France and UK invested in their military changing to high-tech (even they show to the public they spend less- not). Russia did what Trump couldn't - European countries spending more money in the military and probably waken a small giant called Germany and the rise of Poland's military.
 



This is more advanced than I expected. Will be interesting to see wether Denmark and Netherlands agree to this.
 
Pintu said:



This is more advanced than I expected. Will be interesting to see wether Denmark and Netherlands agree to this.
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It will be a hard sell in the Netherlands. The government isn't into it and I don't think there is currently a majority in parliament for it either. The line has been that the EU can promise whatever they want and call it whatever they want, but that Ukraine ultimately has to adhere to the same conditions as every other member for every step that goes beyond mere words.

Their compromise might be strong words about Ukraine absolutely being a future EU member, quietly accompanied by a document that sets out what's in reality a rather long roadmap to membership. (Since Ukraine apparently does really not meet many EU conditions for new member.) That wouldn't really change anything to Ukraine's current status and expectations though, and wouldn't send much of a signal to Russia, so that might not work for the others.

This might not be a pretty discussion.
 
cyberman said:
Surely NATO can march on Belarus then?
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I read that Ukraine is drafting up the plans to go on the counteroffensive if Belarus tries to get involved by taking Minsk temporarily. However, I feel that these extended military exercises by Belarus next to the Ukrainian boarder are only there to tie up the Ukrainian armed forces not allowing to allocate them to Donbass.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
Why are those countries against Ukraine joining NATO?
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The EU, not NATO.

I don't know about Denmark, but the sentiment in the Netherlands is that all countries need to follow the established process to join the EU, that Ukraine can't be treated differently, and that Ukraine is far off membership by the established criteria for joining. (Underneath that, of course, is the worry to allow poor and/or corrupt countries into the EU, which makes them net recipients of EU money and which is costly for other members.)

In short, they're not against Ukraine being on a path towards membership, they're against a shortcut for Ukraine.
 
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MuFc_1992 said:
Why are those countries against Ukraine joining NATO?
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I think you've misread it, they're not against Ukraine joining NATO, they're against Ukraine joining the EU (as are Portugal and Sweden to name 2 others, and of course the UK, but they are going to fight Ukraine's ascension to their nemesis the EU for very different reasons).

edit: what Cheimoon said.
 
DT12 said:
I think you've misread it, they're not against Ukraine joining NATO, they're against Ukraine joining the EU (as are Portugal and Sweden to name 2 others, and of course the UK, but they are going to fight Ukraine's ascension to their nemesis the EU for very different reasons).

edit: what Cheimoon said.
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Sorry I meant EU. Anyways, what is the general sentiment in those countries towards their govt. being against Ukraine joining EU? I thought Germany and France were the ones who were being weak on Ukraine but it seems like Netherlands, Denmark etc. are getting a free pass from the press. I know due process matters but Ukraine will have to be built from ground up after this so, not sure why they are being so pedantic about everything.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
Sorry I meant EU. Anyways, what is the general sentiment in those countries towards their govt. being against Ukraine joining EU? I thought Germany and France were the ones who were being weak on Ukraine but it seems like Netherlands, Denmark etc. are getting a free pass from the press. I know due process matters but Ukraine will have to be built from ground up after this so, not sure why they are being so pedantic about everything.
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LGBT rights, corruption is my guess.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
Sorry I meant EU. Anyways, what is the general sentiment in those countries towards their govt. being against Ukraine joining EU? I thought Germany and France were the ones who were being weak on Ukraine but it seems like Netherlands, Denmark etc. are getting a free pass from the press. I know due process matters but Ukraine will have to be built from ground up after this so, not sure why they are being so pedantic about everything.
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Ukraine, like Russia, is a corrupt oligarchy, and it doesn't come remotely close to reaching the EU's stated criteria for joining. 'Zelenskiy' is hoping he can emotionally blackmail the EU into footing the bill for rebuilding his country into an EU-worthy country ("We fought and died for your freedom Europe, now you all need to go poorer, hungrier and colder to repay us!"). Macron and Scholz are saying they fully support Ukraine's candidacy because they know there is not a chance in hell Ukraine will ever be joining the EU. As you said, Macron and Scholz have come under immense and mostly unwarranted criticism for not giving their full support to Ukraine. Going there today and pretending to want them in the EU (France, Germany and Italy don't want Ukraine anywhere near the EU, it's the one thing they have in common with the UK, though like I said it's for very different reasons) is a very easy way for them to shift future blame onto the likes of Sweden, Portugal, the Netherlands and Denmark.
 
