Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

dal said:
I’m merely pointing out that article 5 is nonsense.
Click to expand...

Only if you're talking in absolutes though and even then is what you describe "armed attack"?

Article 5 is mainly principle based and isn't so specific as to when it's triggered. For instance any response doesn't need to be a military response so the current actions could easily have fallen under it.

On the flip side it's been invoked well beyond it's remit several times so yeah there is freedom to invoke as they wish. I don't agree that's them hiding behind it though, if anything it's been used quietly to expand NATO forces in the baltics for years now.
 
dal said:
I’m merely pointing out that article 5 is nonsense.
Click to expand...
It is not nonsense. But like all laws and rules it is hugely dependent on the power to be and their willingness to enact some policies.

If the UK had invoked article 5, Trump would have played it down and undermined the whole NATO alliance, it wasn’t a smart play back then.
 
Pintu said:
It is not nonsense. But like all laws and rules it is hugely dependent on the power to be and their willingness to enact some policies.

If the UK had invoked article 5, Trump would have played it down and undermined the whole NATO alliance, it wasn’t a smart play back then.
Click to expand...

You’ve basically said it’s nonsense, so an attack on one member isn’t an attack on all because it comes down to the appetite of each leader to engage in a joint mission and it will do going forward.

I hope a peaceful resolution is found soon regardless, it’s just mindless and heartless.
 
dal said:
You’ve basically said it’s nonsense, so an attack on one member isn’t an attack on all because it comes down to the appetite of each leader to engage in a joint mission and it will do going forward.

I hope a peaceful resolution is found soon regardless, it’s just mindless and heartless.
Click to expand...

I said Trump was a clown. And of course Estonia can’t force the US to fully respect its commitments.

I know it might seem excessive for Biden to take the US to serious war on behalf of a small European country but at the same time there are massive stakes, if Biden were to ignore a military attack on a NATO member he would be harming the alliance’s credibility and sending his enemies (Russia and China) a message of weakness that he can’t afford.
 
Sarni said:
Some heavy bombing quite close to Poland border in recent days (15-20 km away). They've also been targeting groups where foreign volunteers where, the Canadian guy I drove to the border less than two weeks ago is returning already as it got too tense (probably a good decision).
Click to expand...

I wonder what exactly these guys were expecting in their heads when they went out there?
 
africanspur said:
I wonder what exactly these guys were expecting in their heads when they went out there?
Click to expand...

I have asked myself the same question, particularly when they are not protected by the Geneva conventions.
 
dal said:
I’m merely pointing out that article 5 is nonsense.
Click to expand...
Your understanding of it is nonsense. Have you read article 5?

Article 5

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.”

This article is complemented by Article 6, which stipulates:

Article 61

“For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.”
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
africanspur said:
I wonder what exactly these guys were expecting in their heads when they went out there?
Click to expand...
Apparently some British volunteer returned to the UK and the gist of his comments was that he underestimated Russia. He had Iraq/Afghanistan in his mind, but turned up to meet a conventional military. Which I guess...was a reality check for them.
 
This Youtuber & the elderly lady in the video claimed Ukrainian army planted a false flag attack in one of the villages.
I don’t see much in it. Better for Ukrainian officials to look into it.

 
africanspur said:
I wonder what exactly these guys were expecting in their heads when they went out there?
Click to expand...
The guy I was driving was planning to do strictly humanitarian work initially, and keep close to the western border where it felt it would have been safer. He was basically driving around picking people from eastern villages and getting them to the border. He always maintained he would return when it became dangerous, he just didn’t think it would be that fast.

A lot of people who wanted to go there that I spoke too were actually expecting to go straight on to frontline and from what I’m hearing many of them are also returning right now.

I reckon out of the rumored 20k less than 20% will be left after a month. For many of these guys Ukraine would be tough this time of year even without war.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I've been looking at some YouTube alt-right channels. They're full of excuses for Putin's invasion. It goes to show that these American "patriots" (as they loudly like to proclaim themselves) support tyranny and dictatorship over genuine freedom and democracy.

But I guess we already knew that, their being part of the Trump-cult.
Click to expand...

I think there is a strongman image to the Putin admiration of these people based on this notion that he is the most powerful leader in the world who doesn't subscribe to "wokeness" but has a governing philosophy based on ancestral Christian traditions. I noticed it first a few months ago when he got a lot of praise among the alt-right brigade for his comments on transgender people.

Cheimoon said:
I'm thinking both sides primary thinking is that they profoundly dislike the establishment of powers in 'the west', and that they are therefore happy to distort their minds to support whoever challenges that - in this case Putin. Cause ideologically, Putin is far on the right, there is absolutely nothing for a leftist to like (except if you didn't notice that the USSR was disbanded).
Click to expand...

