Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Cloud7 said:
These poor souls are being manipulated by propaganda and/or being forced to do this though. They aren't responsible for their own actions. We should feel sorry for them.
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It's absolutely disgusting and the people committing these atrocities are obviously beyond repair and deserve everything that's coming for them. Still, there are also reports about Russian soldiers don't even knowing where they were heading or that they were going to fight a war, wondering why they are attacking their relatives in Ukraine and so forth. Nobody is defending what's been described in that tweet, nobody at all. You have to be a psychopath to do such stuff.

Our point is rather, every human being is a blank canvas when he's born. Maybe not completely blank as everybody has his character tendencies but the largest part of who we are is down to our upbringing and external influences. Everyone of us could be one of them if we were unlucky enough to be bornj in their stead. There's actually not even any room to argue otherwise unless you want to suggest that committing atrocities is ingrained in their genetics - and I'm sure you don't want to do that.

And that's important to understand because first, it is an enabler to see the roots of the conflict and take measures to prevent that something like this happens again and even more importantly in the short term, it helps us understand the enemy and his weaknesses and which triggers you can pull to demoralize his army and to foresee how he will behave in the future.
 
shamans said:
I will answer to you that I see your point. I empathize with locals that get caught up with this as the punishment seems too intense and indeed a violation of right and so on. However, when it comes to national security you can't take risks. It's a sensitive time.

This is also why it sometimes annoys me when folks in cozy western nations scream "censorship!!!" at any behavior of this sort by governments. Sometimes you have to take a tough stance on national security.
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That's fair, as I replied to CR, "I understand the ukranian perspective, they're living it, so they don't have the luxury of pondering about potential abuses"
 
GlastonSpur said:
Regarding those who oppose the letter Z, Russian state TV is now talking about no mercy, including concentration camps, "re-education" and sterilisation.

I can't post the clip because it is part of a much longer video.
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Military target. Seems like Kharkiv still within shelling range.
 
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Raoul said:
Its actually to somewhat heartening to hear the progressive desperation in Russian propaganda, as its indicative of a level of growing instability between state and public.
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Agreed. True colours in the open for all. The non stop Nuke chat has lost all it's threat as well, Putin is the boy who cried wolf.
 
Raoul said:
Its actually to somewhat heartening to hear the desperation in Russian propaganda, as its indicative of a level of growing instability between state and public.
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Yes, it also makes them sound like little, impoverished North Korea rather than a putative superpower. Desperate (if abhorrent) stuff.
 
BayernFan87 said:
That's just incredible and disgusting.

The more you read about stories like that the more you have the impression that is really isn't only Putins war. I'm not saying the majority of Russians support this but there are clearly many, many soldiers who are not only following commands but enjoy what they are doing...
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We can no longer speak of WW2 German soldiers attempting to deny war crimes by pinning it on orders anymore. Those Russian soldiers here have a serious problem from the moment they say they are enjoying this crap. It's right there on tape for this one and it directly implies several others.

What disgusts me even more though is how the mother is okay with this stuff and will go as far as to believe that the enemy are subhumans. It may only be one case of a very dysfunctional parent, but that is very concerning if more parents of active Russian soldiers are like that mother. I don't think that many American parents seeing their sons or daughters off to war would ever have been fine with such level of barbarity towards any enemy, not even in the aftermath of 9/11 and the trauma it left behind.
 
maniak said:
I don't want to get in too deep, because maybe the ukranian soldiers know something about this man that wasn't in the report. They way they portrayed it was "the ukranians are even going after people who share russian views on social media".

If it was just that, it just doesn't sit right with me, no matter the circumstances.
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"no matter the circumstances"? Are you serious? If someone attacks you in an alley and says he is going to kill you, you can use any means necessary to defend yourself. Circumstances matter.

Stop trying to find excuses to blame the victims. Their country has been bombarded for over two months now, while they cannot bombard Russian towns in retaliation. Ukraine is definitely the victim in this war, and there is no point trying to blemish the victim.
 
frostbite said:
"no matter the circumstances"? Are you serious? If someone attacks you in an alley and says he is going to kill you, you can use any means necessary to defend yourself. Circumstances matter.

Stop trying to find excuses to blame the victims. Their country has been bombarded for over two months now, while they cannot bombard Russian towns in retaliation. Ukraine is definitely the victim in this war, and there is no point trying to blemish the victim.
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Are you feeling ok? What the feck are you on about?
 
