Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Of course there must be a negotiated settlement. Even if Ukraine reaches its borders, Russia will not stop shelling them all day, everyday for the next 10 years or until they literally have no more shells.

At some point one has to talk to Russia, but Ukraine needs to be given a chance to seize as much of their land back as they can before negotiations are reached.
 
Aaaaaand there it is.

Don't be fooled, Europeans. Raoul (and the other American mods here) is laughing his ass off at you all. This whole "won't anyone think of the Ukrainian children!" shtick is vomit-inducing. They're playing you, as they always have.

Good grief - your true colours are starting to show now.

Russia had better start facing reality: Europe will eventually be buying zero gas, zero coal and zero oil from Russia. There are plenty of other sources of these, and in any case, Europe is moving gradually towards using less and less of these commodities.

Short-term disruption and difficulty for Europe? Sure, but afterwards what remains of Russia's influence in the world will shrink even further and you'll be left as junior partner to China and very much dependent on their goodwill and custom.
 
No it isn't. The US and EU combined account for about 30%. ...

Yes, you're right ... or 42%% in nominal terms. But the point stands that the EU's economy is huge and in no way depends, contrary to the claim by the poster I replied to, on being bankrolled by America.
 
Good grief - your true colours are starting to show now.

Russia had better start facing reality: Europe will eventually be buying zero gas, zero coal and zero oil from Russia. There are plenty of other sources of these, and in any case, Europe is moving gradually towards using less and less of these commodities.

Short-term disruption and difficulty for Europe? Sure, but afterwards what remains of Russia's influence in the world will shrink even further and you'll be left as junior partner to China and very much dependent on their goodwill and custom.

Indeed. It appears each post begins with a “Let me begin by saying Putin is wrong”, followed immediately by a flurry of Putin friendly talking points. How strange.
 
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Aaaaaand there it is.

Don't be fooled, Europeans. Raoul (and the other American mods here) is laughing his ass off at you all. This whole "won't anyone think of the Ukrainian children!" shtick is vomit-inducing. They're playing you, as they always have.
We Europeans will gladly consume US LNG at a premium if that means less money for rascist regime, don’t you worry. I still didn’t receive from you a detailed answer on how exactly Russia finds workarounds for sanctions, meaning you’re happy to support the fascists at the helm. I don’t think you have a leg to stand on here.
 
Yes, you're right ... or 42%% in nominal terms. But the point stands that the EU's economy is huge and in no way depends, contrary to the claim by the poster I replied to, on being bankrolled by America.
Doesn't depend on being bankrolled by America, no, that's wrong. The problem for Europe is that it doesn't produce oil. The US and Russia produce the most amount in the world. One of those is on Europe's doorstep with pipelines installed and the other is thousands of miles across the Atlantic. I get why the EU imposed sanctions on Russia. Present a united front and see what they can do in terms of weakening Russia internally. Problem is that the world's oil supply doesn't just evaporate if the EU launches sanctions. Russia selling a discount currently is still making more than it did last year because of price rises caused by uncertainty which is directly linked to the war and paradoxically also to the sanctions.

China and India are the biggest winners here imo.
 
... There really aren't many sources of non-authoritarian oil. None, really, if you count Venezuela as authoritarian (Qatar is authoritarian). The sanctions don't make a lot of sense beyond sending a message of unity against Russia. Hard to see that holding up as winter comes. ...

However, Qatar and Venezuela have not invaded a European nation, nor are they threatening to do so. Authoritarianism is one thing, fascism is another.

IMO the sanctions will remain in place at least until Putin is gone from office and Russia withdraws its forces to their pre-February 24th positions. If it takes many years, then that's how long the sanctions will stay in place. Putin has severely under-estimated Western resolve, just as he severely under-estimated Ukrainian resolve. And Russia will suffer far worse from the sanctions than will Europe and the West - we've barely begun to see the effects on Russia feed through as yet.
 
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Doesn't depend on being bankrolled by America, no, that's wrong. The problem for Europe is that it doesn't produce oil. The US and Russia produce the most amount in the world. One of those is on Europe's doorstep with pipelines installed and the other is thousands of miles across the Atlantic. I get why the EU imposed sanctions on Russia. Present a united front and see what they can do in terms of weakening Russia internally. Problem is that the world's oil supply doesn't just evaporate if the EU launches sanctions. Russia selling a discount currently is still making more than it did last year because of price rises caused by uncertainty which is directly linked to the war and paradoxically also to the sanctions.