Someone I know fits in this category. He told me he wants things to break up because it will be the catalyst for some revolution to spring out of the destruction. Hence he supports brexit, supports Russia in this conflict (because if they win in getting their aims NATO and the EU is redundant) etc. Funnily when I asked if he supports Scotland independence suddenly he's not so keen on a breakaway.
 
africanspur said:
I wonder what exactly these guys were expecting in their heads when they went out there?
Click to expand...
JPRouve said:
I have asked myself the same question, particularly when they are not protected by the Geneva conventions.
Click to expand...
Most are ex military. I would be surprised if they don't know what they are getting themselves into. They are thinking fk Putin and Russians killing women and children thats what they are thinking
 
This story is just sad https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60734706

2500 killed in Mariupol so far officially, probably more due to starvation. My opinion means nothing and isn't popular, but I can see that sort of destruction occuring in other towns throughout Ukraine that resist. At some point you have to ask is it worth all the death.. life under Putin is shit but it's still a life.
 
africanspur said:
I wonder what exactly these guys were expecting in their heads when they went out there?
Click to expand...
A lot of them have a sudden appreciation for their "boring" way of living and have done the right thing and go back, their presence would have been a hindrance anyway. Another group is combat veterans who know exactly what to expect. A third is is current operators who have the plausible deniability cover now.
 
I'm thinking we should liquidate the £340 billion of the Russian Central Banks reserves to pay Ukraine for all the damages this war has cost, as well as refund all the companies who have had their assets stolen by Russia.

These guys just do what they want.
 
marktan said:
This story is just sad https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60734706

2500 killed in Mariupol so far officially, probably more due to starvation. My opinion means nothing and isn't popular, but I can see that sort of destruction occuring in other towns throughout Ukraine that resist. At some point you have to ask is it worth all the death.. life under Putin is shit but it's still a life.
Click to expand...

It’s a question of choosing hills to die on. This is a very worthy hill for lots of Ukrainians for a lot of reasons, surrender if anything makes everyone who sacrificed so far pointless.

Many see life under the kind of suppression Putin brings as no life at all.
 
spiriticon said:
I'm thinking we should liquidate the £340 billion of the Russian Central Banks reserves to pay Ukraine for all the damages this war has cost, as well as refund all the companies who have had their assets stolen by Russia.

These guys just do what they want.
Click to expand...
This is definitely what should and I think will happen at the end of the day. Russia has inflicted the damage for the amount close to that by his point anyway.
 
marktan said:
This story is just sad https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60734706

2500 killed in Mariupol so far officially, probably more due to starvation. My opinion means nothing and isn't popular, but I can see that sort of destruction occuring in other towns throughout Ukraine that resist. At some point you have to ask is it worth all the death.. life under Putin is shit but it's still a life.
Click to expand...
I don't know your background but being from a country which was under rule of another for a lot of its history, you realise freedom is definitely worth fighting for (although not when I was alive).

There people are not being lied to, they willingly resist and are paying the price.

Seems like some in the West are happy to make a compromise in their name but sometimes humanity stands still until enough sacrifice themselves.

Also consider what happens if Putin takes over. A lot of murders that are public now will happen behind closed doors.
 
VorZakone said:
Click to expand...

Can’t help but think that the US and allies view Ukraine as already lost now from a military and humanitarian perspective and this is more of a warning to the Ukrainians than anyone else.

The warnings to Russia from NATO are basically don’t dare touch NATO territory and understand that as long as you hold your position in Ukraine, you will be under crippling sanctions.
 
Pexbo said:
Can’t help but think that the US and allies view Ukraine as already lost now from a military and humanitarian perspective and this is more of a warning to the Ukrainians than anyone else.

The warnings to Russia from NATO are basically don’t dare touch NATO territory and understand that as long as you hold your position in Ukraine, you will be under crippling sanctions.
Click to expand...
Cant see any indication that they view Ukraine even remotely as "lost".
 
A sad story from Italy today - a coach has overturned, it was full of refugees who'd come overland into Italy. They were very close to their destination here, Pescara on the Adriatric coast. A young mum has died, her two little kids are now alone in a strange country.

They were safe, and then everything goes very wrong in an instant.
 
marktan said:
This story is just sad https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60734706

2500 killed in Mariupol so far officially, probably more due to starvation. My opinion means nothing and isn't popular, but I can see that sort of destruction occuring in other towns throughout Ukraine that resist. At some point you have to ask is it worth all the death.. life under Putin is shit but it's still a life.
Click to expand...
Surely an agreement wouldn't be a life under Putin (would be the recognition of Crimea and some form of ceasefire/recognition of that part of the east already occupied by separatists/Putin). The deal Bennett allegedly told Zelensky to accept was just that, with an added no NATO clause. All of these things were realities before the invasion, so Western Ukraine (the greater part of the country, in fact) will not be under Putin in that peace-deal scenario.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.