With the amount of resources western powers have, how has no one been able to poison Putin? Surely it shouldn't be a question of morals. One life of a crazy man vs thousands of innocents?
 
shamans said:
With the amount of resources western powers have, how has no one been able to poison Putin? Surely it shouldn't be a question of morals. One life of a crazy man vs thousands of innocents?
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Same way we never poisoned Castro. Difficult to get someone / turn someone in that tight circle at the upper echelon of staff.
 
calodo2003 said:
Same way we never poisoned Castro. Difficult to get someone / turn someone in that tight circle at the upper echelon of staff.
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Billions are spent on military aid. Everyone has a price. Surely $300 million to a close member isn't that big of a deal. Also, the precision in some of the modern weaponry out there is insane. Things you can fit in a pocket to carry out the task. I feel it can't be an issue logistically.
 
shamans said:
Billions are spent on military aid. Everyone has a price. Surely $300 million to a close member isn't that big of a deal. Also, the precision in some of the modern weaponry out there is insane. Things you can fit in a pocket to carry out the task. I feel it can't be an issue logistically.
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I agree, we should be able to undertake something that has massive plausible deniability. Until then we have to hope for a successful von Stauffenberg.
 
shamans said:
Billions are spent on military aid. Everyone has a price. Surely $300 million to a close member isn't that big of a deal. Also, the precision in some of the modern weaponry out there is insane. Things you can fit in a pocket to carry out the task. I feel it can't be an issue logistically.
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Look at how many times Putin himself failed to poison his opponents with undetectable military-grade chemical weapons.

And you do realize that it’s $300 mil (which isn’t an overwhelmingly lot for his close circle) for a suicide mission as, if caught, this person never gets out of there alive.
 
maniak said:
Well, I guess I'm in the minority then. I'll just leave at that. If I happen to find the report I'll post it here, maybe there's something more to it that what the reporter said. If it was just for posting shit on facebook, It just sounds extremely abusive.
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I'm pretty sure a thread like this, considering both the length and the topic, self selects for people with authoritarian tendencies and people fascinated with wars. I think if we were to look at the forum more broadly it would be different.
 
harms said:
Look at how many times Putin himself failed to poison his opponents with undetectable military-grade chemical weapons.

And you do realize that it’s $300 mil (which isn’t an overwhelmingly lot for his close circle) for a suicide mission as, if caught, this person never gets out of there alive.
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Don't know, I just feel it's an easier target than the current stalemate of innocent people just dying but what do I know.
 
shamans said:
Billions are spent on military aid. Everyone has a price. Surely $300 million to a close member isn't that big of a deal. Also, the precision in some of the modern weaponry out there is insane. Things you can fit in a pocket to carry out the task. I feel it can't be an issue logistically.
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What’s your theory for why it hasn’t happened?
 
maniak said:
Are you feeling ok? What the feck are you on about?
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Wasn’t your previous post in this thread about a Russian acquaintance being refused service in a London restaurant (something I have not heard from any Russian acquaintances in Western Europe)? Given the overwhelmingly black and white nature of this conflict, it’s somewhat strange you seem more focused on “victims” on the invader’s side.
 
shamans said:
Fear. Socially not acceptable. If it leaks that they did it, it will be chaos and legitimize Putin.
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If you think that Putin is alone in this, then you are mistaken. He wouldn't be able to govern if he was alone. He has a lot of followers and true believers. For 20+ years, he is the master of the Russian state and the Russian mafia. I am sure that during that time he has handpicked all the people around him, and he has tried their loyalty multiple times. All people around him are rich because of their relationship with Putin, and there is as much blood on their hands as is on Putin's and some of these people are much worse and much more bloodthirsty than Putin. And if Putin dies, all those around him will lose a lot, too.

So, it is not just a matter of someone offering money to kill Putin. As it wasn't for Hitler or Stalin. It is just not easy to do it, no matter how much money you offer. These people have a lot of loyal security around them.
 
I have the feeling that even with all the news that the UA army is detroying this and that and nothing from the RA, and all the positive and no negative, when i see maps and comments i only see gains from the RA and barely gains for the UA besides the botch attempt in kiyv.

What is the real developement of the war? Is RA winning? The UA? Or there is stalling positions?
 
Some info about US artillery:





So it's already in action, more is coming, and the training is ongoing. Will get ugly for Russia.
 