China and India are the biggest winners here imo.
We don’t give a flying feck who’s a biggest beneficiary, understand? As long we don’t support the the fascist regime with money to facilitate the genocide we’re grand. Energy commodity prices won’t be at the levels they’re now for long anyway. Once China starts to consume Russian oil at a massive discount there will be an excess oil in the market due to this switch.
 
However, Qatar and Venezuela have not invaded a European nation, nor are they threatening to do so. Authoritarianism is one thing, fascism is another.

IMO the sanctions will remain in place at least until Putin is gone from office and Russia withdraws to its forces to their pre-February 24th positions. If it takes many years, then that's how long the sanctions will stay in place. Putin has severely under-estimated Western resolve, just as he severely under-estimated Ukrainian resolve. And Russia will suffer far worse from the sanctions than will Europe and the West - we've barely begun to see the effects on Russia feed through as yet.
I don't know. I think internal upheaval will cause cracks. It depends on how good the EU's alternatives are. But if oil/gas rise and keep rising, there won't be much appetite for sanctions among regular people. That's just how the world works. The economy, domestic, matters most. Used to say if gas in the US ever hit $10 a gallon there'd be a revolt. Not expecting a revolt but am expecting renewed efforts to bring this all to a halt before winter.

We don’t give a flying feck who’s a biggest beneficiary, understand? As long we don’t support the the fascist regime with money to facilitate the genocide we’re grand. Energy commodity prices won’t be at the levels they’re now for long anyway.
You don't speak for all of Europe. The alternatives are also somewhat genocidal (seen Saudi Arabia's record recently?). But as I said, I understand why the EU has taken the line it has.
 
I don't know. I think internal upheaval will cause cracks. It depends on how good the EU's alternatives are. But if oil/gas rise and keep rising, there won't be much appetite for sanctions among regular people. That's just how the world works. The economy, domestic, matters most. Used to say if gas in the US ever hit $10 a gallon there'd be a revolt. Not expecting a revolt but am expecting renewed efforts to bring this all to a halt before winter.


You don't speak for all of Europe. The alternatives are also somewhat genocidal (seen Saudi Arabia's record recently?). But as I said, I understand why the EU has taken the line it has.
You’re right, I speak for all the decent Europeans with a right moral compass. That’s good enough for me. It’s your choice which side you want to be on.
 
You’re right, I speak for all the decent Europeans. That’s good enough for me. It’s your choice which side you want to be on.
Decency has nothing to do with it. How are you more decent if you use Saudi oil instead of Russian? There's a genocidal war in Yemen, too.

It's about the basic cost of living. There's a pragmatic element which comes into play because people aren't going to accept an endless decline for the sake of the Ukrainian war effort against Russia. That's the reality. All wars start off popular and eventually become unpopular. This will be no different. Not because Russia will have its reputation restored but because of the enormous economic crisis looming on the horizon which isn't just related to this war but is made worse by it.
 
Well, we didn’t send them MLRS and HIMARS for nothing
Yeah, think that was to see how much Ukraine can win over next couple of months. To put them in best possible position for when negotiation starts. I think the next month is the most crucial one.
 
Yeah, think that was to see how much Ukraine can win over next couple of months. To put them in best possible position for when negotiation starts. I think the next month is the most crucial one.
They are definitely systems built for the offensive. Hopefully they’ll be put to good use. It’ll be more than a month though before they’re in service, if they’re just now training on them.
 
They are definitely systems built for the offensive. Hopefully they’ll be put to good use. It’ll be more than a month though before they’re in service, if they’re just now training on them.
Could they not embed a few mercenary types with the requisite know-how? Maybe deploy quicker?
 
Decency has nothing to do with it. How are you more decent if you use Saudi oil instead of Russian? There's a genocidal war in Yemen, too.

It's about the basic cost of living. There's a pragmatic element which comes into play because people aren't going to accept an endless decline for the sake of the Ukrainian war effort against Russia. That's the reality. All wars start off popular and eventually become unpopular. This will be no different. Not because Russia will have its reputation restored but because of the enormous economic crisis looming on the horizon which isn't just related to this war but is made worse by it.
We can sacrifice our way of living, I can guarantee you that majority will support and no amount of Russian trolls will help to shift a public perception, significantly. You’re doing your job though I understand. Ukraine will win long before any economic crisis.
 
We can sacrifice our way of living, I can guarantee you that majority will support and no amount of Russian trolls will help to shift a public perception. You’re doing your job though I understand.
You're living in a fantasy if you believe that people's willingness to sacrifice living standards for what, for most, is a foreign war has no end. And not everyone who disgrees with you is a troll or Russian troll.
 