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DT12 said:
Ukraine, liike Russia, is a corrupt oligarchy, and it doesn't come remotely close to reaching the EU's stated criteria for joining. Macron and Scholz are saying they fully support Ukraine's candidacy because they know there is not a chance in hell Ukraine will be joining the EU this side of 2035. As you said, Macron and Scholz have come under immense and mostly unwarranted criticism for not giving their full support to Ukraine. Going there today and pretending to want them in the EU (make no mistake, France, Germany and Italy don't want Ukraine anywhere near the EU, it's the one think they have in common with the UK) is a very easy way for them to shift future blame onto the likes of Sweden, Portugal, the Netherlands and Denmark.
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Well it is time for some desperate moves as Russia is slowly started to dominate and will carve off Ukrainian east. It sucks. The same way it sucked when NATO carved Serbia's south.
 
DT12 said:
Ukraine, like Russia, is a corrupt oligarchy, and it doesn't come remotely close to reaching the EU's stated criteria for joining. 'Zelenskiy' is hoping he can emotionally blackmail the EU into footing the bill for rebuilding his country into an EU-worthy country ("We fought and died for your freedom Europe, now you all need to go poorer, hungier and colder to repay us!"). Macron and Scholz are saying they fully support Ukraine's candidacy because they know there is not a chance in hell Ukraine will ever be joining the EU. As you said, Macron and Scholz have come under immense and mostly unwarranted criticism for not giving their full support to Ukraine. Going there today and pretending to want them in the EU (France, Germany and Italy don't want Ukraine anywhere near the EU, it's the one thing they have in common with the UK, though like I said it's for very different reasons) is a very easy way for them to shift future blame onto the likes of Sweden, Portugal, the Netherlands and Denmark.
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So how do you recon western world should've reacted to the Russian invasion? The whole idea of west collapses IMO if we stood by doing nothing considering the staggering number of Civilians(20K+ in Mariupol alone) that are being killed in this conflict. Do you really recon there was an option for the western leaders to do nothing? I personally believe they've acted like absolute cowards and are partly responsible for all the deaths.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
So how do you recon western world should've reacted to the Russian invasion? The whole idea of west collapses IMO if we stood by doing nothing considering the staggering number of Civilians(20K+ in Mariupol alone) that are being killed in this conflict. Do you really recon there was an option for the western leaders to do nothing? I personally believe they've acted like absolute cowards and are partly responsible for all the deaths.
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Bar direct war with Russia I can't see what Western countries can do more. Also well, mainly the US gets flack when it does intervene and then gets flack when it doesn't. You could say Germany is dragging its feet too much but that's about it.
 
Fair bit of good footage out this morning...

Another of yesterdays chopper hit in Donesk, like a scene from Top Gun. Demonstrates the effectiveness of flares, then what happens when you run out...

 
Gehrman said:
Bar direct war with Russia I can't see what Western countries can do more. Also well, mainly the US gets flack when it does intervene and then gets flack when it doesn't. You could say Germany is dragging its feet too much but that's about it.
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Russia blockading Ukraine's Black Sea ports affects the whole world, and is enough reason for the west/NATO to get stuck in there. For instance, Sweden is not even a member of NATO but if Russia tried to invade Gotland then NATO would intervene in minutes because of the strategic importance of that island.
 
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