4bars said:
I have the feeling that even with all the news that the UA army is detroying this and that and nothing from the RA, and all the positive and no negative, when i see maps and comments i only see gains from the RA and barely gains for the UA besides the botch attempt in kiyv.

What is the real developement of the war? Is RA winning? The UA? Or there is stalling positions?
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I guess the frontlines are simply very slow-moving. The Ukrainians might trade land here and there to stretch the Russians and then start a counter-attack (defend in depth).

Also, Ukraine doesn't seem to have massive offensive capabilities, so they're still waging a defensive style of war out of necessity.

That's the impression I currently have.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Wasn’t your previous post in this thread about a Russian acquaintance being refused service in a London restaurant (something I have not heard from any Russian acquaintances in Western Europe)? Given the overwhelmingly black and white nature of this conflict, it’s somewhat strange you seem more focused on “victims” on the invader’s side.
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The conflict itself is black and white, no doubt about it, the russians are the bad guys and ukranians are the victims. I just feel more compelled to comment about something a few dozen people before me haven't commented on yet, because I'd basically be saying the same thing.

You won't find a post from me blaming any ukranian victims, which was what the post I commented on suggested I was doing. A bit offensive to be honest.
 
4bars said:
I have the feeling that even with all the news that the UA army is detroying this and that and nothing from the RA, and all the positive and no negative, when i see maps and comments i only see gains from the RA and barely gains for the UA besides the botch attempt in kiyv.

What is the real developement of the war? Is RA winning? The UA? Or there is stalling positions?
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The Donbas front seems to be mostly stalling and turned into a war of attrition. With the influx of more (and more sophisticated compared to their Russian opponents) western heavy weapons Ukraine should be able to hold their positions until the Russian attack just collapses like we have seen in Kiyv.

Also interesting is Snake Island where Ukraine executed several drone attacks (since the Moskva is done, there are no more long range air defense capabilities in the area). They might try to recapture that island and by doing that essentially open up the western Black Sea and therefore the shipping route to Odesa.

On the negative Russia was performing strikes all over Ukraine, mostly on traffic infrastructure, seems to be an attempt to slow down their logistics. Let's hope it doesn't affect Ukraine too much.
 
Kofman & Alperovitch seem to think full mobilization probably won't happen. From a risk/benefit calculus it doesn't make sense.

 
maniak said:
The conflict itself is black and white, no doubt about it, the russians are the bad guys and ukranians are the victims. I just feel more compelled to comment about something a few dozen people before me haven't commented on yet, because I'd basically be saying the same thing.

You won't find a post from me blaming any ukranian victims, which was what the post I commented on suggested I was doing. A bit offensive to be honest.
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What you are doing is meaningless. Perhaps you misunderstand what is going on in real life.

Try to understand what a big war like this means in reality, not in imagination. During a war, all the worse scum of society try to gain whatever they can. This is true in all wars, in all populations. I am sure there are scum Ukrainians, too. During normal times, in Ukraine (as in any country) there are people who steal, who murder, who rape, and of course there are police officers who overstep the proper boundaries. Do those people disappear during a war? On the contrary, the scum is more free to do whatever shit they were doing before, exactly because of the war. So, every problem becomes worse in a war. The reason for this war is Russia, and we should blame Russia for any of that, too! There is absolutely no point trying to find problems in Ukrainian society, this is irrelevant now (and I mean for us, the external observers). It is like talking about someone's bad haircut when we know they have terminal cancer.
 
frostbite said:
What you are doing is meaningless. Perhaps you misunderstand what is going on in real life.

Try to understand what a big war like this means in reality, not in imagination. During a war, all the worse scum of society try to gain whatever they can. This is true in all wars, in all populations. I am sure there are scum Ukrainians, too. During normal times, in Ukraine (as in any country) there are people who steal, who murder, who rape, and of course there are police officers who overstep the proper boundaries. Do those people disappear during a war? On the contrary, the scum is more free to do whatever shit they were doing before, exactly because of the war. So, every problem becomes worse in a war. The reason for this war is Russia, and we should blame Russia for any of that, too! There is absolutely no point trying to find problems in Ukrainian society, this is irrelevant now (and I mean for us, the external observers). It is like talking about someone's bad haircut when we know they have terminal cancer.
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It was a two line observation on a football forum that in no way excused anything done by the russians nor placed any blame on ukranian victims.
 
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