You're living in a fantasy if you believe that people's willingness to sacrifice living standards for what, for most, is a foreign war has no end. And not everyone who disgrees with you is a troll or Russian troll.
Ukraine will win this long before Europe will feel any significant economic crisis besides what’s already materializing. The cut off from Russian oil is forecasted to have a really small GDP slowdown in terms of EU economic growth.
 
We can sacrifice our way of living, I can guarantee you that majority will support and no amount of Russian trolls will help to shift a public perception, significantly. You’re doing your job though I understand. Ukraine will win long before any economic crisis.

Michael isn't a troll, and certainly not a Russian one.
 
Ukraine will win this long before Europe will feel any significant economic crisis besides what’s already materializing. The cut off from Russian oil is forecasted to have a really small GDP slowdown in terms of EU economic growth.
Possible. That would mean pushing the Russians back to pre-Feb positions. I think if this war goes on for a long time you would see that, or something close to it, because of the land Russia has taken. They won't be able to hold it all and insurgency is guaranteed. But what they need are quick gains. I don't think time is on their side, in terms of economic factors. Not that Russia will be doing great in a few months economically either, but the gas supply to Europe in winter becomes much more crucial than it is now. Plus the food supply.

Long-term Europe can manage a move away from Russian oil but it's just about time again and comes back down to battlefield/economic conditions.

I never called him one, he’s just a useful idiot of which there are plenty.
Everyone is a useful idiot if we get into that game. Best left alone.
 
Possible. That would mean pushing the Russians back to pre-Feb positions. I think if this war goes on for a long time you would see that, or something close to it, because of the land Russia has taken. They won't be able to hold it all and insurgency is guaranteed. But what they need are quick gains. I don't think time is on their side, in terms of economic factors. Not that Russia will be doing great in a few months economically either, but the gas supply to Europe in winter becomes much more crucial than it is now. Plus the food supply.

Long-term Europe can manage a move away from Russian oil but it's just about time again and comes back down to battlefield/economic conditions.


Everyone is a useful idiot if we get into that game. Best left alone.
You see I don’t get into the topics I’m not familiar with to not propagate the misleading information despite your best efforts to turn this into whataboutism again. On this topic you have been constantly on the worng side of it from the beginning because of how little you understand Russian regime.
 
You see I don’t get into the topics I’m not familiar with to not propagate the misleading information despite your best efforts to turn this into whataboutism again. On this topic you have been constantly on the worng side of it from the beginning because of how little you understand Russian regime.
None of this has been whataboutism and anyone following the news knows what the economic forecast is.
 
None of this has been whataboutism and anyone following the news knows what the economic forecast is.
Really? The moment I mentioned the genocide done by Russians you have been quick to point to Saudis without me ever mentioning them as an alternative source of oil.
 
You're living in a fantasy if you believe that people's willingness to sacrifice living standards for what, for most, is a foreign war has no end. And not everyone who disgrees with you is a troll or Russian troll.
Nope, but you're one hell of a cynical bit choosing to shit on the West in this particular context. Your moral compass is just so wrong that I'd be surprised if you find your way out of a parking lot.
 
Really? The moment I mentioned the genocide done by Russians you have been quick to point to Saudis without me ever mentioning them as an alternative source of oil.
Yes, you spoke about not supporting genocidal fascist regimes. In the context of oil supply, that's not a great line to take as there aren't many OPEC (OPEC+) members which aren't some form of authoritarian. All the largest members are.

We don’t give a flying feck who’s a biggest beneficiary, understand? As long we don’t support the the fascist regime with money to facilitate the genocide we’re grand.
You’re right, I speak for all the decent Europeans with a right moral compass. That’s good enough for me. It’s your choice which side you want to be on.
My point was pretty basic:
Decency has nothing to do with it. How are you more decent if you use Saudi oil instead of Russian? There's a genocidal war in Yemen, too.

It's about the basic cost of living. There's a pragmatic element which comes into play because people aren't going to accept an endless decline for the sake of the Ukrainian war effort against Russia. That's the reality. All wars start off popular and eventually become unpopular. This will be no different. Not because Russia will have its reputation restored but because of the enormous economic crisis looming on the horizon which isn't just related to this war but is made worse by it.



What he says.

I don't have the energy to quote back and forward because you or someone else isn't happy with reality.

Nope, but you're one hell of a cynical bit choosing to shit on the West in this particular context. Your moral compass is just so wrong that I'd be surprised if you find your way out of a parking lot.
How am I shitting on the West by pointing out very basic and realistic facts? Which points exactly are anti-Western? The ones where I say non-western countries, including Russia, are authoritarian? You're as ridiculous as ever.

It's a very basic economic issue as is being highlighted, now, by all major western news outlets. The tweet above is from newsweek.

Read this for more context (pro-Western FA):

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/saudi-arabia/2022-06-03/bowing-prince
 
I never called him one, he’s just a useful idiot of which there are plenty.

He reminds me of that pro-guns guy John Lott, with whom Piers Morgan clashed really hard on CNN in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre. I despise Piers as the next guy does, but I was fully behind him on that issue at the time. Lott was just a total bellend trying to come up with fake equivalency.

Fact remains that Russia just does not deserve to have any of its reputation restored until the remnants of Putin's regime and other war criminals are either imprisoned for their crimes or exiled. It will take as long as it has to, but that grave was dug from the moment the first shot was fired.
 
You're living in a fantasy if you believe that people's willingness to sacrifice living standards for what, for most, is a foreign war has no end. And not everyone who disgrees with you is a troll or Russian troll.

This is not a foreign war. This is a European war and a pretty big one. Europe has to wake up and sort it out. If we don't want to do it militarily (which we probably should have ages ago to prevent this whole thing dragging out like it has) , then we have to do it economically and take the hit.

If Putin gets his way, there is going to be high tension in the EU between Eastern and Western Europe for a long time to come. In that scenario, Brexit might be the best thing the UK has ever done.
 
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Decency has nothing to do with it. How are you more decent if you use Saudi oil instead of Russian? There's a genocidal war in Yemen, too.

Europeans have to defend against the Russians in Europe, because Russia is attacking a country in Europe. Ukraine wanted to join EU, and the EU has to defend Ukraine.

If the Saudis are attacking Yemen, the Muslim countries around Yemen have the responsibility to do something about it. Since they do nothing, it is perfectly fine if the Europeans also do nothing.
 
Thank you for writing this. Because yes, the lengthy post I wrote in the Newbies section very clearly stated that I do NOT support Putin (I wrote about the sense of bewilderment that existed here in St Petersburg in the days after February 24th, and how almost everyone here has either a friend, relative or colleague over in Ukraine in danger of getting shelled by Russian bombs now), I wrote that Putin's stupid, rambling, hour-long faux-intellectual lecture on Ukraine's legitimacy as a sovereign state falls apart if you go further back than his convenient starting point of 1922, I wrote about how his promise to de-Nazify Ukraine of its Jewish-installed (Kolomoiskiy) Jewish president was dumber than sh*t, and - it may not have been here but it was certainly somewhere online, I'll write it now anyway - ANY moral authority Putin may have ever felt he had over 'the West' and its war-mongering was napalmed when his bombs killed Ukrainian children in - among many other places - the theatre at Mariupol.

Let me state clearly: Putin is in the wrong here. And I don't write that because of any childish moral bullying in this thread about "you're defending war crimes!", but because my entire reason for posting on this forum having only lurked on the forum for 8 years was to offer a perspective that simply isn't getting posted here, but it needs to be. All I have done is offer my opinion on why Putin is going to win this war. And for that, I've been publicly called a "c*nt" by that guy who announced he's putting me on ignore (what is it with proponents of 'freedom and tolerance' and instantly shutting themselves off from alternate viewpoints while calling people "c*nts"? Is this what Western liberal democracy looks like these days? Is this what you're calling upon Russia to become?).

Europe does actually need to start at least considering that Putin is going to win this. And that in the years to come they are going to have extraordinary economic problems because of the decisions they are making now out of emotion and not calm analysis. I'll say what I said earlier: for all the US and the UK are congratulating the EU for irreversibly cutting themselves off from Russian energy (because it suits the US and UK economically that Europe is doing this; Boris Johnson in particular can't believe his luck in how utterly stupid his old enemy the EU is being right now), the US is still quietly buying all it needs from Russia, including Uranium.

Europe needs to ask itself this question: what would America do now if they were in our position? And the answer would be: not this. This is a country that a month after Saudi Arabia chopped up Khashoggi was selling half a billion dollars of weapons to the regime that did it so they could bomb Yemeni civilians. It's a country that invaded Grenada over a fruit company and Panama over a canal. And I don't write that in any condemnatory way but just as a fact. America is as successful and as powerful as it is because everything it does is in its economic interests. They never make cataclysmic decisions based on emotion or morality. Yet Germany is currently doing that very thing. As is France. And as is Italy. Last week the Prime Minister of Latvia was asked about potential economic problems for his country if the 6th round of Russian sanctions went though. You know what he said? "It's only money". An astonishing reply (but more understandable when you recognise that Eastern Europe's hopeful economic strategy is: "the United States will continue to bankroll us until the end of time"). Can you imagine an American politican saying that? "Sure our people are ready to suffer on behalf of another country, it's only money!" His career would be over the next day. This is a country whose elections are essentially decided on gas prices, not morality.

So my points here have been twofold. Firstly, Putin is going to win this war and it is long past time Europe starts to at least entertain this idea and figure out what will come next. And secondly, the prosperity that Western Europe - in particular Germany - has seen over the last 30 years has been due to their supposedly "unreliable" (and oh by the way unremittingly constant) flow of cheap Russian energy (CNN today had an article about how Europe is going to see a shift from the West to the East in terms of power dynamics within the EU). Without this, Germany would not have become the industrial powerhouse it is today. A decade from now Germany and France will be shells of what they were even 5 years ago in terms of the power and influence they have over European politics and business (don't forget, the politically friendless UK is hovering like a vulture ready to swoop in and feed off the EU's weakness). It is a misconception that non-Europeans have that the EU is a united bloc that helps each other out. It isn't, they are all suspicious rivals of one another (you'll notice how silent Poland and Bulgaria have fallen over the last week now that all these Ukrainian refugees are starting to complain about conditions). Putin knows this and is going to create havoc on the European continent in the years to come. And trust me, America is laughing its ass off right now at what Europe is doing, I mean their insane self-sabotage and willingness to float mouth-first onto a massive US energy hook. America is going to profit enormously from this war in the long term which is why they are going to do everything they can to prolong it, against the stated wishes of France and Germany, who will suffer most from it.

Finally: in an earlier post on here I said Donbas would fall to Russia by the end of June. I was mocked for writing it. Today the UK Ministry of Defence projected that Russia will take all of Luhansk within the next 2 weeks and after that Donesk will soon fall. You see, unlike Glaston's tweets, my posts on here are actually based on sober analysis of what's actually going on. For this I'm prepared to be unpopular but I'm not sure I warrant the "war-crime endorsing c*nt" epithet.


So, what you are saying is that, in your opinion, Putin is bad, but he is a winner, so Europe should just accept it and instead of trying to beat him, Europe should stop helping Ukraine defend against Russia and make a deal with Putin.

Also USA is selfish, and since USA did not punish Saudi Arabia for killing Khashoggi, a US citizen, it is understandable if Europe does not punish Russia for killing a few hundred thousand Ukrainians and destroying a European country. After all, Europe can make a lot of money helping Putin.


In my opinion, this kind of thinking is much worse than just saying straight out that Putin is right, like paxi did. Paxi was saying that Putin did not kill children, this says that Putin is killing children but let's forget it because Europe can make money if we help Putin. Paxi was just brainwashed, this opinion is pure evil.
 
Europeans have to defend against the Russians in Europe, because Russia is attacking a country in Europe. Ukraine wanted to join EU, and the EU has to defend Ukraine.

If the Saudis are attacking Yemen, the Muslim countries around Yemen have the responsibility to do something about it. Since they do nothing, it is perfectly fine if the Europeans also do nothing.

Pretty sure Iran is helping Yemen...it's not "fine" to do nothing about Yemen. But being wankers ref Yemen doesn't make it correct to also be wankers ref Ukraine. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.
 
Putin thinks he can outlast the west. He thinks this because he has to, it is all he has. It is another of his miscalculations about russian strength. Russia's strategic weakness only grows the longer this goes on and while he might be blind to it, others in his regime won't be.
 
So, what you are saying is that, in your opinion, Putin is bad, but he is a winner, so Europe should just accept it and instead of trying to beat him, Europe should stop helping Ukraine defend against Russia and make a deal with Putin.

Also USA is selfish, and since USA did not punish Saudi Arabia for killing Khashoggi, a US citizen, it is understandable if Europe does not punish Russia for killing a few hundred thousand Ukrainians and destroying a European country. After all, Europe can make a lot of money helping Putin.


In my opinion, this kind of thinking is much worse than just saying straight out that Putin is right, like paxi did. Paxi was saying that Putin did not kill children, this says that Putin is killing children but let's forget it because Europe can make money if we help Putin. Paxi was just brainwashed, this opinion is pure evil.

You've got to love the incredulity at someone saying "it's only money" when talking about helping to stop a country being wiped out. Money, a made up construct of man which can be created out of thin air. War and death, pretty bad, pretty irreversible.